Amph Game of Thrones: House of the Dragon — Fire & Blood book spoilers must be TAGGED

I am curious now as to Helaena and Alice. When the dream is over Helaena was obviously standing there talking in real time. Alice was then there too. Are they somehow working together or were they at odds? Is there to be some kind of wizards duel between them?

 

We're talking about actors. It's definitely him in the future. I don't think it's a scene from the upcoming show, but maybe just using their actor whom they cast for Bloodraven.

At first I thought you were talking about Alicent and I was so confused

If that truly was Helaena also in the vision, it seems she's 100% on the same page as Alys, even if they're not communicating or allies they're at least kindred spirits. And it shows that "dragon dreams" and "greensight/weirwoods" truly are different paths to the same thing.

 

His plan was to usurp Rhaenyra until the finale vision where Alys shows him the future though. Then he realizes his role is set and he submits because of Aegon's Dream. It woulda been nice, personally speaking, had Daemon gotten to this point on his own through his familial visions over thus season. He woulda got to the same point but it would ring less hollow in my opinion.

 

I think he would have bent the knee in nearly every case, even if he was really entertaining the idea of himself as king once Harrenhal first got to him and began to mentally destabilize him. As he did always submit to Viserys too, in the end, in each case. But I think this arc shows he has consciously put this away with finality, for the rest of his life, now that he's had his own "dream"/vision. He now aspires to serve the realm, not be a ruler (which ironically makes him more fit to rule). Even when Ser Alfred comes to him, Daemon doesn't seem that happy with the idea, his face says more like "uh, this temptation yet again, when will this stop."

 

@Ghost the Blood Raven clip is him in the future so I’m right that he is still south of the wall in Hedge Knight? Gah I have no idea what box it’s in to pull out and look at the graphic.

 

Yeah, he’s not born yet, any/all of him is in the future (unless he’s pulling a Bran). He’s the great-grandson of Rhaenyra and Daemon, the banking family from Lys of the Triarchy, and the Blackwoods. He is south of the Wall for all those stories, he’s only sent to the north when Aegon V becomes King as his first act. I was just thinking they may have gotten his new actor for his younger self to dress up for this cameo.

 

It was left ambiguous whether or not he had definitively decided to usurp her. He criticized what’s his name as a turncoat, while not overtly rebuffing him. And then departed the godswood with him in train. And the Castellan overheard them and thought Daemon had agreed to usurp her. But the writers deliberately made it unclear. The vision then pushed him over the edge in support of her. And even if what you say was clear, it doesn’t follow that the vision is the only thing that influenced him. The vision, in context of everything he had been through at Harrenhall, may all have contributed. In the social sciences, we can the vision a “proximate cause” of his decision to support her - the most recent triggering event. And his humbling experiences at Harrenhall “background” or “ultimate” causes. You can’t just isolate the vision as the only thing that influenced him. It’s about how all those pieces fit together to make him a believer in her as ruler, and an unbeliever in himself as ruler. That’s what his whole season arc is about.

 

I don't like Rhaenyra and Allicent meeting again...especially considering Aemond shut down all ship passage to and fro and she just magically poofs to Dragonstone.....BUT

What I did like, and most of the House of the Dragon subreddit seemingly disagrees with me, is Allicent giving up Aegon for her own safety and freedom. Sure she wants to save Helaena, but this is the woman who fought so hard for really the entirety of her life to elevate her family and give them the crown and now when her son Aegon is at his weakest and when he needs her the most, she throws him away.

Ultimately, Alicent failed her son, neglected him and shat on him and is now offering him up because she feels there's no other alternative. She's not a good person. But it makes her compelling to watch.....

 

She didn’t magically poof there. She is the queen regent, and she is shown to be capable of finding a way out, given her power and influence. And there’s a scene where she asks the Maester to find her passage. It’s not a modern nation-state, and she’s an influential person with a lot of people loyal to her.

