Academy Awards Nomination and Reaction

7) 20 years from now, the LOTR movies will be remembered as classics, one of the great trilogies, among The Godfather, Indy, and the Star Wars OT. The prequel trilogy will be forgotten, a footnote in film history, if even that. How you feel about either makes no difference.

Wow, you know this already? Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours, so I can see my future as well?

 

If your opinions don't count then why bother posting an unbelievably, long-winded explanation of ILM's downfall in the film industry?

I said that my opinions don't count when looking at how films will be viewed in the future.

And ILM never fell. Others just rose to their level.

 

Others just rose to their level.

Now that I agree with.

 

Wow, you know this already? Can I borrow that crystal ball of yours, so I can see my future as well?

You're right, I'm sorry. How could I possibly take a trilogy that is critically and publicly beloved and say that it will be remembered in a better light than a trilogy that has turned out to be a critical and public disappointment in every sense of the word? Silly me.

 

DI, it's posts like your last couple that lead threads to get locked. Passing your opinion off as hard fact is not how you do things here.

And I'm sure dozens of filmmakers would love to have "disappointments" to the tune of $743 million in domestic box office take. Any two films in a series that make that much can only be called overwhelming public successes.

 

And, your long-winded post also forgot to mention the fact that no 5th installment of any film will gross $3 million plus at the box office. At least not in my life time.

 

DI, it's posts like your last couple that lead threads to get locked. Passing your opinion off as hard fact is not how you do things here.

Considering that I specifically stated that my personal opinions don't count for much in the scheme of things, I doubt my posts are in any danger. I haven't passed off my opinion as fact. I'm simply not wearing the rose-colored glasses you seem to be.

And I'm sure dozens of filmmakers would love to have "disappointments" to the tune of $743 million in domestic box office take. Any two films in a series that make that much can only be called overwhelming public successes.

Compared to the grosses that the previous trilogy posted, the prequels are disappointments. Especially AOTC. People love to throw around the fact that normal sequels don't perform nearly as well as their predecessors did. And I ask, since when has Star Wars behaved like a normal series?

 

Some good points, but I disagree that ILM has been dethroned. They still remain the benchmark for quality F/X and any effects house will admit that ILM is still the model effects house in Hollywood. The competition is a lot stiffer now that a gazillion effects houese have creeped up in the 90's. They're not as dominant as before, but they're still tops in the industry and I'm not just talking about Star Wars, but they've left their mark on several films this past year, more so than any other effects company. You can't compete with quality and quantity.

 

Considering that I specifically stated that my personal opinions don't count for much in the scheme of things, I doubt my posts are in any danger. I haven't passed off my opinion as fact.

Yes you have. Several times.

Compared to the grosses that the previous trilogy posted, the prequels are disappointments.

Using that "logic," LOTR is a disappointment too.

Especially AOTC.

How? It's still racking up good numbers at IMAX almost a year after its theatrical release, and months after its release on DVD.

People love to throw around the fact that normal sequels don't perform nearly as well as their predecessors did. And I ask, since when has Star Wars behaved like a normal series?

Since ever. ESB and ROTJ both had lower grosses than ANH.

Care to offer proof that the PT is a critical (since when has SW been appreciated by critics?) mand public disappointment "in every sense of the word"?

 

Compared to the grosses that the previous trilogy posted, the prequels are disappointments.

You may want to get your facts straight.

ANH is the #1 grossing movie of the series as we all know.

TPM is #2 in the series and AOTC, during its IMAX run, passed ROJ on the all-time list. ESB is last in the series in total box office take. And yes, I know about the "adjusted for inflation" old bit.

But anyway, let's not derail this topic with box office talk.

The entire OT won the Oscar for visual effects in their respective years. Neither of the PT has yet.

Is this a product of higher competition for SW and ILM, or something else?

 

seasider: Certainly they're tops when it comes to pairing quality and quantity. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that there are other effects houses that have met their quality level many times, and upstaged them on comparative films (an example of that being the LOTR and PT effects comparisons).

Shelley: How is LOTR a disappointment? Box office-wise, both have performed incredibly, with TTT surpassing FOTR. Critically, they're almost universally liked or loved.

Yes, AOTC is pulling up $25,000 IMAX weekends. Very nice. But it doesn't change the fact that AOTC was a huge drop-off from TPM. It is the lowest grossing Star Wars film of all, and the only one not to come out on top of the box office charts in its year.

