Andor Andor Episode 2.03 Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

And apparently this was not scripted! A cooperative improv between Kyle Soller and Ariel Kleiman.

 

So forgive me if I missed discussion on this. What's the consensus on Kellen? Did he actually betray Brasso and the gang or was Brasso pretending to protect Kellen and his family? I read the scene as Brasso pretending because of a small head knod from Kellen, but I've seen several takes from folks that Kellen did betray them.

I just watched the interview where Denise Gough and Kyle Soller mentioned that and hilariously Tony Gilroy was like wtf are you doing Kyle. Haha It's brilliant, I'm thrilled they kept it in.

 

There wasn't an Empire when Dedra Meero was a child (unless she's a LOT younger than she looks), so how could she have been raised in an "Imperial" kinderblock?

 

I thought so too because it looked like Brasso and the woman there had some kind of relationship. I think he was sacrificing himself to save them. That would well be in his character too.

 

Probably based on the notion that the Empire will stay away from referencing the Republic in any form, or people might actually think there is an alternative to having an Empire.

Also, it's not like an orphan suddenly gets to leave at age six or something. If she spend her entire childhood and youth there, then it was probably an Imperial facility for quite some time of that.

 

What's the name of the creepy rapist Imperial?

Reminds me of Incels.

 

I missed this on first viewing, but caught it the second time, and it was crystal clear. Kellen's wife, who didn't want an immigrant boy seeing her daughter, turned them in. When the imperial inspectors arrive, she exits the house, glances at the kid's speeder, and then gravely tells her daughter to get inside. When Kellen is later accused by Brasso of betrayal, Kellen is totally at a loss. He didn't do it. He'd already risked a lot to help them, and it didn't make sense for him to betray them now. But his wife was more risk averse, and didn't like her daughter dating an immigrant boy, and so made the decision to report them. Take another look. It's all there. But I missed it the first time around. It's a subtle bit of filmmaking.

No, Kellen's wife turned them in.

Simple. There was a huge imperial inspection going on there, and Cassian is a wanted spy for the rebellion. So going there was a big risk for the rebellion. If he's caught, they lose a top spy, and if he's tortured, the whole rebellion could be compromised. After all, he works directly for Luthen.

 

That's funny, because that's not how I read that at all. I thought she noticed the creepy predator imp checking out her daughter, got bad vibes, and told her to go inside immediately. I could be wrong though. But that's how interpreted in when I first watched it.

 

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I think your interpretation is absolutely right on.

 

He was killed the same reason Andor killed his contact at the beginning of Rogue One, the odds were they would talk. Feels like Tay lost too much and is looking for any way out. Once the threat of betrayal is utter, it can't really be taken back. Desperate people make desperate decisions.

 

I think there's a clear reason why they noted that the girl's mom didn't want the kid seeing her daughter.

 

Except it was Brasso who was caught not Wil? I think the interpretation being that Brasso was distancing himself from Kellen to protect Kellen makes more sense.

 

Wil rushed off. I'm almost sure she collaborated to turn them in. Because of the hints about her not wanting her daughter to date one of the toolies, and because the stormtrooper who catches Brasso saying "found one." It's possible Brasso put on an act to protect Kellen, I suppose, but I'm not sure. This could go either way.

 

The dinner scene with Syril's mother looks like something Stanley Kubrick might have filmed.

 

Gave all 3 episodes an 8. Very solid. Great. But leaving room to be 9-10 level blown away.

 

And if anyone thinks sexual assault is too 'real world' for SW, they only have to remember some of the scenes in Jabba's palace..

 

This episode kinda made me like Davo as a character, a man who cares about the history of his people and who loves his wife.

 

Yes and no. Jabba could not actually rape Leia, as in he did not try to actually forcibly have sex with her. This was more about him seeing her as his trophy in ROTJ, the same way he had Han hanging on his wall as a decoration. With Jabba, it was more about treating those dancers as a display of power and wealth. It was done as an homage to pulpy comics and serials, where the trope of rescuing scantily clad princesses was very prevalent, and it was likely not actually intended by Lucas to be an actual depiction of sexual assault. Not saying any of it is okay, but again, as far as authorial intent goes, I don't think ROTJ was ever meant to portray sexual assault. I didn't see it ever stated in any of the BTS material or interviews.

