PT What do you think of the virgin birth concept?

Nice thinking . But...there are good reasons that humans (and all mammals - afaik) have developed this way. Anyway, I'm not really interested in getting into a long discussion on the biology of procreation - I just thought it was rather fun that Lucas made something like mitochondria be the potential inheritable aspect of the Force...and then ask who the father was, of the son - and instantly jump to "aaah aaah aaah" (that's the angels singing btw) oh 'twas the Force then. No concept that it could be, y'know Schmi. And then to see the lengths that will be reached in order to ensure that paternal lineage is maintained. They're not really properly like mitochondria, or they're not really like humans, they are giant spermed humans.

Anyway, let me take the whole idea back a few steps. I'll even acknowledge midichlorians as being an actual thing - and I'm sticking to them being a matrilineal inheritance. Here's the thing. Power only really becomes a metric for the Force in the PT. What Yoda says in TESB is "My ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is"

Obi-Wan doesn't have the midichlorians of Yoda, yet alone of Anakin, yet it is Obi-Wan that defeats Anakin. Luke (and 'sister') are seen as the key to defeating the Emperor because only through them could Anakin be persuaded to sacrifice himself and destroy Palpatine. Not because of their inherent power, but because of the bond that they can/could create with Anakin.

And, as for the virgin birth. I think I've made my position clear on this in other threads but ...just no. It has no place in this story imo - or in any scientifically competent galaxy (and Lucas doesn't even stick to it properly anyway)

 

Obi Wan has more training than Anakin though. During the chase at the beginning of AOTC, Obi Wan complains that Anakin doesn't practice much. I think Anakin only trained hard after his mother died. In contrast, Obi Wan seems like a good student who was probably hardworking his whole life. So Anakin has 10 years of lazy training + 3 years of hard work training, while Obi Wan has 13 years + however-long-he-trained-before-TPM years (likely >10 years) of hard work training.

I know that's how it played out at the very end, but it didn't seem to be the original expectation. Neither Yoda, Obi Wan, nor Sidious seemed to think that Anakin might turn back to the light side, yet they all had high expectations for Luke. I think they all expected Luke to inherit his father's high physical potential.

 

My point is that midichlorians can't be used as a reflection of whether or not a duel will go one way or another. Anakin's midichlorians are supposed to be off the scale high, yet Obi-Wan can defeat him... Yes, likely work, practice and concentration are vitally important. The ability to tap into the Force as your ally is not contingent upon some notional 'strength' in the Force.

I'm not so sure, not by ROTJ. I think Obi-Wan and Yoda see Skywalker's offspring as being the key to defeating the Emperor. Not for any notion of 'power in the Force' which didn't really exist in the OT.

 

the title of this thread is rather presumptive

who said she was a virgin?

 

Obviously a nod to Christianity.
Plagueis or the Force itself created Anakin; take your pick.

 

Really?

YODA: "Powerful Jedi, was he. Hmmm....yes. Powerful Jedi."

VADER: "With our combined strength we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy as father and son."

YODA: "Strong with the Force am I, but not that strong."

YODA: "A Jedi's strength flows with the Force."

In ROTJ, they both believe that he is strong enough to face the Sith. Or at least Vader. Beyond that, the Jedi value wisdom and knowledge as power. This is why Obi-Wan can beat Anakin, because he knows his weaknesses in battle as we saw in OWK, when Obi-Wan told Anakin that his need to win at all costs was his weakness. This is why he won in ROTS. But Luke can only beat Vader through his connection to the Force.

 

The way I see it, there are two factors that contribute to how powerful (which is basically how well one can tap into the Force) one is: nature (innate Force sensitivity) and nurture (training). So of course midichlorians can't be used as a sole indicator of who would win a duel, but it is a key factor. Roughly something like:

Power = Force_Sensitivity x Training,
where Force_Sensitivity can be estimated from midichlorian count (perhaps not 100% accurate, there could be other unknown factors that contribute to it too, but still a good estimate)
and Training is something like Length_of_Training x Efficiency_of_Training

So note that the power is the product, not the sum, of Force sensitivity and training. Having one without the other is useless.

Just to confirm, you think the reason Obi-Wan and Yoda put so much hope on Luke in the OT was because they expected Luke to turn Vader back to the light side?
Even if that was the case, what about Sidious and Vader? Was Sidious worried about Luke turning Vader back? If so, why doesn't Sidious just kill Luke immediately then, and find some other random person to be his next apprentice? What did Sidious mean in ESB when he said to Vader that "The Force is strong with him [Luke]," and likewise what did Vader mean when he commented the same during the trenchrun in ANH? Why didn’t Vader try to get other people to help him overthrow Sidious for 20 years, but suddenly after finding out about Luke he makes his plans?

 

History and religion are full of virgin births. It was an unoriginal idea that I didn't favor, but it didn't wreck anything either.

 

The concept of someone being born of the Force is an intriguing one. I don't hate it as an idea that is possible for a Force user.

I hate the concept of it for Anakin Skywalker. Outside of the EU/Legends that had to clean this mess up - nothing in the OT hinted that Anakin was some type of unique Jedi messiah. Two Jedi that were close to him (Yoda/Obi-Wan) did not bring that up at all to Luke. Why not?

