Saga The Origins of Luke's father - Annikin Starkiller, Anakin Skywalker, or Darth Vader?

Correct. In the first draft of ANH, the father is Kane Starkiller and is 45 years old. He is also a cyborg in this version. He dies mid way through the script. In the second draft, the Starkiller is 300 years old and a Jedi. In the third draft, the father is killed by Vader before being injured.

To be fair, casting Guinness and later Shaw lends credence to the notion that they were the same age bracket. Luke Skywalker and Kane Starkiller were different ages, but the Starkiller was pretty old. The description for Ben Kenobi paints him as an old man.

Plus, the way Timothy Zahn and Joe Flynn believed that there were years between the Clone Wars and the Jedi Purge seemed to support the notion of an age disparity between Vader and Annikin.

 

In the third draft Ben Kenobi "appears to be at least seventy years old". In that draft Luke states that "General Kenobi was my father’s commander, and he is probably the greatest of all the Jedi knights… or at least my father thought so." But the fourth draft develops away from the idea of a large age gap between Annikin Starkiller and Ben Kenobi, since Ben says to Luke "You are much like your father [...] We were good friends." This emphasis continues into the final film, with the implication by Obi-Wan that Annikin followed his friend from their shared home planet of Tatooine to join the Jedi Knights and participate in some "damn fool crusade" - perhaps exactly the way Luke yearned to follow Biggs.

The fourth draft also clarifies that Vader is much younger than Ben Kenobi, and presumably Annikin as well. In the third draft, Vader is described as a "disciple" of Ben Kenobi, while in the fourth draft Ben describes Vader as "a young Jedi, Darth Vader, one of my disciples".

The implication here is that Lucas had the same basic relationship in mind from the third draft onwards - Ben Kenobi and Annikin Starkiller were good friends and fellow Jedi, with Ben likely a bit older, while Darth Vader was much younger than both of them. In the fourth draft Lucas simply updated the dialogue to clarify their relationships. The notion of merging Vader and Annikin was presumably not yet in his mind.

This is why, when Lucas did finally merge Vader and Annikin, he had to decide which age to make Vader - to make him an old man, a contemporary of Ben Kenobi as he'd first imagined Luke's father, or to make him a younger man at the time of his fall, the way Vader was initially envisioned. With the casting of Sebastian Shaw in ROTJ, he evidently opted for the former choice, but reversed coursed in the prequels with Hayden Christensen as a younger Anakin, providing a stronger parallel to Luke.

Still, I can't help thinking that the character of Count Dooku, an elderly Jedi who falls to the dark side for political reasons rather than out of youthful passion, was heavily based on the way Lucas envisioned an older Vader having fallen to darkness around the time of making ROTJ.

 

Agree and some further comments.
In the various drafts of RotJ, in some both Obi-Wan and Anakin came back to life in the end. I do not think Anakin says anything by he is described as an old man.

In the shooting script, when Luke takes the mask from Vader, it says

Not an elderly looking man, an elderly man.
With this last bit, Shaw had been cast I think but it was still up in the air if he would show up as a Force ghost.

Also, in the novelization of ANH, Vader is referred to as a "boy" by Obi-Wan. Again implying an age difference to Luke's father.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

@darth-sinister @BlackRanger @Samuel Vimes:

There seems to be undue weight being placed upon the casting and the (apparent) age of the actors involved, when as I've noted, there's no concrete statements or notes available that would pinpoint their ages (specifically Luke's father and Vader's).

Right, and as I pointed out, Ben Kenobi was the only one that Lucas described as old.

But that's their particular personal interpretation. It doesn't necessarily come from Lucas. It isn't specified that way in the back-story transcripts that took place in the Summer of 1977 (in light of the specific information he detailed in those notes).

But as I've pointed out, the film does not imply that Tatooine was the home planet Ben Kenobi as well as Luke's father. Nor did Lucas imply as much in any back-story notes or interviews that he gave back then. I'm also not aware of Lucas making a parallel between that of Luke following Biggs with that of his father following Ben (Obi-Wan). The only parallel Lucas seemed to draw was between Ben and Vader as the 'good father' and 'bad father' respectively, and between Luke training under Ben Kenobi, and Vader training under Ben Kenobi (the latter more so in TESB). The 'like father, like son' aspect that @patbuddha pointed out. Which brings up another point - it makes more sense to me for Lucas to draw parallels between Luke and Vader rather than with his unnamed father, if indeed Vader turns out to be the same person as Luke's (as yet) unnamed father. As far as the "we were good friends" part from the Fourth draft, by the Revised Fourth draft - and in the film - Lucas has tempered this to "and he was a good friend'.

