ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Cool for you. Here's exactly my point:


I also like:


Take your pick.

Bottom line: We get it. You don't like the Sequel Trilogy.

 

File this as another entry under “Star Wars opinions I’ve never heard a human being express in their life until it came time to retroactively justify the STs decisions decades later”, but yes I’m sure it’s just because everyone collectively decided to give it a pass for some reason, as criticizing AoTC at the time was famously off-limits.

 

Let’s not skirt around the issue at what you’re hinting at with the passive aggressive “somehow obi-wan gets a pass” comment. But Obi-wan is a character established with his own story arc in the prequels. Also the sub-plot you mention is the extremely important one that uncovers the cloning operation. The Canto Bight subplot is a world away in comparing it to AOTC, its filling time that goes nowhere for the story and ends up being completely pointless.

Was it an attempt to try and flesh Finn out? To give him something possibly useful to do? Come on though seriously the showdown with (also wasted) Phasma is character development? Not a chance.

But cut out Canto Bight and you wouldn’t notice a difference in the film. That’s not the same for Obi-Wans detective work in AOTC

Finns arc is non-existent, a fantastic idea of a defecting stormtrooper goes nowhere, I think he’s neglected and given how the story goes I think he should have died at the end of TLJ. But the point is he’s sidelined / not developed for one reason or another and whilst on paper it sounds a good idea for a character, he ultimately ends up not delivering. Clearly Boyega feels the same about the situation too. But hey I know you’d disagree that the sky is blue when it comes anything remotely criticising the ST. So whats the point.

 

File this under "dismissing opinions without actually addressing them" I guess?

1 .My point wasn't about frequency of criticism, but about the similarity of the subplots and how they function in their respective films. Both provide worldbuilding and character development while being somewhat detached from the main plot.

2. And yes, many fans absolutely did criticize the oddity of Obi-Wan tracking Jango then being fine with his DNA being used for the clones. Maybe youweren't around here at the height of the PT era?

The whole clone origin story has numerous logical problems that fans have pointed out for years - the convenient timing, the suspicious origins, the Jedi's baffling lack of curiosity about an army that appears out of nowhere. AOTC was mercilessly criticized when it came out and still is today. The BULK of criticisms typically focused on the romance and dialogue, etc... rather than dismissing Obi-Wan's detective work as "pointless" - which is what happens with Finn's journey in TLJ.

The inconsistency in how fans judge these similar storytelling approaches is what's interesting to me. If you disagree with the comparison, fine - but the sarcasm doesn't actually address the point.

 

I hear you, but I disagree with several of your characterizations.

The Canto Bight subplot does much more than "fill time." It reveals the broader political economy of the war, shows who profits from the conflict. Something a bit rare/different for most importantly, provides crucial character development for Finn - transforming him from someone only fighting for his friend to someone who understands the larger stakes and chooses a side. Stylistically, it's actually very Lucas-esque in how it combines social commentary with adventure elements - much like the prequels did with their political storylines.

Calling the Phasma confrontation not character development misses what's happening in that scene. When Finn proudly declares himself "Rebel scum" instead of running away, it shows how far he's come since TFA. It's a bit like when Han officialy becomes "General Solo." That's the definition of character development.

As for "cutting Canto Bight and not noticing a difference" - without it, DJ never betrays the Resistance, the First Order never learns about the escape transports, and the entire third act plays out differently. It's directly consequential to the plot.

Regarding Obi-Wan, his subplot does matter to the larger story, but it's also filled with contrived coincidences and logical issues. While his capture does lead to the Battle of Geonosis, his actual detective work leading to the discovery of the clone army doesn't meaningfully change the overall plot. The clone army would still have existed regardless of whether Obi-Wan found it or not - it was ready to be deployed when needed.

