Games The Jedi Draft: Reborn

I'm notoriously low on Plagueis in the draft setting compared to my peers, so that's probably a good idea.

 

Okay, time to argue Darth Plagueis vs. Mother Talzin

Okay, so Talzin has two dueling feats:
FEAT 1: A sword/saber duel with Mace Windu that lasts for under two minutes and is pretty inconclusive (Talzin ends up evaporating due to Jar Jar Binks) -- Off Dathomir.
FEAT 2: A solid lightning battle with near-ROTS Sidious (and somewhat Dooku) in which she competes decently but ultimately loses and dies via TCW Grievous -- On Dathomir.

Neither of those are wins. She posts good fights against high-tier opponents but doesn't win. And the people who end up beating her in these fights are a Jar Jar Binks who sucks more than Plo Koon and a TCW Grievous who got his butt handed to him by Kit Fisto and lost to kriffing Gungans. And yes, those incompetents aren't available in the fight and don't really matter to the argument, but I thought it would be at least funny to bring them up.

Additionally, there are contradictory statements regarding how much being on Dathomir affects her power. I'd go with the interpretation that it does seeing as she goes from just competing with Windu off Dathomir to being able to hold her own in a lightning duel with both Sidious and Dooku on it. So, we'll put her around Windu level off Dathomir. (I kind of see her Dathomir/off Dathomir stuff somewhat similar to Kar Vastor's feats regarding Harrun Kal).

Anyways, even if we go solely by the Windu duel it puts her around Windu level. So, is Plagueis good enough to beat someone around that level? I'd say he is -- and here's why.

Plagueis is a solid saber duelist -- he beat a Sith Lord who was personally trained by his former master in the same style of lightsaber dueling that Plagueis uses mid-book. (Well, and the feat of him and a young Palpatine taking out a thousand warriors while armed only with stun sticks without getting hurt). But that's not where his skillset lies -- what Plagueis REALLY excels at is the Force. He's got a pretty impressive feat of atomizing a dozen Maladian mercenaries -- who were part of an order that had previously fought the Jedi -- while wounded.

The best part about Plagueis, however, is his ability at Midi-Chlorian Manipulation. something that he has used to kill with before. He can (and has done) literally manipulate one's midi-chlorians into leaving the body and thus killing the other person -- and he did just that with King Veruna.

IMO, Plagueis is a good enough duelist to contend with Talzin for long enough to use his trademark power. Were this being fought on Dathomir, I wouldn't have even argued this fight. Off it, however, I think Plagueis edges it out by about a very slim margin -- and by very slim, I mean that if this contest was the Baseball HOF voting and winning the matchup was reaching the same 75% benchmark of the writers that is required to get in Plagueis would be like Joe Mauer and get in with only four votes (out of almost 400) to spare from the cut line.

 

I'll probably throw up an argument for Cade tomorrow night.

 

Time to do my write-up for Cade Skywalker vs. the Khai duo

What does Gavar Khai bring to the table here? Losing to an early-series Ben Skywalker? Getting killed by his daughter (and I'll circle back to this later)? Getting his arm chopped up by a Luke Skywalker who was more focused on fighting Sarasu Taalon? Honestly, Gavar Khai kind of sucks -- I'd argue an unprepped Darth Maladi over him and I'm pretty low on Maladi's worth in this draft. That leaves his daughter Vestara as the other combatant. And she's got some decent showings -- killing her father, fighting a solid amount of no-name Lost Tribe Sith alongside Ben Skywalker, briefly holding her own against an avatar of Abeloth, and holding off Jaina Solo for a very short time period.
However, her performance in the Abeloth fight does have some quantifiers which need to be taken into account. They are as follows:

1. She was drawing off a Dark Side Nexus called the Fount of Power for most of the fight -- the Mos Eisley Cantina is definitely not a DS Nexus
2. She was fighting a minor avatar of Abeloth that had only a small bit of her power (the vast majority of Abeloth's force essence was stuck fighting Luke/Krayt Beyond Shadows [which is why I'm so high on Krayt since he was dealing almost as much damage as Luke in that fight against a far more powerful version of Abeloth than the one fought by any of the others])
3. The only reason she survived the fight was because Ben stabbed Abeloth's avatar in the back
4. Tahiri Veila has a better showing alongside Fett against another of Abeloth's avatars