I know that much is made of Ben's verbiage in that scene. But it should also be tempered by Luca's statements after Star Wars came out where he freely describes Ben, Luke's father, and Vader as "young Jedi Knights" during the back-story prequel(s) that he was proposing.

You're basically right in the first paragraph. Although, I would say that with the prequels, he was reverting back to the TESB stage, where the parallel was specifically drawn between Luke and Vader (and maybe only implied by Lucas during interviews regarding the first film). At this stage, Lucas was content to imply that Luke's father and Vader were roughly the same age - and both may have been trained under Ben (though whether concurrently or separately is not established), but then maybe realized the difficulty of maintaining the facade/illusion of the Vader-killed-Luke's father scenario where Vader strangely comes off as a doppelganger of Luke's father (both skilled pilots, students of Ben, described as 'tall', identical lightsabers, etc.). Edit to add: more reason I suppose for Lucas to stick to the 'original story' as he puts it.

Count Dooku for me could also represent the 'original' Darth Vader that Annikin supposedly killed and subsequently took the identity of, in that 1981 Fangora scenario/speculation.

 

Well, the fact that Luke has an "Uncle Owen" and "Aunt Beru" on Tatooine is a strong indicator that Annikin might have also grown up on Tatooine, for one thing.

There's also the fact that in the third draft, Luke knows the location of Ben Kenobi's house because it's described in "my father's tapes". Which means that Ben Kenobi lived on Utapau/Tatooine before the decisive battle of Condawn where the Jedi Knights (including Luke's father) were wiped out. In other words, it was already his home.

 

Hmm..I had missed that part of the Third draft. While true of the Third draft, it seems by the Fourth Lucas had changed it to Ben having been "chased" to Tatooine by the Empire/Vader.* As far as Owen and Beru, Lucas even back then in interviews or in his notes had never specified one or the other as the biological sibling of Luke's father.

*also in the Third draft, the Rebellion didn't seem to know that Ben was on Tatooine(Utapau) or wasn't looking for him - unlike in the Fourth draft(s).

 

Even in the final film we still have the notion that Annikin followed Obi-Wan on "some damned-fool idealistic crusade." Which most likely started with them both leaving Annikin's home planet of Tatooine. So Annikin and Obi-Wan would both have known that world fairly well.

And yet, Darth Vader cannot find Kenobi when he returns there to hide from the Empire. As Ben Kenobi puts it in the fourth draft, "Vader has chased me across the galaxy but I’ve outsmarted him. He’s still looking for me, but I’m well hidden and The Force is strong with me."

This is one of the most glaring indicators that Annikin and Vader were originally separate people. The original reason that Vader could not find Ben Kenobi despite years of searching is obvious. Unlike Annikin, Vader doesn't know about Tatooine. Why should he? It's a backwater dust ball of no importance. Annikin grew up there and evidently left as fast as possible, but he would still know it intimately. Yet for Vader, it's not even on his radar.

But when Lucas eventually merged the characters of Vader and Luke's father, this became a lingering plot hole. The prequels eventually plugged it by having Anakin born into slavery and having such a strong loathing of his homeworld that he refused to look for any surviving Jedi there as Vader. But the original explanation was much simpler: Vader, unlike Luke's father, has never been to Tatooine before, so he doesn't know anything about it, and hasn't the faintest clue that it might be a place of refuge for Ben Kenobi.

 

One influence that likely helped to push Lucas into merging Vader and Annikin didn't come out until early 1976: namely, Frank Herbert's Children of Dune.

Herbert's novel was serialized in Analog magazine from January to April 1976, though US magazine cover dates are usually at least a month in advance of when they're really sold, so the publication period would have been more like December 1975 to March 1976, with the complete novel coming out as a standalone publication in April.

In Children of Dune, Leto II, son of Paul Atreides, grows up to inherit the throne of his absent father, who wandered off into the desert seemingly to die at the end of Dune Messiah. Paul is still alive, but when Leto finally meets him, he realizes that his father is a misguided relic of the past: a feudal aristocrat who refused out of pride and vanity to make the sacrifice required of him, one which Leto ultimately performs in his stead. Namely, transforming himself into a nigh-immortal sandworm-human hybrid in order to reign over humanity for a millennium or so and set them upon the Golden Path of long-term survival.

Paul, the hero of the first book, is now revealed as a flawed old man in the eyes of his son, who does what the father could not. A theme of generational conflict with obvious bearing on the writing process that resulted in Lucas making Darth Vader and Luke's famous Jedi father the same person. (Of course, other factors like the surfeit of Force ghosts in Leigh Brackett's ESB first draft came into play as well, but Herbert's influence surely helped tip the scales somewhat.)