The odd thing is that there is potential for Obi-Wan to be dubious or suspicious of the clone army...but the movie doesn't lean into this. Quite the opposite. Obi-Wan shows a lack of character growth from this experience. Despite uncovering all these suspicious circumstances, he ends AOTC seemingly unconcerned about the clone army's origins. Dones Kenobi even once question or investigate further after learning that a dead Jedi supposedly ordered the army and that it came from the DNA of the very assassin trying to kill Padmé? Nope. Instead, he kinda shrugs his shoulders and attributes the Republic "victory" to the Clones at the end.

I'm not saying either subplot is pointless - I'm noting the inconsistency in how these similar storytelling approaches are judged across different Star Wars films.

Lastly, your closing assumption that I'd "disagree the sky is blue" suggests you've already decided my opinions aren't worth engaging with. That's unfortunate, because I think there's room for nuanced discussion about these films without dismissing each other's viewpoints.

 

We? Just how many of you do you think are here?

 

More than you know.

 

Well, they're not exactly HERE are they. I don't see too many (besides you and maybe Daxon - and that's not exactly the side of any line i would want to find myself on TBH) who are expounding on the creative genius or even creative effort that is "Somehow, Palpatine Returned".

 

Well the Obi Wan story in AOTC is probably more the adventurous plot. It keeps the energy going in the slower moments with Anakin. But ultimately it isnt there for Obi Wans own growth or development. Its there to fill the audience in about the Clones for when they turn up later. Since ultimately its like this...

Obi wan: Hey jedi council, do you know anything about a clone army?

Yoda: Nope, no idea. How mysterious!

Some time later...

Yoda: Hey we are here with the Clone Army!

In terms of what it adds to the Jedi, not a lot because they accept it fairly quick. suggesting nothing was really learnt by them at least.

 

More than you know. This forum has become quite the echo chamber where many feel comfortable piling on, while those who enjoy the ST often avoid engaging because of exactly the attitude you're displaying. Your comment about 'not wanting to be on that side of the line' perfectly illustrates why many ST fans simply don't participate here.

Star Wars fandom is vast and diverse, with plenty of sequel defenders across conventions, social media, and other communities. They don't need to be visibly present in this conversation to exist. The 'us versus them' mentality you're perpetuating is precisely why these fans choose more welcoming spaces where their appreciation isn't met with condescension. It's the same kind of mentality that Ewok haters served up in '83, and Jar Jar haters delivered to fandom in '99. It's not always even about what you are saying, but how you say it. You don't seem open/welcome to other takes. Am I wrong?

Lastly, judging creative merit by popularity in a forum thread is like measuring the Force with a ruler—it misses the point entirely. Your inability to see these fans here doesn't mean they don't exist; it just means they've found communities where discussing what they enjoy about the sequels doesn't require constantly defending their taste against hostility.

By focusing solely on what you dislike about the sequels (and apparently those that actually like the ST films), you've created your own "reality" where anyone appreciating them must be wrong or alone.

As was said, "...your focus determines your reality."

 

It's definitely not the best.

Maybe better would have been to let Obi-wan investigate the assassin thinking it's the Sith Lord. They're still wondering who the Master is after Maul died. He follows the trail, the assassin, thinking it might be the Sith himself, and turns out its just a bounty hunter. How curious. He follows the bounty hunter to X where he then meets Dooku, who then claims to be the Sith Master. Dooku tries to turn Obi-wan, but fails. There he finds the droid army. He has no idea the bounty hunter is also the clone template or that the Sith are working with Palpatine on both sides of the war.

This way Obi-wan doesn't look utterly stupid. Blind. But not stupid.

And instead of Sifo ordering the clones 10 years ago, and making it look like the Jedi secretly plotted to create an Army to fight a war in advance which then Yoda just casually uses (which doesn't make a lot of sense) ... just make it so the Senate feels forced to create the army because they don't trust or believe that the Jedi can do the job to protect the Republic from large-scale treats (since they needed the Gungans to fight a tiny battle just 10 years ago).

