Ahsoka Ahsoka Episode 1.05 - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Surely this must be a reason why Hera bought Jacen along though because you have force sensitives and based on Huyang's conversation with Teva, it seems it has already been known to Huyang and likely Hera that Jacen is force sensitive, so makes sense to bring him along AND for him to sense Ahsoka.

Ahsoka's ability to use force echoes was established in the very first episode (and the Jedi games too that this was an ability) and given Sabine was Ahsoka's apprentice, her familiarity makes total sense she could sense things from the map.

On the space whales point, don't forget that they showed up in episode 3 when they arrived on this planet and it was established that this was a hyperspace jump point that the map was based on and the basing on came from, you guessed it, the Purgiils. This was set up essentially over three episodes.

Contrivance? Sure but that is the force in many ways and besides, all of this was set up previously.

 

I'll be the first to say that I really had no idea that she was the young Gamora in Avengers.

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Gave it 7. I was disappointed how little "flashback" vision had to do with main story and I expected more flashbacks to be honest. It was not a bad episode but could've been so much better so easily. The trip to another galaxy in whale's mouth was a bit weird but better than using WBW for that purpose. It should've become standard way to move through places (and eras).

 

I agree with your general premise that:

1) These abilities have been established previously.

2) They did setup the Purgil previously.

I’ll also reiterate an aspect of my post there where I did say that the execution of the ideas is strong enough and magical enough to feel almost Tolkien-like and that it casts a sufficient spell. Particularly on first watch.

I still contend though that having that many amazing act 2 setbacks for the heroes all basically undone through force-related actions feels contrived in a way I hope this series can avoid moving forward.

As I said, the whole idea of force contrivances has been so much a part of Star Wars for so long that it’s usually me being the one reminding others of it and usually me being the one who has no problem with them but when you have so many excellent hero setbacks from the previous setup all undone by “the force” the totality of that is what makes it feel more contrived than what I’d ideally love.

Writing amazing setbacks for your protagonists that are so strong that viewers are left wondering “How can they possibly solve all of this quickly?” is good writing. Having them all solved relatively easily from a plot device like the force may not be, depending on execution. Fortunately for Dave he seemed to be at least partially aware of this and took the effort to setup the Purgil prior, explain them to the casual audience prior, and ended up crafting some nice force moments thet cast a spell powerful enough to keep my eye rolling away on first watch.

 

I can get behind this...maybe when Ahsoka is communing with the purgill we find out it was part of the pod that took Ezra and Thrawn with a live action flashback to that moment and we see where they ended up. So we know they are at least going close to the right place.

 

The question of "How on earth will the remaining heroes travel physically to the other galaxy" wasn't remotely "dramatic tension" in my eyes. Not even close.

The dramatic tensions are about Sabine's betrayal, who or what Ezra is now, how he would react to Sabine's decision, how Ahsoka will now see Sabine's decision, what Baylan's motivations are and what Thrawn's motivations are and how they will test and challenge Ahsoka and Sabine's beliefs. Those are the questions that are keeping me invested and none of those were undermined by this episode.

 

Well, we can't agree on everything

 

I agree with you that those are the big questions remaining but how many of those questions were actively presented through these first 5 episodes? I would argue that most of those big questions exist primarily from Star Wars fans familiarly with Thrawn, familiarity with the Jacen Solo being tortured and turned story within Legends, familiarity with Luke being different following exile, and anticipating Ezra being different more so from those things than anything the show itself has done to hint at that. Also, our knowledge of this series existing beyond a single season and even an upcoming film helps them. S1 of Ahsoka though has not done an amazing job so far of establishing precisely why Thrawn is such a dangerous antagonist, nor has it done an amazing job of proposing that after all this time away Ezra may not be as we last saw him. Now, perhaps both of those things are addressed as early as episode 6 and if they are I’ll be happy. I personally would have preferred the dramatic tension of intercutting to both Thrawn, Sabine and Ezra sooner into this episode to ratchet up the tension even more on these points though. That’s only a personal perspective of mine. I’m generally a fan of spending time with the antagonists and what they’re up to where possible and contrasting those plans with what the heroes are aiming to do. I can, however, appreciate the argument that holding back on all of this until Ahsoka herself has made her way to the same galaxy could end up yielding significant storytelling impact heading into the third act of this season.

 

Want to know something funny? I actually came across a post in Facebook where someone argued that Hayden was at a good age to actually replace SS in the scene towards the end of ROTJ where Luke removes Vader's helmet.

 

That's the exact message I got too, that Ahsoka was not living at the start of the show. She was only existing, moving from place to place without a true place to call home ('I go where I'm needed'). For her arc, that's what I took from it too. I think maybe they could have showed that Ahsoka was in that 'only existing' mental headspace a bit better throughout the first four episodes, but Rosario's change in demeanour has done a lot of the work for them creatively.