Whatever influence Children of Dune might have had on Lucas' fourth-draft scripts for SW 1977 is debatable, since the story was still coming out as he was writing them (and by March of 1976 he was getting ready to start filming in Tunisia). But he certainly took notice of it when he was writing ESB. Even before Leigh Brackett was approached to write the first draft, Lucas' early notes feature a conversation between Luke and the character who ultimately became Yoda which is wholly plagiarized from a conversation in Herbert's novel between Prince Farad'n Corrino and Paul's mother, Lady Jessica.

The note in question was published in JW Rinzler's The Making of ESB. I'm certain Lucasfilm execs had no idea precisely what it revealed about Lucas' reading habits, or else they would have excised it from the book. Frank Herbert himself would gladly have sued Lucas into oblivion if he'd had such proof of "borrowing" during his lifetime.

 

He took a shot at SW in Heretics of Dune:

From the most ancient times, the knowledgeable had preferred to surround themselves with fine woods rather than with the mass-produced artificial materials known then as polastine, polaz, and pormabat (latterly: tine, laz, and bat). As far back as the Old Empire there had been a pejorative label for the small rich and Families Minor arising from the knowledge of a rare wood's value. 'He's a three-P-O,' they said, meaning that such a person surrounded himself with cheap copies made from declasse substances.

 

And in Herbert's 1978 revision of his novel Destination: Void (previously published in 1966), about a spaceship crewed entirely by clones, the revised text adds a mention that one of the clones on the crew manifest is a "Legata Lon Hamill".

The last name is an obvious jab at the star of SW, while the first name is borrowed from the Roman Empire title of "legate", the commander of an army legion who held that office by appointment of the Emperor. Herbert is saying that SW would be nothing without Dune to borrow ideas from, in other words.

In Herbert's novel (both original and revised texts) all the clones have the common middle name "Lon" - after Lon Chaney, "the Man of a Thousand Faces". I suspect Lucas read this novel as well, and it's probably one reason why he changed Kenobi's true first name from Ben to Obi-Wan in the revised fourth draft. In fact, Lucas might have toyed with the fleeting idea that Obi-Wan Kenobi was a clone himself, as denoted by his middle name: a "pale imitation" of the real "Obi Kenobi".

 

Yeah, but Lucas was interested in casting Toshrio Mifune as Obi-Wan, hence the name change. That just became the excuse after the fact.

 

Some of Lucas' early notes for ESB do suggest the possibility of bringing back Obi-Wan as a clone. Specifically, they state: "Ben is not 'dead'. 'I have worked with several of JenJerod's clones.' Ben in netherworld cannot stay there forever; helpful in blocking areas of the Force to Vader and Emperor."

What exactly this note means is somewhat murky. It could be that Lucas had two contradictory thoughts in mind: the first, that maybe a clone of Obi-Wan was still alive (or that the Obi-Wan in the first movie was a clone whose original would now appear); and the second, that Obi-Wan really had passed on, and that eventually his ghostly manifestation on the earthly plane would have to cease as well.

Or perhaps the two ideas were connected, with the notion of a plot thread where Obi-Wan's spirit could re-embody itself at some future point in one of "JenJerod's clones". Who exactly this "JenJerod" might be is unclear, though this must have been an earlier version of the name later given to the separate character of Moff Jerjerrod in ROTJ.

 

Doesn't Yoda's dialogue in ESB imply that Vader never completed his Jedi training? Yoda says, "If you leave now, help them you could. But, you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered" and then goes on to say, "Only a fully trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

 

I don’t think so. Just afraid that Luke needed more training to better ensure he could resist the dark side. It just says Vader chose the quick and easy path, but it doesn’t need to be related to his training not being complete.

 

A New Hope has "was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil" and "when I left you I was but the learner, now I am the master" as hints that Obi-Wan was still in the process of training Vader, when Vader turned, in the original conception of the character.

 

Agree about this. If Vader is Luke's father and he knew where Obi-Wan lived, why would he not go after him?
So the third draft does not really fit with Vader as Luke's father. One, why would Vader not go after Obi-Wan? Two, Vader knows he has a kid and knows where that kid lives and yet makes no effort to get that kid? Three, Luke clearly knew his father and he was told about his father's death, probably because it was a big battle and Luke's father was someone known so word could get around. If Luke's father turned evil, why would people lie about it? Note it is not Obi-Wan that told Luke this because Luke had never met Obi-Wan before.

