A critical analysis of David Filoni's contributions to the SW canon

That's not a verbose post. I suspect that you know what I meant.

 

Actually, I don't. I am a literal person.

 

I've not read enough Stackpole to know if that's the case (part of one Rogue Squadron book I think? Not my own copy anyway) so I guess it's possible but not an example it would be fair for me to make. And the argument I am making is not that it's okay for Filoni to do it (and only Filoni) but that having favourites who get pushed is a noticeable trend amongst even admired and mostly respected writers of Star Wars material, it happens a whole lot and as such singling Filoni out is a bit unfair. It's a weakness he's got but it's a general EU problem, not an exclusive-to-animated-SW problem, and most certainly not really a fair criterion to single any writer out on given how widespread it is.

 

I think it is interesting the way people see Ahsoka. Maybe it is because going into Clone Wars, I was expecting the worst in terms of her being the darling character, but ended up not feeling that way at all.

 

I don't like her over all but I do commend her boldness in leaving the Jedi.

 

Fair enough I guess. The line I would draw though is the apparently wide belief that Filoni's favouritism (which is both obvious and frequently tiresome I admit) is or somehow will in the future impact on Star Wars EU as a whole, when I see no evidence this is true. The only executive storytelling power he has is very specifically two animated series. And by all means he SHOULD be criticised for some of those decisions in those shows. I am not even a particular Ahsoka fan myself, she is tolerable in small doses but not a personal favourite.

But those who are saying that he is a malign influence on Star Wars EU AS A WHOLE (and this is open to any taker)... some evidence please, because I don't see it. Evidence that he has had any kind of widespread influence of any kind over material not under his direct control. Evidence that Plo Koon and Ahsoka Tahno are frequently the heroes of other authors' stories at the expense of characters expressly ignored in their favour due to Filoni's influence not that one author's choice. Because until I see it, criticism of his work as a producer is perfectly valid, criticism of his influence over anything else is extrapolation and exaggeration at best.

 

I will say that I wish the Barriss thing was better developed. That isn't to say that it made me not enjoy the story arc, but I just would have liked to have seen more since they went in that direction. I don't think it was completely out of character because the sense I always got from Barriss is that was plausible for her come to the conclusions that she did. Because I guessed she was the one behind everything in the first episode of the arc, I also guessed her motivations.

What would have been good if the show hadn't been cancelled, is if they did an episode about Barriss in Season 6 that chronologically took place before the events at the end of Season 5.

 

I'm in the same boat as you about Barriss.

 

It's also a side effect of the genre, which is why so many authors and creators in Star Wars suffer from the supposed and dreaded Pet Character Syndrome (PCS). Star Wars is about larger than life characters. They tend to be luckier, faster, stronger, smarter, luckier and overall better than most everyone else in the galaxy. Oh...and rules and regulations typically don't apply to them either.

In any other genre, Luke easily could have been seen as another outbreak of PCS. Really, he's the farm boy with a destiny, who can:
1) infiltrate a fortress full of plasteel-armored space Nazis
2) save the Princess
3) escape from a fortress filled with plasteel-armored space Nazis
4) qualify for and competently a fly star fighter he's never even seen (Let alone trained on) (Seriously, did he even have time to read the owner's manual?)
5) ...but no... it's okay, because he's the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim Territories, so we're going to just give him the fighter anyway.
6) ...even though there were qualified pilots available who could have flown instead, they still gave it to the kid so that he could...
7) blow up the most expensive military industrial boondoggle in history by using his "mind power".
...in about two hours of worth of movie.

Luke was a pet character from the beginning, and it never once bothered me. The thing that saved Luke from true PCS-status was that he had only three movies worth of characterization, and then was written about by multiple authors who had their own pet characters themselves.

If Filoni wants to have a pet character that can do pirouettes through the air and decapitate four Mandalorians at once, I'm cool with that too. I think it's fun.