Yes, ESB and ROTJ both grossed lower than ANH. But look at how they fared in comparison to other movies released in their respective years. They blew away their nearest competitors. AOTC was beaten by not even one, but 3 films this year.

royalguard: "Old bit"? Yes, let's compare box office grosses of films that came out when ticket prices were a fraction of what they are now to current releases. That's real accurate, isn't it?

And to answer your question, it's a product of higher competition. I happen to believe that TPM got shafted, but TTT deserved it over AOTC.

 

Shelley: How is LOTR a disappointment? Box office-wise, both have performed incredibly, with TTT surpassing FOTR. Critically, they're almost universally liked or loved.

Read my post. I said, using your logic (comparing the PT to the OT in terms of grosses), LOTR is a disappointment as well. As for critically, even you must know that the critics have always slammed SW.

Yes, AOTC is pulling up $25,000 IMAX weekends. Very nice. But it doesn't change the fact that AOTC was a huge drop-off from TPM.

And TPM was the first SW movie in 16 years, plus it was hugely hyped. Had AOTC been as hyped as TPM, and if Lucas hadn't insisted on limiting the number of theaters/screens it played on, its grosses probably would've been way higher.

It is the lowest grossing Star Wars film of all, and the only one not to come out on top of the box office charts in its year.

BIG DEAL. That it is still pulling in good numbers at IMAX shows that it is more well-liked than you want to admit, and despite the media ripping it a new one and gloating about how it "flopped."

Yes, ESB and ROTJ both grossed lower than ANH. But look at how they fared in comparison to other movies released in their respective years.

What other movies released in their respective years? Can you name any movie that was as hyped as either Spiderman or TTT?

They blew away their nearest competitors.

Which were...?

AOTC was beaten by not even one, but 3 films this year.

Two. TTT was released with almost no competition. Spiderman was far more hyped than AOTC, plus it was a "hero saves New York" movie in post-Sept. 11th times.

royalguard: "Old bit"? Yes, let's compare box office grosses of films that came out when ticket prices were a fraction of what they are now to current releases. That's real accurate, isn't it?

It's as accurate as when you're saying that LOTR is beating out the PT. FOTR grossed far less than TPM. TTT's grosses aren't all that much higher than AOTC's. Neither of them came close to matching the OT's grosses. So why are they smash hits and the movies of the PT failures?

And while you're at it, factor in the vastly higher array of entertainment options now, plus the bootlegs/downloads, plus the fact that movies come out on DVD in 3 months anyway.

And to answer your question, it's a product of higher competition. I happen to believe that TPM got shafted, but TTT deserved it over AOTC.

Why? Because it looked more "real," being grainier and more amateurish?

 

it doesn't matter any more, AOTC will be remembered has one the best love and war movies of all time!!!

 

I personally believe that TTT should have won best picture.

However, AOTC should have won its VFX award, although TTT VFX were very good.

I also think AOTC should have been nominated for Sound, Sound Effects Editing, Costume Design and Production Design. You really have to question whether the voters really know what they are looking for at all.

To wonder why Jackson was left out of the Best Director category is a complete and utter mystery to me. If it has got anything to do with filming the films at the same time then they should be ashamed of themselves.

The fact that Scorsese never won Best Director was pretty difficult to watch. Polanski is not a bad director, but I really feel the voters have felt that a story like The Pianist needs awards and if they were going to give most to Chicago then they better give some to this film. I thought art was supposed to transcend life. For the voters, it appears this is not the case.

The fact is that in 20 years time, AOTC, TTT (and to a smaller extent) GONY will still be being watched by millions of people over the world. Chicago will not.

 

Read my post. I said, using your logic (comparing the PT to the OT in terms of grosses), LOTR is a disappointment as well. As for critically, even you must know that the critics have always slammed SW.

Fanboy Fallacy #1. Star Wars was not critically reviled upon release. Neither was Empire. Jedi was more criticized than the others, but not even close to the degree of TPM or AOTC.

And TPM was the first SW movie in 16 years, plus it was hugely hyped. Had AOTC been as hyped as TPM, and if Lucas hadn't insisted on limiting the number of theaters/screens it played on, its grosses probably would've been way higher.

Conveniently omits the possibility that people were turned off by TPM, and that this could very easily be one of the factors of its lower gross. I ask again, since when has Star Wars been a normal movie series?

