A modest argument in favor of the 4,5,1,2,3,6 viewing order (and what should we call it?)

Alec Guinness' exposition to Luke about the Force is crystal clear and easy to follow. TPM only makes some allusions that are kind of vague for the uninitiated.

 

Not to mention, they come much too late in the narrative. You see the Jedi exhibit supernatural abilities and get no explanation as to what it's about.

 

The argument is that a first timer doesn't need the exposition of what the Force is because they see it in action. It's not difficult to figure out the Force is the power that the Jedi and Sith use.

 

Disagree. The reason you think "it's not hard to figure out" is because it was perfectly established in ANH (the OT). In Episode 1, people are left to infer for themselves*....not great storytelling.

Again, people are watching Episode 1 in retrospect of ANH already establishing much of the world building. Episode 1 simply is serving food on a table already set by the first three Star Wars films.

*Also, The Force is more than a power that the Jedi and Sith use. If that's what one gleans from Episode 1...it's not correct.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. That Episode 1 works fine as an entry point to Star Wars? It does. Any of the initial films do. Yet, none work better (or close to as effectively as) than the original Star Wars film, A New Hope.

 

You only say that because you watched it first.

 

The great thing about the OT is that the Force was never explained in detail. Apart from the brilliant sentence that Obi-Wan tells us.

 

Again: What are you trying to argue here? The fact is: Narratively speaking, Episode 1 doesn't work as well as an entrypoint (first movie) in the saga.

You seem to claim that my reasoning is because "it's what I'm used to." However, if you analytically look at the narrative structure of Episode 1...much of it leans heavily on idea that viewers have watched/are familiar with Episodes 4-6. You called it a redundancy...you are right. That's why Episode 1 does away with introducing these aspects. It's been done....in the first Star Wars film.

As stated, one can watch Episode 1 first. It works. As discussed, one can watch Empire Strikes Back first and still "get it." Yet, are we talking about just "understanding" these movies? Or are we talking about getting the most out of the experience?

 

T

The difference is that Episode I was explicitly made to be viewed first,despite your claims that it relies on information from other movies.

 

George Lucas claims it was made to be viewed first. Structurally it's not really though. Honestly, analyze it: It doesn't set up any of the norms/rules of the Star Wars universe. Compare it's world building to Episode 4.....Episode 1 actually pales in comparison.

Don't get me wrong: I love Episode 1. It's great. Yet, it was made after the OT. It was made in retrospect. Thus, it neglects much of the set up that a first entry would actually have....which makes sense....it's not actually the first entry in the saga.

 

You haven't mentioned one thing in the narrative of the prequels that neglects to be set up in itself. Which makes sense because, there isn't one.

 

@jaimestarr my advice, I would save myself the bother dude,
you've made your point more than once and still people are seemingly pretending not to get it.
Spare yourself the headache

 

Have you read my other posts in this thread? There are a myriad of reasons watching the movies in release order better serves The Prequels, yet the singular biggest thing the Prequels fail to set up is:

The Force.

Episode 4: "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

Episode 1: The Force is not explained in Episode 1. It's talked about...a lot. Midi-Chlorians are explained...yet, rewatch the movie...The Force is not given an explanation. Jedi simply simply show up with supernatural abilities. It is assumed that the audience already knows of The Force.

Simply put, Episode 1 is relying on the fact that viewers already know what The Force is. How do viewers already know of The Force? Oh yeah, from the 3 previous films (The Original Trilogy). I'm not sure what the dispute is with this.

 

One of the things about Star Wars, and really every movie Lucas directed, is that things are talked about, without being explained, just like real life. The idea is to be placed into the middle of the story without things being spelled out in the dialog.
The Force, is mentioned in the opening scene. In passing. This isn't because the audience is expected to know the other movies. The audience is expected to pick up on these concepts as they're presented. That's the setup. And within 30 minutes, it has set up the joke with Watto about "waving your hands around". An audience who's paying attention gets the joke.

 

The set up was from watching the OT.

Gimme Obi-Wan's "energy field" over Qui-Gon's midicholorians speech.

 

The point that you miss is that as the story unfolds, details are revealed as it goes, just like watching it the other way does. The OT has a mystery about the fall of Darth Vader before watching the PT, the PT has the mystery of what the Force is before watching the OT.