The person who leads this pro-miltary/anti-Jedi movement in the senate is Palpatine himself. And so it makes sense for him to control things later on once the Jedi do in fact 'fail'. They insist that the Jedi use the army because it's their job as Protectors of the Republic, and if not, well then there might not be any need for Jedi anyway...and the Senate will just lead the army instead.

And this way the Jedi, Yoda particularily, feels forced to accept due to political maneuvering and believing that if there's any group who would lead an army morally, its the Jedi. Palpatine knows all too well that the Jedi will accept the bait and will come out looking bad in the end and can make the public turn on them later on.

And this way Yoda also doesn't look dumb. Blind. But not ridiculously dumb.

But I digress. This isn't the right forum for this.

My focus? Nah. Bad writing is bad writing. Lack of creativity is apparent. JJ doesn't care for creative specifics. He tosses lines out hoping that the fans will do his homework for him. He used Palpatine because they were desperate and needed a way out of the trilogy that they did not creatively plan (outside of Kylo Ren).

I'm not not seeing the fans. They just don't post here very often. Do they? You and Daxon are kind of it. So the we - here on this forum - is mostly just you two. You don't get to speak for all silent ST fans who don't care enough to post here. Unless they made you their representative somehow. Did I miss the newsletter?

 

There are a lot more people on this forum. They just don't post in this section. and i dunno who can blame them.

 

Many fans don't participate here precisely because of responses like yours. When you declare 'bad writing is bad writing' as if it's objective fact rather than opinion, you're demonstrating exactly the attitude that discourages different perspectives. It's picking sides and drawing lines in the sand, tribalism, etc.

The history of Star Wars fandom is filled with once-derided elements that later became beloved. Many criticized Leia as the sister reveal as a lazy/reductive plot twist when it released. Return of the Jedi was also slammed for the Ewoks. The prequels were 'ruining childhoods' until they weren't.

I don't need a 'newsletter appointment' to observe a pattern that's repeated throughout Star Wars history. Your certainty that your subjective opinion on storytelling choices is the only valid one perfectly illustrates my point about focus creating reality.

I'm not asking you to like the sequels. I'm suggesting that dismissing those who do as wrong or misguided limits conversation rather than enriches it. That's not representative overreach - it's an invitation to consider different perspectives. That said, I suspect that maybe you more enjoy sharing the space with those who share your perspective rather than considering the POV of others. Perhaps I'm wrong?

 

This board probably isn't getting a lot of new members, especially younger ones. My kid grew up with the sequels and he likes all the films. Now he's at an age where he could post online if he wanted, but he simply doesn't care enough about it to bother. Him and his friends are far more interested in the Minecraft film that came out than anything Star Wars related. They also prefer watching YouTube vids of video game how to's. I wouldn't take participation here as an indication of how Star Wars fandom is viewed and to be measured.

Personally I like the ST. I know they have flaws and I wish they were better, but they feel like real movies to me. I loathe the PT. I find them truly awful and don't care that they are Lucas' vision. Bad writing is bad writing, as is bad acting & bad directing.

That being said I still think Finn was done dirty.

 

Finn's subplot doesn't matter because the First Order doesn't matter. Its why the final battle of the trilogy is Palpatine and the Final Order, with all the other First Order characters dead by then. Snoke was just a puppet of Palpatine and Hux and Phasma were jokes.

Obi-wan's subplot not only introduces the clone army, it also shows how oblivious the Jedi already are, setting up for their fall in Episode III. Its not just because the prequels led into the OT, but Lucas continuing the prequel trilogy's overall plot. If the prequels' plot (bad as they are) was at the level of the sequels, then Palpatine wouldn't show up until the third movie with a magic artifact that could kill almost all the Jedi in the galaxy just like that. Obi-wan's AotC plot is convoluted and contrived, definitely, but it does add to the overall trilogy. The First Order doesn't matter because TRoS tossed them out to try to come up with a more flashy finish. That's partially on Abrams of course, but he's not the one in charge, that's on Disney-Lucasfilm's and really is just the obvious endpoint of how they mismanaged the sequels.

