Mini Series "The Acolyte" Season 1 Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

I agree. From a plotting perspective, the writers seem to drop the vergence thread quite quickly. A vergence in the force must be big news right? A vergence in the force where two children are the result of immaculate conception seems potentially seismic (it was for Qui-Gon)... so did Sol and Indara just drop this as part of their cover up? I think the series would have benefited from Sol wanting an answer to the vergence question. Did he think Osha could be the 'Chosen One'? That would have at least been a interesting line of enquiry...

 

The team's mission was to find the vergence, but the discovery of the witches changed all that. For Sol it was about saving the girls from that point on.

Sol cares, but the problem is how he cares for Osha. Sol acts self-righteous and selfish.

"I want to do what's best for Osha."

But did Qui-Gon kill a bunch of people on Tatooine?

The reason why everything went down on Brendok is because they were looking for a vergence. After the incident with the witches Sol and Indara would most likely want to move on from Brendok and help Osha. Also Sol even said without Mae there was no proof of how they were created, which was still a theory.

Osha couldn't possibly be considered The Chosen One since she and Mae are the same person. The Chosen One is meant to be one person.

 

Was it the ‘teams mission’? And if so, wasn’t anyone back on Coruscant interested in what they found? Or was the team just doing their own thing with no direct instruction from anyone anywhere?

But when the show starts Osha is no longer at the Jedi temple and no longer Sol’s charge… so at the point, how he feels is rather academic, given the fact that he’s witness to children born of the force.

That’s irrelevant to the point. Did Sol and Indira believe/have a sneaking suspicion that Osha could be ‘the Chosen One’ or not?

And then, from a plotting perspective, it gets totally brushed under the carpet…

Did they though? I think it was mentioned in episode 1 that Indira was pivotal in getting Osha kicked out of the order. So not only is Indira partly responsible for all the deaths, she also doesn’t help Osha like at all.

Well it would remain a theory if they never bothered to follow anything up.

The prophecy never went into the detail of it not applying to two people being the same person… and of course Indira and Sol believed Mae to be dead, so The Chosen One could well have been Osha at that point. How many children born of the force, and centred near a vergence in the force, do you think the Jedi routinely come across? Several a week? None at all? Of course the simplest reason is that the writers forgot to actually resolve that rather significant plot point.

 

I don't know. The Jedi Council doesn't tell me everything.

There is no actual proof of that.

Why are you bringing up The Chosen One? It's not even a plot point in this show. It's irrelevant.

Just like that wonderful Chosen One prophecy in the prequels.

We have no idea how all of that actually went down. All we know is that Osha couldn't make it as a Jedi.

Because Mae was dead. They had nothing to follow up on.

 

Thank you. I've started up various conversations since all episodes of the Acolyte aired and I've had no one follow up with me on the points I made in my post. Everyone seems to believe that Sol cared for Osha. I just never saw it that way. He acted more like a kid in a candy store (greedy) and gave off unreliable narrator vibes (sus). On my recent rewatch of Episode 1, Sol's behavior toward rescuing Osha from the snowy ledge now feels arrogant and cocky, out of context. For sure, how can he be acting like everything is just fine, when deep down, you know he's gotta be thinking this is where it all starts to unravel. I guess I shouldn't act surprised by all this, because by the time Episodes 4 and 5 roll around, the arrogance and cockiness is on full display as his Jedi team gets completely wiped out by the Stranger.

 

Which is a product of poor writing.

Are you suggesting that Sol had no idea of Osha’s origins and just presumed she had a father?

The show brought it up. Did you not watch it? Maybe it was just a plot point lost on you? A vergence in the force around a being born of the force? Literally most SW fans picked up on this… I’m surprised you didn’t?

Do you even watch Star Wars? Anakin ended up killing the emperor and bringing balance to the force (until the sequels)… or is it that you think he should have brought balance in the prequels?

We do. Indira recommended Osha be ejected from the Jedi order. Have you not watched the show?

Really? Where did it state that the vergence was specific to Mae?

 

No, it's just not important to the plot.

You're nitpicking now.

They had no proof of how they were created.