 

Check this out. Here is George Lucas (all the way back int 80's) talking about why the subsequent saga films following Star Wars: A New Hope were easier/more fun/less hassle, etc.

In short, it's because the a considerable amount (if not all of) the first film (A New Hope) is laying groundwork, building foundation, setting up and explaining the universe. The Phantom Menace simply doesn't have to do as much (if any of that). Why? Because it's not the first ****ing Star Wars film.

A no one who hasn't seen the OT gets the joke. You know why? Because the Jedi Mind trick is not shown, performed, explained in The Phantom Menace prior to Watto making the joke. You just sabotaged your own argument. The Watto/Jedi mind trick joke literally only works if you have seen the original trilogy.

Sorry, no. The point of the PT isn't "the mystery of The Force." If it is, it's piss poor storytelling as it's never explained.vAgain, the assumption is that people watching these films understands the Force. That's how they are written.

A New Hope was/is basically The Force 101 and each subsequent Star Wars film deepened/broadens/adds to the previous understanding. It's builds on the mythology. It's not trying to obfuscate, or keep The Force an ambiguous mystery...that's simply bad storytelling....especially when on of the narrative plots is "The Balance of the Force."

 

So much self-congratulating that you forgot Qui-Gon's Jedi mind trick on Boss Nass. But please, continue to explain Star Wars to those of us who actually pay attention.

 

I stand corrected. It is shown. It is performed. It is NOT however, explained. This is important. Why? I'm glad you asked

Try to answer this: How does the uninitiated Star Wars viewer know what Qui-Gon is doing to Boss Nass? It has no context. It's therefore meaningless. The newbie doesn't know it's something unique to Jedi. A newbie doesn't know that a Jedi mind trick works on the weak minded. A newbie doesn't have any point of reference to understand it.

We only know what Qui-Gon is doing...to Boss Nass... because (say it with me now) Obi-Wan explains what the hell the Jedi mind trick is, how it works, in Star Wars: A New Hope.

Again, Qui-Gon doing this with no context is meaningless to the uninitiated. Having to surmise what it is from Watto's joke is still meaningless....and poor storytelling to boot.

Again, bottom line your argument with me. What is your point?

It seems like you are trying to argue that Episode 1 is a better entry point to the Star Wars universe than Episode 4. Yet, you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. You still haven't responded to the fact that Lucas explains how he had to do the bulk of the foundational, world building/set up in the very first Star Wars film.

Lucas backwards designed the movie (Episode 1) based on what he had created before. He wasn't making it as if no one ever saw a Star Wars movie. Lucas made TPM expecting/anticipating that the bulk of the audience had already seen Episodes 4-6.....watch/read any of the makings of Episode 1 to see the evidence.

Simply put, people are free to watch Episode 1 as the first film.
Yet, Episode 1 is not the first Star Wars film and it simply never will never be. That's how time works. TPM is the 4th film in the Star Wars series....and it was made as such.

If it wasn't Lucas would have actually written it without the context of Episodes 4-6 infused throughout. It is though. I'll say the again: Contextually: Episodes 4-6 are infused throughout the prequels. You can pretend they are not...but then again...you can ignore the context of any sequels and prequels...not sure why you would though.

 

It was not made as such. The prequels were written for new viewers in mind. Today, when kids watch Star Wars, they start with Episode I, and it was designed with this in mind. I know, it's hard to imagine, because we may have grown up with the latter half of the story. But these things in the prequels, "infused" as you say, are a setup for a payoff for when the audience watches 4-6. Not the other way around. That's the point that's hard for some people to get, even after 25 years.

 

What are you basing this on? As I said, Lucas has been quoted as saying viewers should watch these films in chronological order....again....he didn't actually make the movies this way. Look at them analytically.

Again, view this clip I posted. Lucas literally explained his arduous task of the first Star Wars film: to create the narrative foundation of the Star Wars universe in Episode 4. This is the film, in which Lucas sets everything up. Then, he spends the each subsequent film playing in, deepening, and expanding the SW universe. Episode 1 is an expansion of the Star Wars story...not the foundation.


