"A Prophecy that Misread Could Have Been"

Well that seems to be the conflict. Anakin wants to be Master of the Universe, even as he desires to crawl back into the womb.

The tragedy of Vader is that he ain't no Master, and his armor ain't no womb.

 

I have seen several Lucas quotes on this topic; I'm not sure about the sources, but I think they're legitimate quotes. The second one might be from the ROTJ commentary.

The feature entitled "The Chosen One" on the 2004 OT DVD set also addresses this.

 

Thanks for those quotes! They ring true as Lucas' own words, and coincidentally bear on several threads current around these boards.

 

Contrary to what Yoda or Mace thinks, the prophecy has NOT been misread.

They're just on the verge of giving up on the prophecy since Anakin is becoming more disobediant and self-centered, behaving like a spoiled brat, and is devoting more of his loyalty to Palpatine instead of the Jedi. That upsets the Jedi because they feel that the Chosen One isn't supposed to be acting the way Anakin does which is why they don't trust nor support him. They don't realise until its too late that they're doing exactly what PalpSidious wants them to do which is to refuse Anakin at every turn so that he could influence him into turning traitor against the Jedi.

 

I agree; the prophecy was totally correct. However, the Jedi took it the wrong way, and that ended up being an integral part of their eventual downfall.

 

No they didn't. Anakin's fall was a detour from the prophecy, not a part of it.

 

Actually, Anakin's fall was an integral part of the prophecy. Through his fall, the old Jedi Order, which had blinded itself with its rigidity and which had become detatched from the will of the Force, could be replaced with the more liberal-minded new Jedi Order.

That's partially why Order 66 and the Operation: Knightfall are so poignant; they're terrible, painful, heinous acts, but they had to happen.

The creation of a Jedi Order that could feel the nuances of the Force (yes, sacrificing a bit of their stability) and that served only the Force was Qui-Gon's dream...and Anakin's destiny. [face_alien_1]

 

It would better if the 25,000 Yr Old Jedi Order was replaced by an order that didn't end up possibly breaking in half (the Imperial Knights), and by the looks of it, practically gone with a returned Sith 100 years later (Legacy of the Force)

Thats why I'd rather they left the Sith out of post ROTJ EU, it makes Anakins Sacrifice seem nto so important - he destroys the Sith to bring balance in the Force, so 30 years later...We're Back - but thats against the point

I can see, however what you mean about a improved version, if you discount EU, though.

Daft-Vader

 

The Jedi weren't the source of all the trouble in the galaxy.

 

There's no proof of that. It's just commonly accepted fanon. All canon states is that Anakin had to destroy the Sith to bring balance.

 

Does anybody know the official prophecy? What the heck does even say besides what we know "bring balance to the force".

Yoda should have said interpret, not misread. Misspoke, Yoda did.

 

Destroy the Sith AND bring balance to the Force.

OR

Destroy the Sith TO bring balance to the Force.

Can anyone confirm which? It's of enormous significance, particularly when considering the fall of the Jedi.

It's purely interprative, but to me, Qui-Gon's role makes it clear that the Jedi were intended to be out of synch with the Force. He was a renegade, at odds with the prevailing wisdom and yet he ended up teaching the former master, Yoda. It's a pretty clear message I'd say.

 

The only really specific one we get in the films is Obi-Wan's

"You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave in it darkness!"

Lucas however has said things like

"Which brings us to films 4, 5 and 6, where Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."
--George Lucas

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says(regarding the end of Anakin's story). "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

I agree that they were out of sync to some extent, but I'm not sure that necessitates their destruction. It would simply take reformation, which I imagine Mace and Yoda would have been willing to accept without the destruction of their Order once they learned that Palpatine was in control of the Republic.

 

The emphasis on "kill the Emperor" in the Lucas quotes seems pretty strong to me.

 

It does to me too.

 

I disagree with you here.

Anakin had the chance to destroy the Sith twice, without ever effecting the Jedi order. Firstly when he first learned about Palpatine being a Sith Lord, and then when he saw Mace Windu Fighting Palpatine. the reason the Jedi Order fell, was because Anakin failed to follow the true ways of the Jedi - he killed Mace Becasue he was selfish, not about "A Fair trial", but because Anakin needed him to save Padme. A true Jedi would do things for the good of Society, for the good of one self.

And, as said before, the pld Jedi Order last a Lot longer then the New Jedi Order, although fasir enough, that is an EU problem, and probably wasn't what Lucas had in mind when he finalised the saga.

Also, as Master-Starkiller said, the Jedi Order does not need to be wiped out to be changed. Yoda knew that the order was becoming arrogant. I'm sure after the revelation of the Sith, and wonce the turmoil of the Clone Wars had been dealt with, the Jedi Council, maybe along with Qui-Gon, would have thought done and see how the Jedi Order could be improved.