BIG DEAL. That it is still pulling in good numbers at IMAX shows that it is more well-liked than you want to admit, and despite the media ripping it a new one and gloating about how it "flopped."

It didn't flop. It was a disappointment, but it did not flop, not at the box office at least. The fact that it is still pulling in numbers at IMAX reflects nothing. Choices at IMAX theaters are severely limited.

What other movies released in their respective years? Can you name any movie that was as hyped as either Spiderman or TTT?

ESB was released in the same year as Superman II, which performed wonderfully and had an established brand-name. ESB still handily trounced it.

ANH was released in the same year as Close Encounters and Saturday Night Fever. Both performed wonderfully. ANH destroyed them both.

Two. TTT was released with almost no competition. Spiderman was far more hyped than AOTC, plus it was a "hero saves New York" movie in post-Sept. 11th times.

Three. Chamber of Secrets, Two Towers, Spiderman. Oh, and the 9/11 argument is utter BS. Moviegoers worldwide were so affected by it?

And while you're at it, factor in the vastly higher array of entertainment options now, plus the bootleg/download factor, plus the fact that movies come out on DVD in 3 months anyway.

AOTC didn't come out on DVD until 6 months after its release. And bootlegging was just as big in 1999, yet TPM still won the year.

Why? Because it looked more "real," being grainier and more amateurish?

No, because of Gollum. For the first time, an emotionally moving, convincing performance from a CG character that didn't call attention to the fact that he was CG. Take him out of the equation, and the two films are equal.

 

This thread is to discuss the Academy Awards, not to discuss whether or not AOTC is a flop.

 

"TTT was released with almost no competition."

Except for Chamber of Secrets, Gangs of New York, Die Another Day, Star Trek Nemesis, Catch Me if you Can, Solaris and Treasure Planet, to name just a few of the films that made the last holiday season the most crowded in recent memory. Many of these films came away with over $100 million, and many more were choked out of business, but even in a market as crowded as this, TTT came out on top by leaps and bounds.

 

OH FOR CHRIST's SAKE!!!

TTT had great effects, don't ever knock it down. WETA is great. ILM IS GREAT ALSO!!!

I personally think that AOTC deserved it. But WETA I believe is up there with ILM now. ILM is better in some areas, (probably more I guess) and WETA is better in others.

MASSIVE is just so friggin cool. ILM can do large scale battles. But the ones that they have done haven't looked as neat.

ILM has way better clothing and skin skills. Lukcy for WETA, Gollum didn't wear much clothing. Yoda's clothes are perfect!

IT'd good to have competition.

ILM hasn't been challenged in the same areas as WETA has. ILM could probably come out looking better. But Star War's CGI charectors dont' need to really act. So the fact that Gollum acts doesn't make the effects anybetter.

LIke I said before, LOTR won last year, Spiderman doesnt' compare, so Give it to AOTC.

And PJ wasn't nominated? Everyother director for best picture was.......

And is PJ for or against the war, I take he's against.

And a brilliant statement by some one here. Moore just bashed, but didn't actually ask for peace.

 

Darth_Insiduous: "Star Wars was not critically reviled upon release"

Neither was AOTC. AOTC has certainly taken its fair share of both praise and stick, however, it has mainly been labelled a sucess and a worthy addition to the Star Wars saga through polls, surveys and critics over the world.

Also, to be perfectly honest, many American critics have completely lost it and no wonder Lucas does not care what they think. I have seen absolutley tons of severely unjustified criticisms upon The Two Towers by American critics that would just make you laugh all day.

Also, Star Wars did actually take its fare share of stick in 1977, believe it or not. I have read some great articles that showed you some 'established' US and British critics of the time taking shots at Star Wars in major publications.

Anyway, to be fair, Star Wars has become somewhat of a target for critics since the release of TPM, not just in America but elsewhere as well and much of this negativity has been created by the US media for several reasons.

Darth_Insiduous: "And bootlegging was just as big in 1999"

I think you will find that this is complete nonsense. On a worldwide scale, the impact of DVD pirating has shown a much greater impact on the film industry over the last two years.

"an emotionally moving, convincing performance from a CG character that didn't call attention to the fact that he was CG"

I agree that Gollum was well done. I would say TTT is without doubt the better of the two films. However, I seem to remember the impact of Yoda's fight scene to have a greater impact on cinema audiences than Gollum's internal conversation scene. If you want to be more realistic, you should say that both CG characters were a great success. If Yoda had been a failure in the sense you have made out, he would not have recieved the audience reactions that he sparked later in the film.