Frankly, if it were up to me, TCW would have been mostly about Hondo and his Lizard Monkey kidnapping Sith lords for ransom, because that stuff never gets old. Maybe I'd bring Ahsoka in around Season 5 to become Hondo's trusted second-in-command after the Lizard Monkey heroically sacrifices himself for his captain.

Spoiler: Bonus Round

Stackpole's problem wasn't really the pet characters. It was that his villains were always incompetent, insane asylum escapees. "Mad" Max Liao, Romano Liao, Director Isard...etc.

Oh, and the overuse of the term "cerulean beam". Battletech fans know what I'm talking about.

 

Most of that post I don't agree with but it is funny.

 

Octavian Dibar

Man, I wish I could like that post more than once.

 

My definition of "pet character" is "a character who's story retcons away an existing character's importance." For example, I consider Vitiate in TOR to be a pet character because his story retcons Palpatine into a fanboy who's accomplishments were already accomplished by someone else.

 

Umm, I'm... sorry?

But you know, I do make use of double-spacing. That, and consider, how long would a couple of paragraphs really look on the printed page?

But I am happy to answer questions (even if things might get a little "long").

Well, I did a little checking and it seems the answer is... unclear.

I was actually recalling this article: http://lightsaberrattling.com/binding-the-galaxy-together-a-look-at-the-lucasfilm-story-group/

Which I remembered as having confirmed Filoni as a member of the group. However, it in fact only names Filoni as a likely member. So, that's on me.

However, as David himself points out, he works not only on the same floor with the rest of Lucasfilm now, but actually in close conjunction with Lucasfilm President Kathleen Kennedy, the directors of the new films and the LSG:

"It’s different than it was before in that when we worked with George, we were all at Skywalker Ranch. The animation division was almost separate within Lucasfilm. But Kathy [Kennedy, President of Lucasfilm] has brought us down to the Presidio now, so we work right where ILM is and we’re right where all the Star Wars films are gonna be made. We’re all on the same floor. And, you know, I think that gives a better community now. You know, it’s kind of like without George, we’re all banding together. Lucasfilm Story Group, Kathy Kennedy, the directors of all the new films, we all get together and talk about Star Wars and what’s gonna be best for it. "

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-rebels-interview-dave-filoni/

It's also worth mentioning that according to Pablo Hidalgo and Leland Chee (confirmed members of the LSG), it's the writers and directors (like Filoni) who are the ones proposing the ideas. Ideas which (again, per Hidalgo and Chee) are almost universally approved as new canon:


"Nothing is canon until they say it is, but they will rarely say "No" to anything."


"While the term “Story Group” may make it sound like they are dictating the story, that’s not usually the case. In most cases, authors or filmmakers who are hired to work on Star Wars properties, are given the oppurtunity to come up with their own stories and ideas. While doing that, they work closely with the Story Group to make sure the stories are authentically Star Wars (for example, Darth Vader doesn’t dance or something)"

http://www.slashfilm.com/lucasfilm-story-group-star-wars-canon/


All of which actually supports the spirit of my message: that Dave Filoni (whether a literal member of the LSG, or just working closely with them) is very much one of the chosen few with the opportunity to shape new Star Wars canon.

That's the distinction I was trying to stress.

I mentioned that I felt Filoni's influence extended to the latest canon novel, Lords of the Sith.

Again, not in any radical way, mind. But in my opinion, Filoni's influence was felt there.



Which was only meant to illustrate my point that Filoni's input is considered in matters beyond Rebels, alone.

And, it's not something I'm imagining. Lucasfilm admits that it's a collaborative process:

"There's a story group at Lucasfilm and there is a real communication between all the different stories," Kinberg [of Filoni's Rebels] said 'We talk with the 7, 8 & 9 filmmakers, as well as the stand-alone filmmakers. We're all collaborating together on a huge story that each of us tells a chapter of."

http://collider.com/star-wars-rebels-season-2-story-details-from-simon-kinberg-and-dave-filoni/

And in spite of how some may read my message, I fully think this concerted push for collaboration is a good thing. I applaud Lucasfilm's direction. I think it should yield positive results.