Daft-Vader

 

^^^

Well said!

Remember, this is the same Jedi order that allowed itself to be blinded by a secretive Sith order, the same Jedi whose powers were weakened by the Sith to the point that they collectively could not sniff out a Sith Lord serving in their midst as the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic.

So diminished had Jedi powers become that they . . .
- could not see the dark side clouding their abilities for many, many years
- did not believe Jinn when he reported being attacked by a Sith warrior, because THEY did not sense the return of the Sith
- did not accept Anakin as the Chosen One for reasons mostly focused upon their own arrogance (with some possessiveness tendencies by Anakin thrown in as justification)
- agreed to serve as military generals (which even Windu admits the order was not trained or prepared to do), taking orders from the 'Sith Lord in disguise' during a bloody civil war

Had the order survived after ROTS, and not significantly changed its ways, it would inevitably remain vulnerable to a fate similar to that depicted in ROTS.

So, in a sense, the order required some type of radical deconstructing in order to face the challenges facing the Galactic Repulic/Empire. Lucas chose to depict this 'deconstruction' via the Order 66 purge.

The two most noble and accomplished Jedi of the Old Republic thus train Anakin's son, progenitor of a new order, one that is all too conscious of the constant threat presented by the nefarious, in-Sidious, corrupting powers of the dark side.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Mace and Ki-Adi dismissed it, Yoda didn't.

It had nothing to do with their arrogance and everything to do with Anakin's attatchments and fear(which of course was caused by his attatchments.)

Which was the right decision given the limited information the Jedi had. It's not wrong for the Jedi to fight in a war as Luke demonstrates in the Original Trilogy. Once the Jedi learn Palpatine's true identity, they move to destroy him as they should.

 

I agree that they didn't need to be destroyed. IMO there did need to be significant deconstruction and reconstruction in order to bring the Jedi back into balance with the Force, including the Living Force.

On the point of Anakin's training, once again, I don't believe the Jedi were in tune with the will of the Force. When he came before them their first reaction was to look to the future (much fear in you etc) and retreat to the past (the Code will not allow it) This is where Qui Gon's philosophy diverged from the mainstream Jedi one at the time. Assess the past and future by all means, but in the final analysis, don't ignore that which the Force puts right under your nose in the present.

As to the Jedi's military role, I think I've banged on about that enough already!

 

Yes!!!

I consider it an honor to have our newest mod, Master Skywalker, blast my latest post!

Of course, M.S.'s observations, while powerful and righteous, seem to conflict mightily with those the 'maker' made in his 'E Behind the Scene - Revenge of the Sith' comments back in '05, which stated that corruption and arrogance on the part of the jedi order ultimately lead to the order's downfall.

This very subject was discussed at length in an officially "on-hiatus" THREAD of mine from early '07). Perhaps it is time to awaken this sleeping giant?

I'll be good! Promise!

 

But Yoda wasn't very supportive when Qui-Gon made that announcement. All he said was "Hard to see, the Dark Side is" but that didn't mean he was sure if the Sith are back.

It also had to do with their ignorance because they didn't believe if Anakin was the Chosen One nor if the Force needed balancing until Qui-Gon was killed.

And they all ended up dead in the process so they were screwed no mattered if they served in the Clone Wars or not.

 

The exact prophecy, according to Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, is,

A Jedi will come
and destroy the Sith,
bringing balance to the Force.


If this is the prophecy then the most imideate question to me is why did the pre-TPM jedi pay this any mind? To them the Sith were long since dead and so this prophecy would either already have come to pass or it was simply wrong, either way it would not be something they spend any time on.
Also this says nothing of vergence in the Force, Midis or that the chosen one would have no father. All this says is that some jedi will kill the sith and this could apply to any jedi.

Also if the killing of the sith is all that matters then a humble clone trooper could have balanced the Force, if he had aimed alittle differently in the battle at the start of RotS then the ship with Palpatine on would have been destroyed and all Sith would be dead.

Regards
Nordom

 

Also, what I am intrigued to know is, how was the prophecy created in the first place. Because is it just some Jedi's Vision for the (extreme) future, because, as Yoda said, always in motion is the future?

 

It's my lot in life.

It's not my fault Lucas failed to fully implement his intention. I mean, even the games have done a better job depicting a corrupt Jedi Order(see: KOTOR II.)

Maybe. I'll have to take another look at the thread.

Yoda had no reason to be completely sure either way. Sith aren't the only Dark Siders trained in the Jedi arts.

I'll definitely agree with that.

Of course they were. However, that has no bearing on the ethical nature of their decisions.