Simply put, the narrative structure of Episode 1 (as it relates to the saga)...doesn't support your claim. TPM wasn't created as the foundation narratively. However, A New Hope was created as the foundation narratively....it had to be. It was literally the first Star Wars film.

I have kids and I teach kids. Meaning, I literally know upwards of thousands of kids. They watch Star Wars all sorts of ways. Your claim is false. You personally might start with Episode 1. Today, kids watch Star Wars however they want.

Lucas may have intended this choice. Look at this (already posted) quote:

George Lucas:

"If you watch them the way it was released, IV, V, VI, I, II, III - you get one kind of movie. If you watch I through VI you get a completely different movie. One or two generations have seen it one way, and the next generations will see it in a completely different way.

It's an extremely modern, almost interactive moviemaking. You take blocks and move them around, and you come out with different emotional states."

*Thanks to @darth-sinister

Regardless of the viewing order choice....this claim:

Is false. The narrative structure of these films doesn't hold up to this claim. Let's (for sake of argument) say you are right. What kind of shoddy story telling waits until the 4th chapter (Star Wars: A New Hope) to give you the foundational tools/explanations/rules (as is stated by Lucas) that an audience member needs understand the universe? Answer, not Star Wars.

Again, Episode 1 doesn't lay the foundational groundwork for this series. Want to know how you can you tell? You actually said it yourself:

Why would ANH be redundant?

Oh yeah, because Star Wars: A New Hope already set up the story, the rules, the structure, the universe, etc. Again, Episode 4 ALREADY laid the foundation, the groundwork. TPM didn't have to do it, so it didn't do it.

It's not hard to imagine at all. It's very easy. You know why?

Your imagination. You are pretending at a truth. You are creating something that isn't. You are pretending that Episode 1 contains the essential elements that are actually in Episode 4. It's make believe. Again, everyone is free to watch movies in any order. I am all for that. Knock yourself out. Before you do... look at the facts:

Simply put, Episode 1 doesn't have the narrative foundation from which the entire saga was built....Episode 4, however, does.

Check the work:
Episodes 4-6 can exist narratively without Episodes 1-3. The reverse is simply not true. Episode 1-3 cannot (and would not) exist without the OT.

Episodes 1-3 is not a complete story. It is missing key components in the narrative. It is missing several setups and payoffs. It is missing several essential and necessary narrative pieces that are found ONLY in the OT.

Again, don't get me wrong I love the PT. I think it's great. Yet, to pretend that it was created in a way that one could start with Episode 1 and get a the most well rounded, balanced, holistic, deepest narrative is false.

The reason you think Episode 1 does have these, is because you never watched it w/o having already experienced/viewed/known Episodes 4-6. Did you?

 

Even if ANH is a "better" introduction, Lucas has stated over and over that he made the prequels to be viewed before the original trilogy. Why would he say that if he wrote them the other way?

 

The point is to watch all nine films in order. As the story unfolds, the POV shifts from to Luke and he is told what the Force is.

Watto and Padme both refer to it as a Jedi Mind Trick.

WATTO: "What, you waving your hand around thinking that you're a Jedi? I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work me. Only money."


ANAKIN: "You just don't want to tell me."

PADME: "You gonna use one of your Jedi mind tricks on me?"

ANAKIN: "They only work on the weak-minded."

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's the Force at work.

What kind of shoddy storytelling involves waiting until the sixth film to tell us why Luke's father became a total prick?

"Star Wars" is shoddy film series from a shoddy filmmaker. That's why it never won the real awards and certain critics dismissed them and blame them for dumbing down cinema.

 

Edit Time ran out to edit.

George Lucas (I, II, III, IV, V, VI): “Start with one. That’s the way to do it right: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. That’s the way they’re supposed to be done. Just because it took a long time to film it doesn’t mean you don’t do it in order.”

--The Independent interview, 2015.

 

One thing that became clear to me recently, is that the structure of the Star Wars saga is not exactly two trilogies. The Phantom Menace is like a prologue to the prequels, or to the saga itself, and then there's one story with two movies featuring Hayden Christensen as Anakin. And then finally 4-6 being the last, and longest piece of the narrative.

I
II III
IV V VI​

The reason I especially don't like 45, 123, 6, is that it splits the original trilogy up, which was always so perfect in its three act symmetry.