In short, the Abeloth fight has tons of quantifiers that are enough to make my opinion relatively low on Vestara regarding this feat. So that just leaves the short fight against Jaina at the end of the novel. However, that fight is basically two short exchanges of force lightning -- one to knock Ben out of the fight and the other to keep Jaina at bay for the few seconds necessary for Ship to arrive to get Vestara off-planet. Honestly, this fight probably lasted the same amount of time that Darth Maladi spent blasting force lightning at the Muur-possessed Celeste Morne. So really, the Abeloth fight is the best of Vestara's experience and I'm not sure that's enough of a high-end feat to take out Cade.

Finally, let's talk about the chemistry between the duo. Yes, Vestara is Gavar's daughter, but she both betrayed and killed him. I'm not sure Gavar would trust his daughter to have his back in this fight -- and it's kind of hard to fight side-by-side when you can't trust the other person not to betray you.

Now, let's talk about Cade for a bit. He is pretty clearly the most powerful light-sider in the Legacy comics -- and that's including ones who:

• Fought off and killed at least a dozen Sith at the same time (Antares Draco)
• Fighting off Legions of Sith on multiple occasions (also Antares Draco -- although Shado Vao, Wolf Sazen, and Ganner Krieg can also lay claim to this feat)
• Fighting multiple top-tier One Sith in one-on-one duels and surviving (Shado Vao/Wolf Sazen)
• Spending multiple days fighting Sith (the aforementioned four)

Cade's done all that (well, except the fighting and killing at least a dozen Sith at the same time) as well. Additionally, he's defeated pretty much every top-tier One Sith (except Wyyrlok and Krayt) in multiple duels -- even going back to early in the series during his Sith training. Keep in mind that Cade has the telekinetic power to toss the wreckage of a shuttle a massive distance after basically disconnecting himself from the force and being high on death sticks for almost seven years. The only opponent who gave Cade significant trouble was Krayt. Now, Krayt did beat the crap out of Cade in their second fight (before Cade killed him through PIS), but Cade gave Krayt a solid fight the first time they dueled even if Krayt would have eventually been victorious. And I''m quite high on Krayt -- I see him as a first-rounder personally -- so losing to Krayt doesn't drop him that far in my books.

One more thing to keep in mind in this fight is Cade's unique skill set in Dark Transfer -- an ability that can both heal near-fatal wounds and literally kill someone just by a single hand touch. Considering many lightsaber fights involve hand-to-hand combat, this basically means that if Cade gets by either of the Khai's defenses and gets a hand to their chest that they are dead and out of the fight. I'm not seeing enough from the duo to think that they beat Cade -- Gavar's just too much dead weight for Vestara to carry to a win here -- kind of like how Billy Wagner's lack of postseason success was probably a major factor in him just missing (and by just, I mean missing by five votes) the 75% of BBWAA votes needed to enter Cooperstown. In this analogy, the Khai duo represents Billy Wagner, Gavar represents the dead weight of Wagner's 10.03 Postseason ERA (which for you non-baseball fans is absolutely terrible) and Cade represents the 75% threshold of votes needed to enter Cooperstown. Basically, it's a decent fight, but the Khai duo fall just short of beating Cade here. Pair Vestara with Taalon or Viun Gaalan and Cade probably loses though.

(Incidentally, this exact match occurred in the 24th Jedi Draft with Cade emerging victorious)

 

If memory serves me correctly, I believe I was a judge in that draft. Are you about to quote me against me if I'm inconsistent?

 

@Lady_Belligerent It was a baseball analogy, not a basketball one.

 

Any last words, get 'em in. I'll be getting to these tomorrow.

 

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the Kuro-Krayt matchup is a stomp — IMO she gives him a decent fight. Loses every single time, but gives a decent fight. MAYBE if the setting had been on a planet like say Felucia I MIGHT have been willing to argue for Kuro, but on a desert planet that both prevents her from using the best part of the skill set she used in her duel against Vader (manipulating plants to restrain him) and with Krayt being a native of Tatooine and thus knowing the planet better Kuro has no chance.

 

That was also awesome.