The show did not bring up The Chosen One.

The twins themselves are not a vergence in the force.

The Chosen One prophecy is borderline nonsense to me because of how poorly executed it was in the prequels. It's one of many things Lucas stole from Frank Herbert's Dune and just threw it into Star Wars.

Hell, you can remove any references to the Chosen One in the prequels and those movies play fine.

We don't know the details of how it all went down.

A line from Yord about Indara is not enough.

The twins were a link to the vergence.

 

Creating motivation and utility is a basic tenet of writing... it's not nitpicking unless one doesn't care.

Neither did Qui-Gon... other than what Shmi had told him.

Which is kind of the point you seem to be missing... It's already been established that the prophecy of the Chosen One relates to a child born of the force.... an immaculate conception, a 'virgin birth'. That this wasn't picked up as a plot point in the show is a glaring omission... unless children born of the force is supposed to be common circa 100 years before TPM, which patently it is not.

So what was the vergence? And why were they looking for it if it wasn't at all important? What do you think the relevance/significance of the vergance was?

What you think of the prophecy, as a concept, is irrelevant. I didn't ask for your opinion on it. I questioned the veracity of your claim that it wasn't dealt with in the films... given that Anakin actually brings balance.

At a macro level but not at a micro level.

So Yord was lying or mistaken? What makes you think that and what makes you believe that the writers intent was to make one single viewer, Hollowshape, believe Yord was lying or mistaken?

What was the nature of that 'link'?

 

The "problem" is the cover up thing. The "jedi" in Kendrok decided to lie about what really happened and never brought up to the council the "vigin birth" of the twins. In the last episode Sol claims since he tought Mae was dead there were no way to prove the vergeance and how the twins were created. So those 4 jedi chose to cover their a**** than reveal something that could be seen as the Prophecy ( wich would bring further investigation by the council ).
Ok, it's dumb, i know but it was what the show went after.
So there were no "omission" of the prophecy , just 4 people who clearly had no business being Jedi lying about the nature of the twins for over the top selfish reasons.
And that's the tragedy: everything in the Prequels could be avoided if those Jedi didn't lie and if Venestra didn't double down the cover up in the last episode.
In the end, the way the show ended, the "virgin birth" thing just felt unnecessary and never moved the story forward anyway. The Qimir/Venestra backstory in the end looked far more interesting than anything the show offered and a second season should focus only in The Stranger if they want people watch it.

 

You have to keep in mind that Andor S2 was already in production when S1 aired. And the series got a great response (Something Lucasfilm needed and needs dearly) and was overall a critical success with critics and fans. I cant say the same about the Acolyte.

So I personally highly doubt that they will be doing another Season, at least not with the budget of S1.

A game made by a studio like Larian (Baldurs Gate 3, Divinity series) /Obsidian (Knights of the old republic 2, Fallout New vegas) or Bioware (Knights of the old Republic, Mass Effect Series, Dragon Age series) would be a fantastic alternative solution.

 

And ultimately that undermines the story, IMO, and goes to the heart of much of the technical criticism of the show i.e. that the lack of focus leads to characters not having enough utility and/or plot threads/strands not being resolved effectively etc. One has to ask what the benefit was of having Osha and Mae being born of the force, having vergences in the force etc. when they ultimately don't lead to anything. Of course some of that could come in a 2nd season, but really one has to make the first season count, and on the face of it most of the issues with The Acolyte could have been resolved simply by taking the pointless mystery out of it, removing the notion of 'twins' (which added little) etc. and instead focusing on what the story probably should have been i.e. the dynamic between master, apprentice and acolyte... and their plan to infiltrate the senate.

 

The twins being created using the force is absolutely important as it leads to Darth Plagueis...

 

Hold up... I thought Sol said that Osha and Mae are not twins, and that they are not even sisters.

 

I don't know what else to call them.

Pseudo-twins then.

 

Two points: (1) the prophecy specifically refers to someone conceived by Midi-chlorians--that's what Mace reacts to. Which, as far as we know, Osha and Mae were not. Are they? (2) We don't know whether the prophecy even exists at this time. (I've seen it speculated that one of the plans for Vernestra is that she is the one who'll make the prophecy. Which makes sense, given how much they're playing up that thing about Force visions during hyperspace travel. Though again, admittedly its just speculation.)