To make matters worse, the concept of this miracle birth hinting at his role as a special Jedi literally went no where. I was completely fine with Anakin killing Palpatine to save his son and break free of the Dark Side, not because he was destined to do it from birth.

 

I like the idea but i wish that it would be more explained in the live action movies. In the comic Fort Vader they showed how sidious made shmi pregnant but it was never explained why he chose her. I would love to know tho

 

I think it was very unnecessary. i would have liked Anakin to have a father and to be Shmi's husband but well Darth Vader is now Space Jesus Christ

 

Let me put it another way. There wasn't, in the making of the OT, any great sense of ranking - like the Top Trumps of Star Wars that you get with Nick Gillard/George Lucas and the PT (Anakin, Sidious, Yoda are all 9s, Mace is between an 8 and a 9 etc.) So, yes, I believe how the Jedi were viewed (or more importantly, how they were treated within the storyline) thankfully had none of that guph attached. Luke defeats Vader because he taps into his anger, into rage.

Do you think he was ready to defeat the Emperor? Really doesn't look that way to me.

Anyway - to the idea itself of a miraculous birth - it was almost a throwaway idea from Lucas. He played with it and it went nowhere. It's not as if its just that its never mentioned in the OT, it is never even mentioned again by any character in the following to prequel movies. It goes nowehere - its of absolutely no consequence for the story....so what was the point?

 

It's of utmost importance to the story. Knowing he is the product of a mysterious conception through Midichlorians and the Force, Anakin is aware he has an unprecedented potential for power, this makes Anakin susceptible to manipulation from Palpatine, fostering the idea that he could be the most powerful Jedi ever, and the notion that he could learn to stop death. And when Palpatine tells him that Midichlorians can be manipulated to play with life he believes it's possible and that he has the capacity to harness that power.

These are the pillars his fall stand on, and they are what Sidious uses to help Anakin justify joining the Sith; that his quest for a life of significance and conscience is about saving people from death, unlike the Jedi. Getting Anakin to think it's his destiny to do so, getting him to confuse compassion with passion, warping his mind into thinking this is what the prophesy meant about him restoring balance.

They did mention that if Anakin were to have any offspring the Emperor knew they would be a threat to him.

The beauty is, it's both, hand in hand.

 

The point in the PT is to describe different types of warriors who were experienced in the Force of and combat. It's a different era and different set of circumstances. As to Luke, he wins because of rage and his connection to the Force. Without his rage, it's his connection to the Force.

Not yet. In "The Mandalorian", he is. In the ST, he is.

It's purpose was to help turn him to the dark side via the story of Plagueis and is why only he could destroy the Sith.

Because it wasn't important to his trying to bring Vader back from the dark side.

There was a story before Luke, which was the overarching arc of his story. This whole idea goes back to the second and third drafts of ANH, and Lucas wanted to revisit it in the PT.

 

Obi Wan might not have mentioned that specifically, but he did say "It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants" in ESB and "The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him" in ROTJ. I think those quotes imply Luke inherited a high potential of "abilities" (ie power in the Force) from Anakin.

 

there is absolutely zero comparison between Jesus Christ and Anakin freaking Skywalker...

 

Many many many mythic figures have virgin birth stories. It's almost common. Jesus certainly wasn't the only one with that origin story.

 

which is annoying when people automatically think "space Jesus" instead of something like "space Perseus"


I take it with the analogy Space Jesus people then would say Shmi is 'Space Mary?' which even that doesn't add up.....Shmi had no idea how she became preggers for a start, total contrast to Mary...anyway, bleh. Back to the discussion


it serves no relevance to the story, so why it was included? extra dramatic weight I guess.

 

It’s greatly relevant. Because of one other scene in RotS where midi-chlorians are mentioned

 

and...?


he could still have had the same number of midichlorians with an actual physical father you know.

 

But we wouldn’t have the ambiguous possibility that he was created by the Sith. Nor any reason why he alone has the most midi-chlorians. It also provides a more concrete explanation for how the prophecy works, the Whills made him capable of it

 

there's nothing in the movies to suggest he was created by the Sith. There is one line that mentions some elusive Sith lord that may or may not have existed being able to manipulate midichlorians to create life. There was no nod, wink wink yeah you Anakin!


again, whills? I'm sorry, but must have missed these things in the movies, must have fallen asleep, or got some heavily edited copies or something.

 

Well, in the GFFA the force/God is actually real. Here on Earth, not so much. The mythic figures that have a virgin birth story are done so for dramatic weight and to make these figures 100% divine. Sons of the god need to be taken seriously. And don't you dare question it or else.

But it's okay in GFFA land, if the Force wants to create a being to balance the Force. (Or possibly Palpatine and Plagueis manipulating the Midi's to create a dark sider) That's certainly not out of bounds with anything else we see there, magic-wise. I think Lucas understands this, and wanted to make a mythic parallel. Unfortunately a lot of people immediately went the Jesus route and hate it for that reason alone, when hundreds of mythic figures have had this origin applied to them.

 

LOL ok edgelord.

 

What? Since when does not believing in magic or mythic fairy tales make someone an "edgelord".

God this place is weird sometimes.