After the PT. Do you see Vader as Villain or the Victim?

Listening to Lucas's interview on the Sith DVD, he says how when you watch the OT now you realise that the person you thought was the villian is actually the victim. Do you agree with this, or do you still see Vader as the villain?

Even though he was somewhat tricked into joining the Darkside, he did it through greed, fear and anger. Selfish reasons to undertake a mass extermination of his fellow Jedi. So from that point of view he is a Villain.

But then again, he was a good person who was purpously currupted through lies and deceit to become Evil. He was (at first anyway) only doing what he thought was right. Only after being consumed by power did he try and reationalise his actions by lying to himself and others that what he was doing was in everyones interrests, and not just his own.

So Villain, or Victim?

 

Well, most three dimensional villains are also victims. So I would say that he's both. This is why:

He's a victim of the fact that he's taken away from his mother and put into a Jedi order that does not understand his needs or talents. They fail to give him help and comfort when he needs it.

This is taken advantage of by the real villain, Palpatine, who manipulates Anakin into what he eventually becomes: The villain of the OT.

So IMO Anakin/Vader is both. The Jedi fail him, so he becomes succeptible to the manipulations of Palpatine. Thus making him a good guy who is turned into a villain.

 

Vader is a villain.
Sure, there are sad things in his life, ones that did in turn help push him to his path.... but he made his bed and now has to lie in it.
he ALLOWED himself to be manipulated by Palpatine.
And even when he knew that Palpatine was a Sith, he joined him
And he wasn't exactly fighting Palpatine's wishes.
He CHOSE to slaughter the Jedi, chose to slaughter the Trade Federation, the younglings, etc. etc.

 

Yeah agreed, i think he is more Villain than victim. Only becasue the path he ended up on is one he chose to walk. He could have (and should have) not acted on his fears of death and allowed Padame to have the baby/s and not struggled against his dream of her dying in child birth.

I believe the story line of him having no father is very important to his eventual outcome. Not only as this adds the question "Is he the chosen one" but also becasue of his lack of father figure, he will always search for one. He thought he had found this in Obi-wan, but due to the Jedi ridged way of thinking, they cannot act as father to him. The Jedi should have seen this in his upbringing and kept Anakin away from Palpetine when suspicion arouse that he was not what he appeard to be, and not pushed Anakin into his arms.

Evil things can come from good intentions, but is an Evil person a victim if they do evil through having faced a hard life.

I'd say Sadam Housane is an evil man, but does he become a victim if we learn he grew up without a father, in a society that did'nt care for him, or that he was never loved or was abused as a child? No. If a person does evil things, this cannot be blaimed away on their experinces in the past. There are many good people out there who achive great things, yet have tollerated a cruel past or great hardship in childhood. They did not turn out evil becasue of this.

In the end it comes down to choice and for this reason, i say he's still a Villain.

 

Strilo edit: Don't bring politics into this.

 

I have to agree with Darth_Turkey, Vader is definitely not a victim of circumstance. He had a choice in how he was going to approach the problem he faced, and he ended up choosing the dark side. Luke faced the same choice and choosed the path his father did not. Granted Palpatine was closer to Anakin, but Anakin also had more training and teaching to avoid such a dangerous turn. The story does create more sympathy with Vader, but upon seeing his devious actions in episodes IV and V, it's hard to have any sort of pathos for him.

 

Good thread.

It's hard to say for me. In many respects he is the obvious victim. He was destined for greatness and ended up paying the price for making the wrong decisions in life.

His initial love for his Mother and Padme are very real things. His lust for power however turned out to be greater, which in turn proved to be his downfall.

Darth Vader before the PT was the evil villain in every sense. The character's platform was ESB where he displayed his evilness and portrayed a worthy villain. This is the Darth Vader that I always liked best. Since the PT, Vader can be viewed differently as the back story is evident and I now see Anakin Skywalker in the Vader suit.

OT Vader is evil no question, 19 odd years have gone by and as Obi-Wan said he is twisted and evil now. I do not see a victim in Darth Vader in the OT until his redemption at the end of ROTJ. I feel sorry for Anakin Skywalker to a point. I think I would be torn as a jedi destined to be the greatest and a natural feeling of being in Love. A difficult choice on any level.

To summarise:

PT Vader - Victim
OT Vader - Villain

I'm sorry I just can't look at Vader in ESB and say he is a victim. A victim of circumstance perhaps but that's it.

 

Yeah, i totally agree. He's a victim of his own emotions, but so is everyone, he just sought to change things by aquiring un-natural powers to achieve this where as other people do not have the choice or ability to do this.

 

Vader is definitely not a victim of circumstance. He had a choice in how he was going to approach the problem he faced, and he ended up choosing the dark side. Luke faced the same choice and choosed the path his father did not.

But the difference was the upbringing between the two. Anakin was plucked from his mother at an early age when he needed her the most, predisposing him to his fear of loss which brought about his downfall.As a Jedi, he was in an environment which shunned personal attachment and left him ill equiped to deal with the emotional termoil he was feeling. Luke on the other hand was able to develop healthly emotional attachments with others and was better able to resist the temptation of the dark sife.

 

I think that it was his destiny..all that happened cannot be changed...i think he is a hero...sure he did murder people he is good from his point of view...so...i think he is more a victim

 

So Villain, or Victim?

And the correct answer is : Hes a victim who is turned into a villian.

 

He is a Victim 100% as were all the Jedi, Palpatine told Anakin what he wanted to hear and in the end he lost everyone which was his greatest fear which led him to the darkside, he felt empty inside as would anyone in his situation until he realizes his son lives and then still the good emotions...he is the Ultimate Hero/Victim IMHO.