 

Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Snoke
Saba Sebatyne vs. Tahiri Veila
Mace Windu vs. Darish Vol
Kyp Durron vs. Jacen Solo

Draco and Krieg TRUMPED with Exar Kun vs. Merrin TRUMPED with Cal Kestis
Darth Bane vs. Anakin Skywalker
Kaan and Kas;im (forfeit) vs. Cal Kestis (forfeit)
Exar Kun (forfeit) vs. Acrann

Darth Plagueis vs. Mother Talzin

Pretty good fight, but she's just on a higher tier, IMO. Another unfortunate case of a character who would be better with prep selected in a draft that doesn't have prep for the individual fights in our pal Plags. There were a whole bunch of those this go-round. Her hanging with the likes of Mace is just too good of a feat, and something he can't match. And I don't see him being able to pull off his "finisher" when she's putting a lot of pressure on him.

(Oh, and you all can irrationally hate the character of Mace Windu all you like, but that's not going to change the fact that I've read Shatterpoint and know the kind of things he's capable of. These are fights, not popularity contests.)

Ezra and Kanan vs. Blackhole

Again, maybe with prep, but the guy simply does not have the concrete feats to take a straight up fight against these two.

Anya Kuro vs. Darth Krayt

Not a slice, but never in doubt.

Cade Skywalker vs. Vestara Khai and Favar Khai

Fun match for sure, but I think peak Cade takes it. Sure, early series junkie Cade would have much, much more trouble here, but this Cade ain't that Cade. I tend to see the Khais to be a level roughly in line with Talon and Nihl. Two Sith that Cade proves to be very much superior to by the end of the series. At least one-on-one. Both at the same time? Yeahhh... I think it's definitely not easy, but he would come out on top. And I feel like it's pretty much that exact outcome against the Khais. Everyone coming into this fight blind about who their opponent is, he's the most skilled fighter in the match, and DEFINITELY the most powerful. Even if he only ended up "winning" in the end due to Krayt's Plot-Induced-Stupidity, he still absolutely TOOK IT to peak War-arc Krayt in a way that I definitely couldn't see the Khais replicating. It's a fun fight, but Cade is too much for them.

Cere Junda vs. Starkiller
Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Eldon Ax
Leia Organa Solo vs. Darth Malak
Shaak Ti (forfeit) vs. Darth Nihilus

 

I'm gonna kick two of them over to @cubman987

I'm taking Snoke over Ulic - some of Sinre's early draft arguments about Snoke really opened my eyes to him and I think we've been undervaluing him. Rag Dolling someone via hologram is pretty impressive.
I'm also taking the Khais over Cade. It's a fun, close match. And it's taking place in a bar. Are we really sure Cade isn't going to give into his junkie self midway through the match and submit to his own self-destructive nature? If only we'd gotten Kenobi vs. Cade in the bar setting ... alas

 

Quarterfinals Results

@heels1785 defeats @Sinrebirth by a score of 7-3

@RX_Sith defeats @clone commander bossk by a score of 7-2-1

@SithOverlord101 defeats @Lady_Belligerent by a score of 6-4

@Jordan1Kenobi defeats @Jedi Bluth by a score of 7-3

Sinre, ccb, Lady Bel, bluth - thank you for playing. Please stick around and comment on the remaining matches and add to the vibes in the thread. Join us again for our next SW Draft, and - again - if you're a baseball/sports fan, come join us for the Baseball Draft!

Semifinals

Matches Taking Place at hte Carbon Freezing Chamber on Bespin



@heels1785 vs. @RX_Sith
@SithOverlord101 vs. @Jordan1Kenobi

Let's get those numbers in ASAP folks!

 

@Lady_Belligerent Good match.

@Jordan1Kenobi May your forfeits hit my mid tiers and your top tiers hit my forfeits/bottom tiers.

 

Good luck!! May Sidious hit my forfeit and your Rey / Kylo trump hit Yoda.

 

I decided not to trump those two this time. Mostly because you have Ben Kenobi and a Ben vs. Ben/Ben matchup would be hilarious.

 

Semifinals

First set of numbers is 10, 6, 3

Matches Taking Place at the Carbon Freezing Chamber on Bespin



@heels1785 vs. @RX_Sith

Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku
Saba Sebtyne vs. Kaan'Kas'im TRUMPED with Lord Scourge
Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Darth Bane

@SithOverlord101 vs. @Jordan1Kenobi

Cade Skywalker vs. Satele Shan
Darth Nyriss vs. Cere Junda
Ezra and Kanan vs. Kit Fisto and Aayla Secura

Umm ... I'm gonna need arguments on all of those.