EDIT: Forgot to add one of the reference links.

 

Him not being a confirmed member aside, all of the directors and writers (from what I understand based on his interviews, and I think Kathleen Kennedy mentioned it once) work closely with LSG. That includes JJ Abrams (TFA), will include Gareth Edwards (Rogue One), whoever replaces Trank for the second anthology film, and Rian Johnson (Episode VIII). All of them will shape Star Wars canon to varying degrees through the stories they tell. This should be expected. In fact, the change in the shape of canon can probably be traced back to the very start of TCW when Lucas decided to go ahead with the project.

So I guess what I am not getting is why Filoni working is such a concerning thing, at least any more so than any of the other new directors or writers.

I haven't read Lords of the Sith (and honestly I probably won't), so I'm not familiar in what way it may appear that he does have input. Thanks for the answer though. I know I've mentioned it many times on this forum, but the collaborative process Star Wars seems to be following a similar style to that of the MCU. Which I agree completely is a good thing as it promotes having a cohesive story. Each director that works in the franchise will leave a distinct mark on the franchise.

 

I think you should watch CCU again because its pretty much implied

 

CCU? That is?

 

Crystal Crisis on Utapau

 

If TCW had continued on, we may have eventually witnessed Anakin reconciling his feelings toward Ahsoka and her decision to leave the Order.

But as it stands (based upon the only available information we have -- and may ever get), it seems pretty clear to me that Anakin still had a long, long way to go before he was able to come to grips with things (if he ever actually would, that is).


First, Anakin states outright that he thinks Ahsoka's decision to leave was "wrong." And he was clearly still pretty upset by it:

Obi-Wan: "Anakin, dwelling on Ahsoka's decision won't bring her back."
Anakin: "I miss her, okay? Is that what you wanted me to say? I still can't understand how she could have left the Order."
Obi-Wan: "It was a surprise decision to all of us."
Anakin: "It was wrong. She's a Jedi. She belongs with us. She's one of us."

-------------------------

But then Skywalker covers for his Padawan, suggesting to Obi-Wan that Tano wasn't left with many options:

Obi-Wan: "She made the decision, Anakin."
Anakin: "Well, what choice did we give her? The moment there were any suspicions about her loyalty, the Council turned their back on her."


[Of course, Kenobi's not having any of that]:

Obi-Wan: "I will grant you mistakes were made. But she chose to leave. Part of the Jedi way is not letting emotion cloud your better judgment and that's precisely what Ahsoka did. Even at her most critical moment."

-------------------------

Finally -- tellingly -- Anakin speaks of Ahsoka in terms of a disappointment and a failure:

Obi-Wan: "You can't take responsibility for Ahsoka's decision, Anakin."
Anakin: "How would you feel if I turned into a major disappointment?"
Obi-Wan: "It's not the same."
Anakin: "It's precisely the same. You took me under your wing and practically raised me. I'm your Padawan, just like Ahsoka was mine. How well would you sleep knowing I failed you?"


[And then Obi-Wan Kenobi breaks my heart]:

Obi-Wan: "Not very well, I imagine. Luckily, that isn't true. And never will be."

-------------------------

It's a really good scene.

Obi-Wan and Anakin shared in a wonderful, touching discussion; a talk which dealt with more than just Anakin's struggling with his feelings about Tano (and her decision to depart from the Jedi Order). It also did things like highlight Obi-Wan's wisdom. And it allowed us to glimpse Anakin's fear of... well, of doing just what he would do, come Episode III. Failing not only himself, but his wife, his friends, the Jedi Order and the Republic.

Maybe more than anything, it showed us the mutual sense of admiration and respect that Obi-Wan and Anakin truly shared for one another (and for their ever-evolving dynamic as Master and Apprentice).