In any case, I don't think it's an oversight. I think it's quite deliberate.

 

I assume the force and midi-chlorians come as a package. the way Palpatine explained it, its a manipulation of midi-chlorians to create life

Prophecies are usually ancient right? Usually a long term belief or written text.

I don't think it matters whether or not they automatically thought about the chosen one thing. I suspect if they just constantly seeking the prophecy there would be many MANY false ones around.

 

As far as I understand the story, the Midi-chlorians can be used to create life, that's what Palpatine says about Darth Plagueis (I assume that's where this is where the current story is going to go). This doesn't mean that Osha and Mae were create in the same way--maybe they were created in some other way. As of now the story doesn't explicitly say this, as far as I remember--or does it?

Prophecies don't have to be ancient (see for instance Oedipus); the defining characteristic of prophecies is that they have a supernatural origin.

 

They were born of the force… ergo midichlorians must be involved… unless the show explicitly states otherwise (which it didn’t), as that has already been established in the PT that Anakin was created via the force, he was an immaculate conception… just like Osha and Mae.

I don’t think we can seriously use someone’s head canon/speculation to adequately explain why the Jedi didn’t join the dots. It’s a pretty arse prophecy if it’s only existed for less than a century. It would kind of take the mythical and ancient nature out of the premise.

It was certainly deliberate as it’s clearly referencing Anakin’s origin and the Plageuis connection… it’s just that this element particularly, and searching for the vergence, was incredibly poorly written and implemented IMO. Even the casting of the younger sisters was just bizarre (given they didn’t look identical), yet as older versions they are played by the same actor. That’s a really weird choice.

 

This doesn't follow logically. The fact that Midi-chlorians can be used to create life doesn't imply that life can only be created via Midi-chlorians.

Are you willfully misunderstanding me? The point here is that it hasn't been established whether the prophecy was around at the time of this series, and it could even be part of the narrative that's in store.

Now this is headcanon. There's nothing in the definition of the word prophecy that implies it's ancient (again, see Oedipus as a counterexample). The definition of prophecy is that it is a prediction with a supernatural origin.

 

Presumably if the force is involved then Midi-chlorians would also be involved. To say they were not but the force still was does muddy the waters more so.

 

We’re not discussing *ALL* life are we? We’re talking very specifically about life created BY THE FORCE. Given that the show presented no alternative then it is *logical* that the force creating life works in a similar way. What part of that are you not understanding?

The show doesn’t state that the prophecy didn’t exist 100 years before TPM, so why should we presume it didn’t exist ‘in universe’, just because some rando on the internet speculated it would be Venestra?

Because that is the implication in the PT. The Jedi aren’t routinely prophesying about the future, as always in motion the future is. They are not prophets. The suggestion is that the prophesy of the chosen one isn’t something dreamed up last week by Mace et al. And by your own definition, the Jedi are not ‘supernatural’ are they? Ergo, the suggestion is the prophecy is something of a ‘divine’ nature/origin that predates the modern order (modern to the PT).

 

PS Oedipus is an ancient Greek myth pertaining to an Ancient Greek prophecy, as told by Homer circa 3000 years ago i.e. it's not modern.

 

When Oedipus was born, his father Laius consulted an oracle who revealed that he was doomed to perish by the hand of his own son. A prophecy that was fulfilled just a couple of decades, or less, later.

 

Oh I see... Yubnub you were stating that *a* prophecy in itself doesn't have to be 'ancient' in order to be a prophecy? Yes, my misunderstanding of what you were stating. Agreed. I thought you were stating that the Oedipus myth itself was not ancient... which of course it is, but within the context of that particular myth, the prophecy was indeed contemporaneous within the story.

 

They have however always been blinded by their arrogance. Lucas goes at lengths to make this clear in the PT. It's what PUSHES Anakin to the dark side. Yoda says he has failed...I believe he meant for hundreds of years...but he gets his return by training Luke