I was never under the impression that Alicent is a good person, so that other bit isn’t a problem on my end. That said, I think her decision actually shows her to be a better person than before, as now she’s choosing, for the first time, the good of the realm over the good of just her family unit. Though it’s not that simple. She’s also trying to save her beloved daughter, and decides it’s more important to save her, than to try to protect Aegon and have them all killed anyway. And that’s the last bit. She’s convinced Aegon won’t leave/ can’t leave/ will get them all killed if they all leave together (as he’ll be hunted until dead). And she’s rightly convinced that they will all die in KL once Rhanery attacks. And so I think she attempts the one play that will keep as many of her family members alive as possible. Because otherwise, she knows her and Helaena will also be murdered. So it’s complicated. But in the end, I think she chooses the good of the realm and the good of Haelena, over…the death of her whole family. It was the only card she had. Convince her old friend to let her and her sweet daughter go. As she’s convinced Aegon will die no matter what. And on of it, she seems to imply that it would be a mercy to her son to end his suffering. And attitudes about extreme handicaps in faux-late medieval societies probably leaned in that direction. So yes, it’s a brutal decision and it means she’s not a straight up good person. But she believes completely that she has no other choice. It’s either save her and her daughter, and let Aegon die, or all of them die. And in the end? She doesn’t have the power to trade her and Haelena’s life for Aegon’s, as Rhaenyra holds all the power cards. Aegon, as his mother sees it, will be killed no matter what she does. She’s wrong, as he escapes, but that’s how she sees it at the time. And even if she considered escaping with him, she sees that this will ultimately increase the likelihood of her and her daughter being hunted and killed. And so…much tougher decision than many are implying. It’s not as simple as “she traded her son’s life for freedom.” And I find it unfortunate that this is how simply many fans are seeing it. The writers are better than that.

 

I disagree that it was left ambiguous. He tells Alys precisely his intentions a couple episodes back and says the Seven Kingdoms need a King and that they won't respect a woman ruler. Alys chastises him for his motives in that very scene there after. And he scoffs at it. When Rhaenyra shows up to Harenhall, his army does not move into formation for her....they move into formation for Daemon. They do not kneel until he finally declared his allegiance to Rhaenyra. Post Aegon's Dream is really the first time we see him grapple with his current desires as they conflict with what he now sees in an inevitable future. He didn't ignore Rhaenyra this entire season so much, so that she had to finally show up to Harenhall out of immense concern regarding his position, for no reason. I agree the familial visions add layers to what eventually becomes revelation for him in Aegon's Dream, but I simply wish those layers were the primary motivating factor in his relinquishment rather than the dream he got from a tree. But just my 2 cents. Like i said, we get to the same point in his story either way I just feel we had all this great build up with Daemon reckoning with his past actions and this final vision lessons all that in my opinion.


EDIT so as to keep everything in the same discussion rather than responding to separate comments on separate discussions...

"now she’s choosing, for the first time, the good of the realm over the good of just her family unit."


I'm not even slightly convinced Allicent made this decision for the good of the realm and this decision does involve the good of her family unit, one of them. She's waged war and been at the council and been in a power position by which many innocent's have died. This decision, to me, is more about her betrayal by her own family, feeling swept aside and kicked out of her power position and now feeling without place, and this decision also is about Helaena.....which I will give her some credit for despite it still, in my opinion, coming from a place of self preservation and guilt over the terror she's raised in her boys. But I don't think this is some virtuous change of heart about wanting to end war for any other reason than the fact that the cards fell poorly for her this season and the sons she has raised turned out to be psychopaths. This is about her...she doesn't want to lose her daughter, the last good thing she has left. Don't get it twisted (not you just saying generally).. she's clearly willing to cut the cord if it means she can somehow absolve herself of this. Feigning concern for the seven kingdoms is simply convenient for her in her current predicament IMO.

 

This was also before his experience with Oscar Tully and the Riverlords, and before his ring of power, I mean, crown chat with ghost Viserys.