 

Vader, overall, is a victim. He had little control over the events that transformed his life placed him in awkward circumstances. If Anakin had not left Tatooine to begin with, his life might have been quite different. However, if the prophecy was to fulfill itself, his path was laid before he was even born. It was the will of the Force that compelled the Chosen One, so you can say Vader was a victim of circumstance for his whole entire life. He was never in a place or position that made him comfortable, he was always doing something he knew he shouldn't.

 

Anakin has a mind of his own. He can surely think for himself. If Palpatine was going to pat him on the back about everything he did, well. no one can stop that, but Anakin sure didn't have to listen to him. He trusted a politician that (supposedly) knew nothing about the Force, the Jedi or the Sith. Anakin turned to him, someone that had no idea about his training, or how Jedi were suppose to be.

Losing Shmi was not his fault, but everyone else? Padme, the Jedi, the Order. He helped establish that loss.

Of course he feels empty inside. He was responsible for the fall of the Jedi Order, and his wife's death. He betrayed his fellow Jedi, he failed his wife, hs children, and himself.

I'm sorry if I sound a little mean, that's not my intention at all. Also, I'm not arguing that Vader is a villain, just pointing out that he isn't entirely a victim.

 

Vader isn't much of a victim at all. As Anakin, he started out with a rough lot, but then had a lot of lucky breaks. He just didn't have very good judgement. He choice Padme and then Palpatine over the Jedi and all that came with what they stood for. Now, I don't much care for the PT Jedi, but (a) Anakin made a committment, if he wanted to break the code and have a different life, he should have left the order. (b) The Jedi, although dense vulcans, were fighting for truth and justice, but Anakin choose something different in the end.

 

I see him as both a victim and a villain.

He was manipulated by Palpatine and tricked into spending a lifetime hating himself for murdering Padme and his unborn child. He was born into slavery, he had his Mother die in his arms, and the Jedi were pretty cold towards him.

That said, you just have to look at Luke to see that many of Anakin's problems are down to himself and his oen weakness's and psychological flaws. All the way along, Luke faced the same problems as Anakin and it was the choices they both made that seperated Anakin's lutimate fate from Lukes. That shows that whilst Anakin was manipulated, he could still have made the right choices, just as his Son did.

 

After watching the PT, I still think that Vadar is partly the Villain, but more of me thinks that he is the victim. He lost everything he loved, his mom, his children(for a little while), Padme, and the gratitude of the Council and so on.

Rachel Rose

 

I know he has a mind of his own but everyone he cares about has left him and he was very unstable after cutting Mace's hand off and he had doubts like everyone in the world at some point, but i pose this question if it were you and someone offered you the chance to save your wife or someone in your family if you were to say do that person a favor i think most people would do it in a heartbeat, i know i would i dont think i would think twice about it.....I belive Anakin didnt think twice about it which is why it got so out of hand he never had time to think about what he was doing until it was too late and he lost everyone he ever cared for which left him empty and bitter inside...hence with nothing to live for he submits to being led around by the nose by Palpatine.

 

He's villain and victim. But he's also more. He still was arrogant and fell from grace, a tragic hero who knew he was making a pact with the devil.

 

Anakin was a Jedi. He had responsibilites you and I can't even come close to having. Once he made the decision to betray those responsibilites, he made a world of a difference. I, as well would jump at the thought of saving my wife (or should say husband?) from certain death, but if Anakin wasn't denying the fact that Padme was going to die a natural death, he too would have realized that saving her was impossible. How would he have done it? He bought into the lies of Palpatine, and even after Palpatine said they would find out the solution together, he carried on. He murdered the Jedi who had done absolutely nothing to him and he killed children that looked up to him and had dreams of becoming a Jedi as well. How was that in anyway helping to save Padme? He caused his own grief, he rationalized his actions and he also realized his mistakes, all in a good 20+ years.

 

Neither, honestly I see him now as a idiot, that really never thought about what his actions would lead too.
Yea he was inlove and wanted to save his wife cause he loved her so much but that's just a excuse for him being a idiot. Yea he had a hard life too growing up like a slave with a loving mom, but still more excuses for him just being a idiot. He never really learns anything till the RTOJ when the Emperor is frying his son.

 

he was a victim of lies,wars,deceit,love, and betrayal ... the man was boy a slave and didnt even know his wildest dreams were true... his power was too great to him to control.... being the choosen one .. he was said in the novel he is like a blowtorch in the force... where his aura is huge...greater than ne one.... but he hasnt learned how to focus that kind of power... were the old masters like Yoda, Sidious,Obi, and maybe Mace had inner touch with that they can do and know Anakin potential in the force and fear his moment becuase like they said in episode one the boy future is clouded and Mace said NO!..... Anakin has the power to do ne thing he wants for good or ill as long he has what he wants in life... and the other Jedi know this and fear him for no reason just because of who he is.... why must he sense that among people who are to supoose be ur comrads..... if u had that kind of power what would u do .... oh yea his wife was gonna die and leave him with 2 kids , the man wasnt gonna have that...obi wan is just the smartest jedi that ever lived.. and with the " there such as there is no luck " he outfoxed Anakin which just prove brians over brawn. a victim of a ass whooping also... obi won

 

A little bit of both. He's a victim of his own excesses and a deception. But he's also a villian in that he stays with this. But he's not the villian. He's only a villian in that he continues to embrace the Dark Side.

 

Some good points of view expressed here.

Seems as though he was a victim of circumstance (being a slave, then freed to be raised away from his familly under the strict guidelines of the Jedi for a destiny he was not fully aware of) and was then moulded and shaped by an evil influence,from a cold and calculating force to unwhittingly become a villain.

Does that description suit him best? :0)

 

He was definetly a victim after what happened to him at Mustafar.