 

"who rigs every Oscar night? - we do!"

(excerpts taken from the Stonecutters theme song)

 

Neither was AOTC. AOTC has certainly taken its fair share of both praise and stick, however, it has mainly been labelled a sucess and a worthy addition to the Star Wars saga through polls, surveys and critics over the world.

Also, to be perfectly honest, many American critics have completely lost it and no wonder Lucas does not care what they think. I have seen absolutley tons of severely unjustified criticisms upon The Two Towers by American critics that would just make you laugh all day.

Also, Star Wars did actually take its fare share of stick in 1977, believe it or not. I have read some great articles that showed you some 'established' US and British critics of the time taking shots at Star Wars in major publications.

Anyway, to be fair, Star Wars has become somewhat of a target for critics since the release of TPM, not just in America but elsewhere as well and much of this negativity has been created by the US media for several reasons.

AOTC received okay reviews. I think it's at 63% on Rotten Tomatoes, which isn't bad, but not particularly good either. Just okay.

The reviews for ANH were almost all positive on its release. I know that some major critics, Pauline Kael among them I believe, did slam it, but overall it was very well recieved. Better than either TPM or AOTC has been.

I think you will find that this is complete nonsense. On a worldwide scale, the impact of DVD pirating has shown a much greater impact on the film industry over the last two years.

A much greater impact? Then why was this summer the most profitable summer at the box office in decades? Why did we have not one, not two, but three films cross the $300 million barrier in the US? Why did both TTT and Spiderman break into the top 10 in the US and worldwide?

Pirating has shifted to mostly DVD, as opposed to virutally all VHS back in 1999. That's about the only major difference. Alarmists like Rick McCallum can complain all they want, but like the music industry, the movie industry has not been greatly affected by pirating.

I agree that Gollum was well done. I would say TTT is without doubt the better of the two films. However, I seem to remember the impact of Yoda's fight scene to have a greater impact on cinema audiences than Gollum's internal conversation scene. If you want to be more realistic, you should say that both CG characters were a great success. If Yoda had been a failure in the sense you have made out, he would not have recieved the audience reactions that he sparked later in the film.

Quality isn't measured by the amount of times the audience let's out "woos". I didn't hear anyone in the theater screaming when Liam Neeson did his end lament in Schindler's List. Does this make it a worse scene than Yoda vs. Dooku? I enjoyed Yoda's fight scene. Gollum's split-personality scenes moved me.

 

Again, I remind everyone that this is a thread for your reactions of how AOTC did at the Academy Awards, not an AOTC vs. TTT thread.

 

"I agree Gollum isn't the only reason. But I don't see why Helm's Deep was better than the Battle of Geonosis. Both are the same size and scope, but in TTT everything was hidden in darkness. In AOTC everything was in broad daylight."

and even though the battle in AOTC was in broad daylight, people still complain that they dont know what the heck was going on.

 

and even though the battle in AOTC was in broad daylight, people still complain that they dont know what the heck was going on

I don't wish to jump into this TTT (vs) AOTC argument, but for the life of me, I have never heard of that complaint before.

I personally don't see what's so complicated. We have Clonetroopers on one side and droids on the other side. Both are shooting at each other. Where's the complication in that?


Now, referring back to the oscars, I wonder if GL or the ILM folks felt dissapointed in not winning. Obviously losing would be a slight dissapointment, but I wonder if they were severly dissapointed. The same goes for the guys who worked on Spider-Man. A lot of hard work went into those two films.

 

Yes, ESB and ROTJ both grossed lower than ANH. But look at how they fared in comparison to other movies released in their respective years. They blew away their nearest competitors. AOTC was beaten by not even one, but 3 films this year.

And what exactly were their nearest competitors? Anyone? Anyone? That's right, the "competition" wasn't terribly competitive to speak of.

In the same year, CLONES had to face off against the hugely hyped SPIDER-MAN, the hugely hyped THE TWO TOWERS, and the hugely hyped HARRY POTTER AND THE GENERIC SEQUELS (or whatever it was called). Three huge competitors with a large following and a massive marketing push. And even then, CLONES still managed to "limp" in with a second place finish. Not too shabby. I'm sure every director in Hollywood would give his right eye to have his "huge disappointment" clock in as the number two film of the year.

The fact that it is still pulling in numbers at IMAX reflects nothing.

Why, because you say so?