Well then, good thing I also said all this other stuff about that (see below), wherein I made it clear that Alicent’s decision is not as simple as just “the good of the realm.” As I said, she’s also saving herself and her daughter, and (I’d add) thinks Aegon and Aemond are essentially dangers to their safety - perhaps the most likely to cause their deaths. The scene where Aemond tries to drag Helaena into the war was an important one. It showed Alicent that she and her daughter were in danger, and would likely end up victims of their children’s war. Even though ultimately…she started it all. Under pressure from her dad, and a misinterpreted utterance from the king. She’s not a great person, no, but she also has limited options, as a woman on the losing side, for her and her family’s survival.

 

I wasn't trying to take a single quote out of context I shoulda just fully replied. People complain about my not pulling specific quotes when I respond to comments so was trying to not make my overly long response to your response overwhelmingly large. Typically this is why I do just reply because then at least there is full reference to the OP user you are discussing with.

 

No worries. People also complain about me not pulling specific quotes, and I just...don't care. As I much prefer responding to the full context of what someone says, than picking out sentences and risk taking people out of context, and as such, misrepresenting their arguments. Long-form communication is better for both understanding and civility, and so I'm all about it. And it's why I've never been on Twitter.

 

I fully agree. Just saw this quote from the director of the finale Geeta Vasant Patel regarding Daemon's vision:

"Then he (Condal) communicated what that vision should be... and what that vision was supposed to convey to Daemon, and that it was a moment that would convince Daemon to look outside of himself and help him realize that he's part of a bigger picture and, for the first time, perhaps convince Daemon to do what's for the better good of the world rather than what's good for himself and his ego."

So this is why I took up issue with it being such a prominent point in his turning. But I agree with you that obviously the Viserys scene especially laid the foundation for this turn here.


You could argue that Allicent doing what she does mirrors Daemon's decision in ways too, in regards to looking at the bigger picture.

 

Seeing this meme in my algorithm that made me chuckle.




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Great question that the show wants you to ask. The futility, horror and pointlessness of war, particularly war without a just cause at its core, is basically what the show boils down to. Though maybe Alicent should’ve found an Infinity Stone at the end, to give the season more purpose.

 

I think the character arcs were great. Almost all of them went on a journey. And gathering an army in feudal times takes time. I’d say the Battle of Rook’s Rest and the Red Sowing were pretty consequential too, along with Aegon fleeing.

 

Apparently HBO cut the show of two episodes a month before filming. Then soon the writers strikes 3 months later. So they coundt change it around. HBO/WB merger is to blame, so everything got cut in budgets.

 

Always a mistake to artificially force a shortening of a season of TV. I have never heard of an example of that being a good thing.

 

I guess I'm used to the 8 episode SW seasons that I didn't realize that 8 wasn't the norm for HotD and we got 10 in s1 and only 8 for s2.

 

I heard before we'd only be getting 8 this time... but I didn't know they wrote and filmed 2 whole episodes worth of content they had to cut.

 

Wow the Tube is pissed off and indeed has dragon blue balls. Lots of rah rahing about having to wait for 2 years after a massive tease. Like I get it. I honestly do but I’m still about 80% sure we the strike caused that and we should be good to go next summer.

Maybe I’m wrong about that but lots of shows went for a 2 year angle not just this one. That screams industry funk to me.

 

The criticism just seems to be people upset that the story is moving slowly, and there will be a long wait until the next season. People are completely unable to see the long game.

I enjoyed this season, and I liked that they depicted the move from the ‘declaration’ of war to the actual beginning of large scale battles as being a drawn out thing in the medieval period. Shogun did this very well also.

 

I appreciated the character development for Daemon, but he didn't do any fighting nor was he involved in battles. That sums of a lot of the characters in season 2, great character development but light on the action.

GOT, for better or for worse, built us up throughout the season and then delivered BIG things we cheered for and cried for --

109/110 - the death of Ned, the rise of Dany with her dragons
209/210 - Stannis Baratheon's army defeated in Blackwater, Dany taking control over the slavers
309 - the red wedding
408/409/410 - The Mountain v the Viper, Night's watch v The Wilding Army, the death of Tywin
508 - Hardhome
609/610 - Battle of the Bastards, the destruction of the Sept

 

Rhaenys was the big death of this season and our big battle.