ST Palpatine "Gran Palpa" Discussion Thread

I get what you are saying, but I disagree.The Death Star II isn't just window dressing in ROTJ - it fundamentally shapes the entire narrative structure. This massive superweapon forces the exact same "race against time" plot as A New Hope: our heroes must destroy it before it destroys them. It drives the entire third act into essentially the same climax we've already seen.
Even the way it splits up our heroes follows similar beats - space battle outside, personal confrontation inside. Yes, Luke's story with Vader and the Emperor is thematically rich and different, but the whole Rebel assault plotline is basically "trench run 2.0." The fact that it's "not fully operational" is just a slight twist on the same basic setup.

So while ROTJ does beautifully conclude Luke and Vader's personal story, a huge chunk of its plot structure is explicitly recycled from ANH because of the Death Star II. It's not just superficial - it forces the movie to retread familiar story beats rather than finding a completely fresh way to structure its climax. The Death Star II doesn't just look like the first one, it makes the story work like the first one too.

The redemption story might be new territory, but the "rebels must blow up the superweapon" plot is absolutely a rehash that drives major parts of the film's structure. It's not just cosmetic - it's a narrative crutch that shapes how the whole finale plays out.

Same. I give the OT incredible amounts of leeway in wasy that I don't afford the PT, nor ST, etc.

 

But like I said, that's just the side story carried out by the side characters. And by the time they were about to blow up the DS2, it didn't actually matter anymore (not that they knew) because the Emperor was already dead. If the shield generator wasn't destroyed, Luke could have carried Vader into the DS2 control room and tell them to surrender. He could even make them destroy the main Star Destroyer if he wanted, which would be a signal to everyone out there that a coup has already happened within the DS2 and no more need to destroy it because it is now a Rebel base.

 

Whether its a side story or not its still carries a lot of the films plot. All that you are saying is that you didn't really care about that plot because you was so focused on another. But then the film likely wasn't designed to be seen that way.

Really it could be argued that DS2 is more of a rehash then bringing back Palpatine. Because Palptine is fine as a main boss. He is a villain that probably deserves it having been built up throughout Star Wars legacy. While DS2 is taken out basically the same way as the first. Just with a bit more budget and flare visually. They both require to be hit in a certain place to blow the whole thing up.

 

That's missing how the Death Star II drives the entire plot structure of ROTJ. The Emperor's trap using the Death Star II is what forces the Rebellion into this desperate attack. It's what splits up our heroes - it's why Han and Leia have to go to Endor while Lando leads the fleet. It's not just some side plot with side characters - it's the entire framework that the story hangs on.

And for all the talk about "oh the Emperor was already dead so it didn't matter" - the Death Star II is literally why Luke is even there in that throne room. The whole confrontation happens because Luke surrendered himself on Endor to protect the mission to destroy it. The Emperor specifically used the Death Star II as bait to draw the Rebellion in and force Luke to come face him.

So while yes, the emotional core is Luke and Vader's story, the Death Star II isn't some superficial backdrop - it's the key plot device that gets everyone where they need to be for that story to happen. That's what makes it more than just a visual rehash - it's a fundamental recycling of narrative structure from ANH, forcing similar story beats and character separations.

The fact that they chose to drive the entire plot with another Death Star, rather than finding a fresh narrative device, shows it's more than just surface-level repetition. It's a structural rehash that shapes the whole film, not just the visuals.

 

My issue with Palpatine’s return in TROS is that there’s nothing truly different between his becoming the bad guy to beat in the sequels and his being the bad guy in the OT. There’s lots of surface differences, very cool ones too, but the chaotic backstory bridging the two trilogies doesn’t suggest continuity so much as repetition. He’s not doing anything different, and whether his tool of intimidation is a Death Star, Starkiller Base, or a planet-destroying fleet of Star Destroyers doesn’t change that.

In many ways, the stories set between ROTJ and TFA that are gradually exploring Palpatine’s work to resurrect himself and come back to power are more successful at doing something different. Because that is a new situation for Palpatine, and it’s got all the same cool surface elements from the ST (Exegol, the Sith Eternal, cloning, etc.), but it’s actually focusing on them instead of rushing to put him back in his role as Emperor. Admittedly, there aren’t many stories doing this, and the ones that are have done it through indirect and very gradual means. I’m not satisfied with how slow LFL has been to explore all the storytelling potential of Exegol. But the core story is different from what we saw before, even compared to Palpatine’s rise to power in the prequels. And while TROS does cover a bit of this, it very quickly essentially hits the reset button and he’s basically the Emperor again (and I mean even before he regenerates).