As far as Andor goes, this felt more like cheap shock value than anything else. We already hated the Empire and knew they did terrible things. It's not like rape is any worse than blowing up a planet with billions of people, or countless of genocides, or slave prisons, and so on. Empire is evil - we get it. But I guess rape is also on our checklist now. Bix had already hated the Empire, and she had already gone through terrible torture in S1. I really don't see any particular purpose to this. It was done just for the sake of it, because historically there was a lot of rape - this is basically what Gilroy has said, therefore we must show rape:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/andor-star-wars-season-2-bix-rape-interview-1236191397/
The same way they are clearly proud of saying the word **** multiple times in this show, cause it's "Star Wars for adults", the same way the scene was deliberately constructed to call attention to the word "rape", because it had never been said in Star Wars before. Just shock value.

I don't want to have to discuss these things in the context of Star Wars, and I never thought I'd have to, but this show made it possible for some reason, lol.

 

This mini arc of 3 episodes reminded me exactly what makes Andor such a unique experience within Star Wars.

It’s incredibly well-crafted, brilliantly written, with a focus on character detail exploring the best and worst of human nature. It’s thought provoking, tense, funny, and surprising. It’s beautiful to look at and the actors give award-worthy performances. I find most of the key characters interesting.

And yet when the episodes end they don’t linger in my mind for days the same way my other favorite Star Wars films and TV shows do. I didn’t go back to rewatch Andor S1 prior to S2. I didn’t rewatch any of the episodes and I don’t know if I will. The heavy focus on realism is both its greatest strength but also what keeps me from feeling a strong, almost spiritual connection from the material the way I do other Star Wars content with the light and dark side of the force, more fantasy elements intertwined, and a greater desire to generate fun.

Part of my brain knows that this show has raised the bar for what Star Wars can be but another part can’t shake that it’s also lost a lot of what makes Star Wars so special and fun and unique onto itself in the first place. Fantasy is so much at the heart of Star Wars for me that removing most of that from it — even though it makes complete sense here with this story of the humans who shaped the rebellion — takes something special away for me.

I know Andor is harder to criticize around acting, writing, or plot holes and that it’s arguably the best crafted and most mature Star Wars show to date. I think of this regularly while watching the show.

However, I honestly feel like Favreau, Filoni, Headland and Chow gave me more moments I wanted to go back and rewatch a second time. The kinds of moments where I’m thinkng “Oh, man, is this really about to happen?” And then it does. Moments that more consistently make me feel young again in a good way and that’s priceless to me. Rogue One had just enough additional spirituality by way of characters like Chirrut and Vader, a sassy and capable droid more directly involved, and a fun 1980s oddball gang up genre tone to it, along with a few fun creatures, and a fantastic father and child story at its heart to help offset for the realism increase and reduced fantasy elements. It felt like a better balance of what Star Wars has always done well while also showing how increased realism and strong, committed acting could go a long way to lifting the IP further. I’m happy that others love this on a deeper level though and that there’s something different for all of us.

In summary, I know it’s great. I’d rate it great. I enjoy the show on a cerebral level but I don’t love it the same way I do other Star Wars material. That’s a me problem. Not an Andor problem.

 

In Larry Kasdan's second-draft script for ROTJ, the dialogue quite literally employs the old euphemism "fate worse than death" to describe what Jabba wants to do and/or actually does offscreen to Leia.

Later revisions by George Lucas have an exchange between Leia and Lando as she's taken into custody by Jabba's goons, where Leia tells him that "I'll be all right" but Lando replies "I'm not so sure." An exchange that is (likely quite deliberately) ambiguous, capable of being read at different levels by children vs. adults in the audience. Either Leia is confident that Jabba won't really harm her - or won't have time to do so before Luke arrives, at least. Or she knows exactly the sort of depravity he could subject her to, especially as a survivor of Imperial torture on the Death Star, and is grimly prepared to face it if necessary.

 

It should be noted that we don't yet know what the foundation of Dedra and Syril's relationship is yet. It could be the true love, albeit as far as two shallow fascists can have, in which case it would be more earnest. However, she could be using him for some other purpose. Either way, Dedra would look on Syril's mom as a nuisance. And that actor who plays the mom is good at coming off as an unstable, manipulative, oversharing individual. After how I saw her portray a character who mistreats Emma Stone's in Poor Things, I was like, "Oh, no. This is terrible."

As to Syril himself, he is a true believer in the Empire. As we saw at his workplace, he tries 110%, much to everyone's irritation. Ha ha. I don't think Dedra quite believes in the Empire that much. She believes in it enough to try to be successful and to maintain order, but I don't think she adores it as much as he does. Heh. Anyway, it's interesting how Dedra doesn't want the Ghorman mission. She'd rather find Cassian. So, that's an interesting wrinkle.