Just because you label poison as water doesn't mean it won't hurt. Similarly, TLJ's war profiteer subplot doesn't actually add to the trilogy despite pretending otherwise. Just because they show a slideshow of an X-wing and TIE Fighter, some of us don't suddenly get amnesia and forget about the First Order's flying city chasing after a few Resistance ships that barely has any fuel left. Or trying to both-sides the pure evil of the First Order against the Resistance, even with how incompetent they try to make Poe and Finn look.

And then there's how little war to actually profit off of. The New Republic is already gone, and no one is able or willing to show up to help the Resistance who are flying literal junk against shiny First Order walkers.

So Canto Bight is just a waste of time, and that's even before the next movie devalued the war against the First Order even more.

This isn't simply about whether someone liked Johnson's themes or not, its about how contradictory the movie is, with its own messages (wasting so much time on something like Canto Bight), but also how little any of it matters by the next movie. If that doesn't bother your enjoyment of the sequels, fine, that's up to you, but Obi-wan's plot (convoluted as it was) did add to the prequel trilogy.

Everybody has their own opinions, but not everything is subjective. Of course then there's the debate on what isn't subjective of course, but you'd think something like evil is evil would be simple enough but then we got the sequels with Kylo so its sure been an... experience finding out how much worse Star Wars could become.

 

TROS didn't toss the first order out at all. I think you assume Palpatine disconnects the first order from the plot, when he is infact in charge of the first order too. That became very noticeable when talking to Pryde. But thats Palpatine in a nutshell, allowing a false sense of security when he always had control.

It would be like thinking the 2nd deathstar took focus away from the Empire as a threat alone because this superweapon took so much focus as being the real threat.

 

For what it's worth, I don't agree with Johnson at all. I see Ren as a villain...not someone to "relate to." Viewers have always been free to agree or disagree with directorial intent - that's part of engaging with art. That said:

Johnson giving a general statement about his creative vision is fundamentally different from a forum member like @DarkGingerJedi specifically stating:

The tribalism I'm speaking with is how we as fans interact with each other on these boards. Calling someone out in a hostile manner... it creates an environment where many fans don't feel welcome to express their perspectives.

That's the real reason it's basically just a few people discussing their appreciation of the ST here - not because there's some universal consensus about the films' quality. It's simply because many have found other communities where they can share their perspectives without constant dickery.*

*Attacking the person, versus just offering a differing opinion.

To be clear @DarkGingerJedi: My inbox is full of people who feel the same and have jumped ship. While I don't presume to speak for them, I can assure you that there is definitely a shared sentiment amongst casual (and longtime) posters this place is more toxic than it has been in a long time.

 

You kinda did though. You're the one who spoke as a WE. Appeals to popularity are meaningless. Appeals to age are also meaningless. I've been posting here since 2002 (Under a long forgotten name and AOL email that I can't open anymore lol). But so what? Do only long time posters thoughts count now? Should we weight comments as being more factual if they're from older posters?

I actually ... don't really care how many supposed emails are in your inbox. Trust me, you're not the only one. So just speak for yourself. That's all. There's nothing toxic about critiquing a movie. Even 7 years out. Calling people who disagree with you toxic, is kinda toxic though.

And if you really want toxic I suggest you wade into Youtube comments sections. Or Reddit. This place is kindergarten compared to those places. The mods here, and the general overall sentiments, keeps this place pretty clean and tidy.