I think this is just my way of saying what @Lulu Mars said earlier. I’m also OK with Disney LFL making a remake of the OT if what they wanted was to get a new generation of fans into Star Wars. It’s not my preference, but it is what it is and I’d rather focus on the future having more interesting stories and more cohesive storytelling. There’s plenty of good elements introduced in the ST, and now we have a younger cast of characters who don’t have to be de-aged or avoided for stories in their era to progress.

 

I kind of feel like this boils down to comparing Luke blowing up the first Death Star to Anakin destroying Palpatine. The Death Star II is something that the heroes destroy in one film, on one adventure. It's not that it's unimportant, but it's kind of busy work to fuel the final battle. You could replace it with some other mission for the Rebels. It's an obstacle, the big bad weapon that needs to be blown up. It's not special, hence SW reusing the idea multiple times across all its trilogies.

Palpatine's defeat is not that. It's deeper, more emotional and important to the characters and the entire saga. So the victory over him carries more meaning. And that means it's way worse when he's reused as the big baddie as opposed to yet another deathray machine being built for the heroes to destroy. IMO.

 

Well yes it was important background for the initial setup. But it shifted out of focus after Luke entered the room. It wasn't the climax like you described earlier.

 

Here's a key thing about Palpatine across the saga: When ROTJ came out in 1983, he was essentially a new character. Yes, we'd glimpsed him briefly in Empire, but he was basically just "the bigger bad guy behind Vader." The weight of his character came purely from what ROTJ established in the moment.

But by the time we get to TROS, Palpatine carries the weight of the entire saga - he's the manipulative senator who became chancellor, the Sith Lord who corrupted Anakin, the architect of the Clone Wars and the Empire. His return taps into all that rich backstory and meaning that the prequels added. While ROTJ's Palpatine was retroactively given all this depth, TROS actually gets to use and build on that established history.

When you see him in TROS, you're not just seeing the Emperor from Return of the Jedi - you're seeing Darth Sidious, seeing Senator Palpatine, seeing the puppet master who orchestrated the fall of the Republic. His presence brings with it every layer of character development and mythology that was built up across the six films that came between ROTJ and TROS.

I agree. And this isn't too different from the retroactive world building/expansion we witnessed in The Clone Wars, Ewok Adventures, etc.

@lord_sidious_

Maybe I am missunderstanding you. The Death Star II battle absolutely was a key part of the climax, not just some aftermath. The film intercuts between two major climactic threads: Luke's confrontation with Vader/Emperor, and the Rebel assault on the Death Star II. It's structured so both peak simultaneously - as the Emperor dies, Lando and Wedge are making their final run to the reactor. The destruction of the Death Star II isn't epilogue or falling action - it's the explosive punctuation mark on the whole trilogy's climax.
So while Luke and Vader's story might be the emotional heart, the Death Star II battle isn't just background noise happening off to the side. It's deliberately structured as an equal part of the film's climax, with both threads building to that final moment. The fact that it mirrors ANH's climax so closely makes it more than just a superficial repeat - it's a fundamental reuse of both plot device and narrative structure.


@Saga_Symphony
I'd push back a bit on downplaying the Death Star II to just "busy work," but there's another key point about Palpatine that needs consideration: In ROTJ, Palpatine's defeat isn't really about Palpatine at all. He's a narrative device serving the real story - Vader's redemption through his love for Luke. The Emperor exists to force that choice, to push that father-son conflict to its breaking point. His death matters less as a villain's defeat and more as the proof of Anakin Skywalker's return.

This is actually why the Death Star II's reuse feels more egregious in some ways - they had this incredible personal story about redemption and father/son conflict, and they still felt the need to wrap it in a recycled superweapon plot. Rather than finding a fresh framework for this powerful emotional climax, they fell back on "blow up the big sphere again."

So while Palpatine's defeat has more emotional resonance than destroying a superweapon, it's because he's serving a deeper character story, not because he himself is the focus. The Death Star II feels creatively bankrupt because they didn't even try to find a new external threat to match the complexity of the personal story - they just copied and pasted from ANH with no real justification beyond "well it worked last time."