In the fourth draft and finished film, Luke's father clearly lived on Tatooine before he left with Obi-Wan, if Obi-Wan also lived on Tatooine and left with Anakin to become Jedi is possible. If not, did Obi-Wan just happen to pass by, meet Anakin and they left?
And here, Anakin told Obi-Wan that he wanted Luke to have his lightsaber one day.
If Anakin is Vader, that is very odd.
Sure you can get around it by having Obi-Wan lie about it but that is a bit clunky.

How the PT "plugged it" is hit and miss to me. Anakin knows about Owen and Beru but he has no real connection to them and has little reason to think about them. And as far as Anakin knows, Obi-Wan has never been on Tatooine so Anakin has no reason to think that Obi-Wan would go there.
It is very questionable to send Luke there for two reasons. One, Anakin is aware of them and Obi-Wan/Yoda would know that. Two, neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan has ever met Owen/Beru so they have no idea who they are. It is not even clearly established that they know they even exist or where they are. So why send Luke to these two random people? They have no idea if Owen/Beru would even accept Luke or how well they would take care of him.

Agree and that Obi-Wan refers to himself and Anakin as Jedi Knights but Vader is just "young Jedi".
In ESB, Obi-Wan says " This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."
Implying that being half-trained is when Jedi run the greatest risk of turning and this is what happened with Vader.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Also in reference to what @Iron_lord and @Samuel Vimes posted:

But then at this point - circa ESB - the conventional assumption of the 'orthodox' version of events that by the time of ESB was made, Lucas had already decided that Vader was Luke's father. Therefore anything Yoda or Obi-Wan says can't be seen as anything other than obfuscation (directed towards Luke and the audience) rather than as 'evidence' or proof of Lucas' true intentions at the time, (supposedly) Vader's separate identity from that of Luke's father (Annikin or Anakin).

@BlackRanger :

Backtracking a bit to where you mention how Lucas had to choose - and made different choices - with Vader/Anakin's back-story version of events with ROTJ versus how he chose to depict Anakin in the PT. While true that PT portrayed Anakin as having turned to the dark side and become Vader at an age more fitting or parallel with Luke's apparent age in the OT - though what you presented as being more consistent with Vader's 'original' back-story - I had forgotten to mention one other notable thing: Anakin is shown in the PT to have completed his Jedi training and have become a full-fledged Jedi Knight.

 

I wasn't arguing that there was an implication that Vader is a separate person from Luke's father. I was arguing that the implication was that Luke's father became Vader because he didn't complete his Jedi training.

 

Thank you for clarifying. Though I can see how someone* could misread your post as making that argument. The follow-up would be to ask what does ROTJ reveal on the matter? I've seen it argued by some that Obi-Wan's dialogue in ROTJ implies that Luke's father didn't complete his Jedi training, while others have said that ROTJ basically squares with what the PT showed. Or rather, that the PT agrees with ROTJ.

* @Samuel Vimes seems to have taken it that way:
"Agree and that Obi-Wan refers to himself and Anakin as as Jedi Knights but Vader is just "young Jedi".
In ESB, Obi-Wan says " This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."
Implying that being half-trained is when Jedi run the greatest risk of turning and this is what happened with Vader."

I agree with what @Ghost posted:
"I don’t think so. Just afraid that Luke needed more training to better ensure he could resist the dark side. It just says Vader chose the quick and easy path, but it doesn’t need to be related to his training not being complete."

 

My point was not that ESB tried to suggest that Vader was different from Luke's father.
Only that Vader in ANH is implied to not have finished his training before he turned evil and ESB suggest that being half-trained is dangerous for a Jedi, that is when they are most tempted by the Dark Side.
Because they feel the Force but can not yet control it.
The misdirection that ESB does is how Vader and the Emperor are careful to not say that Luke is Vader's son. But in RotJ they have no problem saying that. But the reason for this is obvious, you would not spoil that fact at this point. So no issue here.

And like I have said long ago, ESB leaves it possible that Vader is Luke's father but is not Anakin.
The would explain why Vader was so sure that Obi-Wan had not told Luke. And it would be a secret ace up his sleeve that not even the emperor knows about.
But I doubt Lucas ever considered that.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

To be fair regarding Anakin being a Jedi in the PT, he was in name only. He had not reached the level of maturity that another Jedi would have regarding attachments. He didn't pass the trials because he didn't take them. He was advanced solely based on need.

Note that in the story meetings for ROTJ that Lucas doesn't specify that Anakin was fully trained or not. Just that he was spending time with Palpatine and he was turning him to the dark side. In the description of the turn in the third draft of ANH, Ben said that Vader was his student when he betrayed them.

 

So, kind of, does the final movie.

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil"

is pretty close to

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a student of mine until he betrayed us"