 

My point has nothing to do with the frequency of the criticism either. My point is that the subplots and how they function in their respective films is not at all similar in the ways that matter for this discussion. And apparently some of the disconnect comes from here:

because I'm aware of these sorts of criticisms, they just have nothing to do with what we're talking about. Not one of them has anything to do with whether what Obi-wan is up to is important to the larger plot. Because of course it is. That's why I'm so dismissive of the idea that even you believe that it could be said that it isn't. However ,based on this

I get the impression that you don't believe that people are being literal when they voice this frustration? That what they actually mean is they just don't like it but instead of being honest about their position they're being unfairly hyperbolic and saying it just shouldn't exist? And that's how it's similar to the Obi-wan plot, just generically one character off on their own doing something the audience doesn't enjoy? Because that's not what people mean. While it's true that there are execution issues that people have problems with, those are YMMV. The broader point when it comes to Finn and his role in the trilogy, is that it is objectively true that the mission contributes absolutely nothing to the Resistance's escape effort, which is ostensibly the storyline it's supposed to be a part of. If Finn just remained in his coma for all of TLJ the overall plot of the film(and trilogy) can proceed almost entirely unchanged, which is not something you would typically expect to say about a character of Finn's level of prominence(And just to reiterate, is certainly not something you can say about Obi-wan's Kamino adventure).



On a separate note about the other discussion going on in here:
As a veteran of this forum, I have absolutely noticed a long time ago the issue where enjoyers of the film feel frustrated by the environment they encounter and eventually leave. The quality of the discussion naturally diminishes with fewer participants representing fewer viewpoints. It's something I've been aware was happening, but realistically I'm not sure what you can do about it. Mods can step in when the lines are crossed, but even if I owned the site and had sole discretion to police things however I saw fit with no regards to things like maintaining consistent policies or respecting precedential decisions, I don't know what you rules you can possibly hope to implement that allows both sides to coexist happily when you have a significant population that is genuinely upset by the movies. If you have 20 active people who hate the movies (seems unheard of now, but these forums really did used to be a lot more active. You can find old polls with literally 100s of votes on them), then for any one positive post 17 of them can say "You know what? I disagree but it's not one of my main complaints, so I'll just be nice and let this one go without commenting" and from the poster's perspective you've still got 3 people immediately jumping on you because from their perspective what you've written looks like "you know what my favorite part was? When they absolutely ruined your favorite character. I hope they do that again in the future." How do you fix that? I've never had any great ideas, so here we are.

 

Yep, I typed an offhanded comment : "We get it. You don't like Sequel Trilogy."

What's more likely...?

A. That I used "we" to convery my belief that I literally represent the sentiment every ST fan on this forum and possibly the world.

B. That I was using "we" in the colloquial sense to express lighthearted annoyance.

If you don't know the answer, I suppose it's on me. Tone is hard to glean sometimes from text. Maybe I should have included more silly Emperor gifs????

I've never suggested critique of the movies is toxic. Critique the films all you want - that's what discussion forums are for. The issue is when comments shift from critiquing the movies to making remarks about the fans who enjoy them, claiming there's a 'side' people shouldn't want to be on...which is exactly what you did.

The issue is when your comments shift from critiquing movies to judging fans who enjoy them (as you often do).

When you state there's a 'side' people shouldn't want to be on (as you have just done), you're engaging in tribal gatekeeping - deliberately trying to create artificial divisions within fandom while implying your intellectual superiority. You're turning film preferences into a moral choice rather than subjective taste. That's what creates an unwelcoming environment, not film criticism itself.

I'm not sure you need this explained to you, but it IS toxic and it makes people not want to hang around here...so they leave.

Saying 'other places are worse' doesn't address the point. YouTube being a cesspool doesn't mean we shouldn't expect better here. That's like saying 'be grateful your neighbor only insults you instead of punching you. I frequent the comment sections you speak of. So far, no one has threatened to doxx me there. Not the case at this Star Wars fan site.

 

I'm sorry if I misunderstood/misread you. Your dismissal of my comparison as something "never heard from a human being" until now seemed to explicitly about frequency. You implied my view was newly invented solely to defend the ST rather than addressing the actual comparison.