 

I mean resurrection stories ain't anything new for villains. Which is what this is really. Palpatine is probably more defeated than what he was in Legends where it sounds like he was in much better condition with his cloning tricks.

And this is why im fine with it personally. Nothing has changed. Anakin still has his redemption and he still killed Palpatine. But Palpatine has cheated death in a way thats left him a zombiefied clone husk of a man thats being kept alive by machine. He is barely alive. But he is also the devil of Star Wars and you don't want the devil to return and gain back power.

 

I don't think you can compare a big machine to the big villain of an entire saga. It's Star Wars, there's always going to be something that needs to be blown up. None of the characters ever changed drastically or gained some deep understanding because a Death Star exploded. That's not the case when it comes to Anakin defeating Palpatine.

Yeah, seeing the "we have to destroy the giant death machine" trope reused over and over is eye-rolling. But it's far more passable to me than bringing back a major villain who's defeat carried so much meaning, and not just for Luke and Vader in RotJ. It can't be handwaved with "but evil never dies" or Palpatine's vague lines about sorta-kinda cheating death in the PT. That doesn't justify taking away Anakin and Luke's victory, which is what TROS does.

 

You would have to assume it undoes anything. which it doesn't. Anakins redemption remains. saving his son remains. Palpatine most likely does perish even if he cheats death by cloning.

Its like watching episode 4 which a big part of that is about the deathstar. Its about defeating this massive weapon that puts the galaxy at risk. Luke destroys it, marking a victory. The film would be pointless if we didn't think of the deathstar being the threat of that movie. So when you do it again in episode 6 and they have to shoot something to blow it up again... does that reduce Lukes victory in the first one? Do we look at episode 4 in a lesser light because we know the deathstar just came back fairly quickly after a few years like it was pretty easy to build again? I assume no. i assume you feel Lukes victory still mattered? And you still celebrate Lukes victory as a win against the Empire.

 

No, because again, giant exploding machines don't have the same depth, meaning, and level of satisfaction as destroying the evil manipulative tyrant who's had history and involvement with the main protagonists.

 

Again, here's the key difference: When Palpatine appeared in ROTJ in 1983, he was basically a new character - just the bigger bad behind Vader who served the father-son story. All the weight we associate with him now - the master manipulator, the corrupting force behind Anakin, the architect of the Republic's fall - that was added later by the prequels.

So while ROTJ's Palpatine had meaning retroactively grafted onto him, TROS actually gets to utilize and build upon all that rich history that was created in the decades between films. It's working with a character who brings all that prequel-era gravitas and meaning with him, rather than just copying a superweapon and dropping it into the opening crawl with no explanation.

 

I don't see why it should matter if the PT added to the meaning or not -- it was meaningful with or without it -- and once again, it's the meaning the matters. Bringing back Palpatine in TROS didn't mean anything or change anyone. They tried to shoehorn some last-minute family drama with Rey, but it was a joke compared to the Skywalkers' long-spanning conflict with the character. Tying into the lore with tidbits about Palpatine cheating death do not cut it. Palpatine does bring a certain gravitas with him, and the ST didn't earn that gravitas at all.

 

I guess everyone's experience was different. For me, after Sidious's death, the war was over. I remember thinking "Wait so they actually don't need to destroy this Death Star anymore? It can be theirs now. If only there was a way for Luke to quickly tell everyone..." And the only thing I cared about was Luke getting out of there in time before it explodes.

To be honest, Luke's victory in ANH already diminished for me after the opening crawl of ESB... I watched in Machete order and at the time of watching ANH, the Death Star was hyped up so much and also I thought Tarkin was the main villain, so when they were destroyed together I thought the Empire was effectively over. Then comes ESB and I was like "What?? ...Oh... so this guy is the REAL big villain" But for people who watched in chronological order, the ANH victory probably wasn't ever that big to begin with.

 

On the topic of endings, what were everyone's thoughts during TROS's ending? I was thinking something like this: "Are the Rebels going to use one of those death star - star destroyer things to destroy Exegol to make sure Sidious doesn't come back again? Not sure if that planet has normal, innocent life forms living on it too... probably not considering how special it is? Wait, they're just going to fly away like that?? Um, as long as Exegol is there, doesn't that mean Sidious can keep reviving himself?"