And saddest of all, we saw Obi-Wan Kenobi's unflinching sense of trust and faith in Anakin Skywalker.

The discussion plays on themes which will eventually pay-off, not only in TCW, but Episode III and the OT, as well.

Did I say it was a "good" scene?

Scratch that, it's fantastic.

 

Hardly. The movie suffered a touch of "pilot-itis" like most such things do, but I enjoyed the heck out of it. I liked Ahsoka from the very start and loved her chemistry with a variety of characters, including Anakin and Rex.

Neither does Clone Wars or Rebels. War is a violent business. That doesn't mean that soldiers never have lighter moments even in the field.

When you look at the whole of Clone Wars you see a ton of character development for a whole bunch of characters. Yes, they may be mostly new characters, but they are working within certain restrictions concerning not screwing up existing continuity. I was especially impressed with several of the key clone characters (Rex and Fives being right at the top of the list), Ahsoka (of course), Barriss Offee, Assaj, even Hondo (God help me).

And CW has plenty of legitimately "darker" moments and stories, if not always obvious ones like Umbara and Ahsoka's final arc.

What I especially like about FIloni's directoral/producer style is his ability to get you out of "prequel-lock". He has the ability to get beyond the "we know [x] must happen" and keep you in story. Objectively, we know the Younglings from the later seasons are almost certainly doomed, but when we watch their story we forget that because they are so engaging. We know Fives isn't going to stop Order 66, but we keep rooting for him right up to the final moment nontheless.

Not this viewer, and obviously not most viewers, or it wouldn't have worked.

Hardly "random". I've yet to see any miscues from Kiner. Yes, he does occasionally repurpose a cue (like Leia's theme for the Wookies in the pilot), but it's never done in a way that violates the emotional tone of the cue, and he's getting better at expanding the range as episodes pass.

Apparently you need to look up "lietmotif". Also the works of Howard Shore (LOTR).

See above.

No, he's developing where he has room to develop. Since the "major" characters have set fates, it falls on the "new" characters (as in outside-the-films characters) to carry the story development load.

And I'm fine with that. Star Wars is NOT just the story of the Skywalkers, or Han, or Yoda, etc. It's a big universe, and I find the non-movie characters and minor=but-developed movie characters whose fates are not know in the films to be far more interesting than Vader/Han/et al.

So? It works well enough. I'm more interested in seeing where Ezra goes than hating on him for an allegedly borrowed origin.

Because it's not, maybe? I like Sabine. She's not a surly psuedo-Klingon like Death Watch/the Fetts/etc. She's also not a snobby, somewhat pretentious and self-righteous PITA like the "New Mandalorians".

If anything, Rebels Vader looks more menacing. The proportion changes imbue his faceplate with an almost satanic hate.

In your opinion.

 

Pretty much all of this is subjective. The haughty tone isn't likely to win you any points.

 

The New Mandalorians are (as I said above) a bit snobbish, pretentious, and PITAs. I do see where the writers were going with them, however, drawing parallels with post-WW II Germans who pretty much threw off their more militaristic culture because of the devastation it caused. And then over-compensated by becoming more or less unwilling to take any sort of strong stand until backed into a corner with no other option.

Can't make up my mind. The explanation for his survival stretches credibility right up to the last strand before breaking point, but the result is so entertaining I just manage to hold on to it.

No opinion.

Not having read the EU Piell, I liked his use in the Citadel story.

Liked her face/heel turn. Adds a layer of complexity to the Jedi picture. I do wish it had been played out over a longer arc though.

Would much prefer Korriban, but not going to kick up too much of a fuss...still recognizable as the same planet.

Loved it. Opened up the SW universe to see different Force traditions.

Never bought the idea that the TU, TF, et al were "neutral" at all. That was just "fig leafing" on their part, and everyone seemed to know it. If you mean the Separatist Senate, didn't see enough of them, but basically they were the "useful idiots" to the TU/TF/BC/et al cabal.