The similarity I pointed out is precisely what matters for this discussion - both subplots provide worldbuilding and character development while being somewhat separate from the main narrative thrust. I feel as if you may be creating arbitrary criteria for what "matters" to dismiss the comparison.

No, you're missing my point...it might be my fault for not being clear, etc. I get what people/critics mean when they say Finn's subplot is "pointless." What I'm questioning is the inconsistent standard being applied.

You claim Finn's subplot "contributes absolutely nothing" to the main plot, but this is factually incorrect. DJ's betrayal directly leads to the First Order discovering the cloaked transports, which changes the entire third act of the film. Without the Canto Bight mission, this critical plot development doesn't happen.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan's discovery of the clone army doesn't fundamentally change anything about the wider plot - the army would have existed and been deployed whether he found it or not. Yet Kenobi's subplot is treated as essential while Finn's is dismissed despite having direct plot consequences.

***Lastly, don't get me wrong: I don't enjoy Finn's subplot more. I prefer Obi-Wan's. Yet, that's just because of the setting of Kamino, Obi-Wan's humor, Jango Fett, lightsabers, etc. That's all window dressing and "gaga"...but it's a lot cooler window dressing and gaga than Finn's subplot.

If people want to criticize THAT aspect of Finn's TLJ subplot compared to Obi-Wan's, or even Han/Leia in ESB...I'm all for it. Storywise thought...they are structurally more similar than people give credit for.

As a veteran of this site, I appreciate you saying this. It makes me realize I'm not imagining things or going crazy.

I agree with much of what you say. I've said it before, the PT was just as divisive (actually moreso) and there used to be a "haters forum" that was like a pressure release valve. I dunno what the fix is.

Fandom has, and continues to evolve, social media has impacted how we communicate online and you can even see it here. As I said, I literally unignored a member that I ignore button on for years and got doxxed by them within days.

I've said this before... I teach grades 7-12 and most of those kids absolutely love the ST. Disney SW is "their" Star Wars (especially Mando) and it's a completely different perspective/lens/reality than was is reflected in these forums.

It might be time for me to move on....at least until the next trilogy (or banner contest) comes along....

 

The sequel films themselves have caused much division and derision, primarily because they are the result of an approach where creativity and innovation come second to making the fastest possible £$. They act as meaningless libations to corporate greed and excess, and are a testament to what can be produced when you remove all creative/visionary aspirations from Star Wars. Of course, that they have no real artistic merit, and are fundamentally flawed films, means that they leave a vacuum at the heart of discussion and evaluation (certainly at a fan level), as there's very little to collectively celebrate about them... and invariably it becomes a conversation about what could have been and what led to them resulting in such poor/inferior films. And obviously some people have a problem with that being the only course on the menu... but ultimately the market dictates. I suspect, in terms of the ST, this will only get worse if the slew of films allegedly in production heavily lean into the ST... as that's a clear indication that DLF, much like Trump, doesn't understand the market.

That there's very few fans of the ST within fandom itself is not a result of the discourse per se, but a reflection of the films themselves. What certainly hasn't helped the ST is that there hasn't been live action films to fill that space and move the conversation on, post TROS... and TROS is still the last/latest SW film out there. *If* Mando & Grogu is a good/well received film, then that will move things away from the ST, and discussions may become a bit more optimistic and less a postmortem on the sequels and their negative impact on the brand/IP.

 

Again the Han/Leia subplot is adding more layers to the characters. The space slug landing is just a mechanism to build their relationship into something that makes later scenes more impactful. I'd say it was successful as it takes what we see early on in the Hoth base and develops it. Finn with Rose isn't in the same ball park writing wise or with how well it works, they might have been trying to ape something from Empire but they just don't get close. There are a few aspects of TLJ that are trying to cash in on Empire, but when its so superficial with no real attempt to go all in on it and be original, then I think it just falls flat. You could apply this to all the films in the ST, but it takes more than images and paying homage to something to make it good in its own right.