 

It looked like the Final Order fleet was completely destroyed, and much if not all of the Sith cult was also destroyed in the wake of Palpatine’s death, along with a good portion of the Sith Citadel. This suggests that all of his cloning machinery, his followers, and his army were annihilated at the end.

Exegol is probably a wasteland, devoid of any indigenous animal life, but the Resistance probably didn’t destroy it. If future stories want to use it, then I’m sure it’ll turn out there was another Sith Temple left untouched or members of the Sith cult who survived to produce the next villain. Honestly that would be a good choice, since Exegol was such a great concept. But they could also just as easily leave it behind and say nothing remained after the battle, and that would make sense too.

 

It is a narrative crutch, which means it's superficial.

 

Honestly, by the time the fleet of eleventy billion showed up, the space horses ran across a ship hull, the enemy ships couldn’t fly up, and the Rey-Palps-Kylo ripoff of ROTJ, I was laughing too hard to even remember that.

Also, you don’t have to give them the plot of Ep 10 like that!

 

I guess it depends on how everyone interpreted the Sidious "somehow" coming back part. If you saw it as sciency cloning technology done by his followers, then yeah with the machinery and people destroyed, he probably can't come back. But I saw it more as dark side Sith magic from Exegol itself, so as long as Exegol exists, Sidious can keep returning indefinitely.

Hmm... I just thought of something. I don't know how many people here have watched Sailor Moon before, but in Sailor Moon Crystal Season 2: Black Moon, the main villain is actually a planet. Some guy was exiled there and over time (centuries iirc), his consciousness merged with the planet and he became the planet itself. I think it would be kinda cool here too if Exegol was sort of "alive." Maybe Exegol is the Sith cult's "god" that the Sith have been worshipping since the beginning of the cult's creation, and the source of all their dark side Force power.

 

I think it being science based is probably more horrific and dark. Because you know the experiments that had to be done in order to get there were probably not good. And also that the Sidious we got in TROS was the best that was able to be produced.

Which i imagine is not a great mile stone if you come out of it blind, half formed and need equipment to keep you alive.

 

I personally don't like the cloning idea because I feel like it contradicts the prequels (not that the ST was ever consistent with them). If cloning a Force sensitive person can produce an equally Force sensitive clone, why doesn't Sidious clone Anakin after Mustafar? The fact that he didn't indicates to me that the cloning process can't replicate the midichlorian density of the template. It only replicates non Force related qualities, which is why they simply chose a normal (not Force sensitive) athletic person like Jango Fett to be the template of the clone army.

So I personally prefer that Sidious was brought back to life with some "unnatural" dark side magic (which sort of fits with that ROTS quote in the Opera scene) into his original body (which is why it's so damaged). But it's fine if the life support stuff is science based, as those only play a supporting role, not the key role.

 

Also if the Force (midis) were replicable in that way, they could also isolate them and inject them into themselves much like a steroid. Which means Palpatine wouldn't even need an Anakin Chosen One Apprentice. Forget the unnatural darkside. He could simply use tech and boost his own midis and become a being of truly unlimited power.

As much as the Force has a real life biological component, and can even be tested in some way, I much prefer that it isn't quite harnessable for cloning. It just opens far too many dumb doors that ruin the lore.

And this is probably why Palpatine - or others - has to rely on dark side unnatural powers to perhaps ... influence the midis to create life. Whether or not he himself can actually do this is still debatable. And so perhaps the same dark siders who tried to create Anakin via the dark side, used similar powers to bring Palpatine back into being.

I hate TROS for what its casually and recklessly done because god knows that JJ cares not one single bit about any of this. And never did.

 

I mean, surely thats the point. Sidious would want a force sensitive clone. Them being hard to produce, if not impossible is what makes holds him back.

If we started to say black magic could produce them then it becomes too easy. And i suspect its not meant to be.

And in new canon isnt Omega meant to be force sensitive? I dunno. Knowing Filoni probably. if so i guess she is meant to be unique. And Reys father is said to be a clone that wasnt force sensitive and why he was no use to palpatine.

Although i do think sith magic is probably involved in some way.

 

Leia being retconned into being Luke's sister is a narrative crutch. Is that superficial? Palpatine returning in TROS is a narrative crutch, s that superficial?