@cubman987 @Wang Chi

 

Some absolutely fantastic battles here! I’m mostly excited to see Windu vs Dooku play out. That’s a dream match we never got to see.

Kit Fisto & Aayla Secura vs Kanan Jarrus & Ezra Bridger

Cool fight, but an outcome that I don’t think would ever be in jeopardy. The main thing to note here about the opposition is the lack of training. Kanan never got the finish his training and Ezra never got any official training. Whereas Kit Fisto was one of the most accomplished and skilled Jedi Masters the Order has ever seen, and Aayla was also a highly skilled Jedi Master trained by the legendary Quinlan Vos.

This isn’t to say Kanan and Ezra wouldn’t put up a fight, but they are definitely out of their league. Kanan is pretty damn good, defeating the Grand Inquisitor, but Ezra is by far the weakest link here, being younger and lacking good duelling feats. Fisto and Aayla are quick, strong and athletic, and have enough feats to go into most fights looking good. Put Fisto up against the Grand Inquisitor and it’d be a near stomp.

—

Satele Shan vs Cade Skywalker

No way. Cade is good and all, but he is in no way even close to Jedi Grand Master level. Hanging with Darth Krayt is awesome, but his victory was questionable. Is that really enough to say he could not only hang with Satele, but actually defeat her? The other Sith fodder Cade beat are about as good as the random Sith that Satele cut down in the forest.
Satele is extremely acrobatic, fast and one of the most powerful Jedi in this draft. Using this environment to her advantage might come in quite useful, as she could tear down metal piping and machinery to hurl at Cade to knock him off balance or distract him. Thats gonna require a lot less effort than tearing down trees, so there’s a lot more here that she can play with.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think her double bladed lightsaber is something Cade has dealt with before. This may prove difficulty for Cade to break through her defences, as seen when Malgus struggled to keep up with her in their duel. The double bladed lightsaber is incredibly useful to those proficient in it, and can provide quicker attacks.

—

As for Nyriss and Cere, I’m gonna need to do a bit of research on that one.

 

Okay, I'm going to throw up an argument for the fight I'm (by FAR) least confident in: Ezra/Kanan vs. Kit/Aayla

Is Aayla really THAT much better than Ezra? Let's look into her feats:

• Gets owned by Grievous at Hypori
• Alongside Luminara, beats early-CW Ventress in a duel
• Defeats Aurra Sing
• Alongside Mace Windu has an inconclusive fight against Maul

That's it. The only notable even is probably the win over Aurra Sing. Now let's look into Ezra's feats:

• Briefly engaging two inquisitors alongside his master
• Getting owned by Vader
• Toying with Shin Hati

Honestly, Shin Hati's probably somewhat around Aurra Sing's level and Ezra was basically dodging Shin's lightsaber strikes without any effort whatsoever. Yes, Rebels Ezra loses to Aayla, but I think Peak Ezra is her equal or near-equal.


Okay, time to talk about the Masters here. Let's start with Master Fisto first:

• Loses to Ventress at Ord Cestus
• Beats TCW S1 Grievous at Vassek
• Dies against Sidious -- is able to block a few strikes

TCW Grievous kind of sucks -- he struggles with S1 Ahsoka and is otherwise extremely inconsistent. And here's Kanan's feats:

• Fighting the previously-mentioned inquisitors
• Beating the Grand Inquisitor
• Getting stomped by Vader
• Beating Rebels Maul

Yes, that win over Rebels Maul is somewhat wonky and due pretty much solely to Maul underestimating him and Kanan using his force senses after being blinded, but he still beats him. I'd put Rebels Maul as a slight superior to TCW S1 Grievous.

Anyways, I think the fight's close enough that it swings my way a couple times. And I think that this fight in Cloud City ends up MAYBE going my way this particular time.

(I've got far more confidence in the other two fights ... I just threw up this argument because I was bored). Also, that Dooku -- Mace fight would be nice but I'm kind of interested in the Ulic -- Bane duel.