I think thematically for the show going forward, there's going to continue to be a massive focus on the Master/Apprentice relationship, and this experience with Anakin and Ahsoka shows us just how much a Master impacts their student, in good ways and bad ways. Apprentices become forged by their masters. I think that's going to play into the overall dynamics of the show- Sabine's going to need THIS Ahsoka. She opens herself up again, has the faith Baylan lacks.

Could be a great way to tie all these elements together, and it's all here in these stunning scenes that I still pinch myself about being real.

We really saw Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker with live action Ahsoka during The Clone Wars.

What a pure joy.

 

It can’t be overstated how cool it is to see Anakin’s version of Yoda’s wise cryptic spiritual advisor role.

Similar to how Yoda has been before to others seeking wisdom his goals are for those seeking guidance to come to their own conclusions and he will do what he thinks is necessary to coax that out of her but what’s so enjoyable is that he does it in all of the ways we know Anakin can be.

I also think this scene also really helps to re-establish the power of the Jedi’s unique Master and Padawan relationship. Qui-Gon mentoring Obi-Wan. Yoda and Obi-Wan mentoring Luke. Anakin mentoring Ahsoka.

There are many reasons why the Jedi don’t want their members to have kids it seems. Attachment risks and fear of loss being two of the most notable but I’ve also come to believe that part of it is commitment to the Master and Padawan relationship. The Jedi seem to want that bond to be the most powerful one of all. One that even exceeds dimensions and time. It is part of how the Jedi have survived and even though it’s less relatable to us as viewers than the magical bonds we all share with our own family members I do think it’s almost more fitting in a way that our first time with Anakin as a spiritual leader is not with Luke but rather his actual apprentice. There’s less emotional payoff for me personally but it’s consistent with the importance of the Master and apprentice force bond in canon and so I respect it.

 

We're not OT purists, we're Sebastian purists. We want all the Skywalkers to be played by guys named Sebastian... Sebastian Shaw as Anakin, Sebastian Stan as Luke, Sebastian Bach as Rey....

 

Ben Solo.

 

And Johann Sebastian to do the score.

 

But people who haven't seen TCW and Rebels would never know that her stoic behavior was different than it was in the past. They should've established within the Ahsoka show that she was acting different instead of expecting the audience to have watched a zillion seasons of cartoons. When people were asking why she was acting so stoic I thought it was nothing more than an acting choice. I thought that this was Rosario Dawson's interpretation of what an older Jedi-like character would act like. I never thought it was because she was traumatized because the show never establishes that.

I keep going back to the Kenobi show. Even if you'd never seen Star Wars you could fire up the first episode of the Kenobi show and recognize that this guy was broken. Ahsoka didn't do much of anything to establish that apparently we were watching a character who was suffering from past trauma and since we, (or at least I) didn't see that on the screen, Ahoska's trip to the WBW where she learned to let go of her past trauma and find inner peace didn't emotionally hit me. I still enjoyed those scenes on a very base level but when they concluded I didn't feel any catharsis. I was instead thinking, "oh she just worked through something I didn't know was bothering her in the first place. Huh."

I know everybody's just going to say, "hey the guy that didn't watch the cartoons didn't get the characters backstory. What a shocker!" But I feel like this show should stand on its own. I know this episode worked better for some people that didn't watch the cartoons and good for them but I maintain that they should've done a clearer job establishing what Ahoska emotional journey was. Again, people will accuse me of wanting everything spelled out but I don't. I didn't watch the OT thinking, "how does the Force work!??!!?" I just wanted some very basic information conveyed within the Ahsoka show. Something more than a couple of comments here and there and staring off into the distance. Instead of one episode of Anankin in the WBW maybe they should've included flashbacks leading up to episode five that established what Ahoska's trauma was and how much pain she was in and how that pain was interfering with life in the present. Or in lieu of flashbacks they could have her talking with another character about what she's going through. Simply showing Ahoska acting stoic and talking...very...slowly does not convey to me that she was traumatized by the clone wars and Anakin's fall to the dark side and that she needed to let go of all that.

When Ahsoka showed up in the WBW I thought she was going to have an conversation with Anakin about his fall to the dark side and how that affected her. Instead, I guess they conveyed that with some brief, vague platitudes about living or dying? At least I think that's what was going on! I'm still not totally sure!

Funny enough, I didn't hate this episode. I'd even say that I liked it. I gave it a 7 out of 10. It had so much potential! I just wish it worked better for me. Oh, also I subtracted a point for the lack of Ahsoka's coffee cup. Where the heck is that thing?!?!

 

Filoni is an OT purist. He stopped Darth Revan from appearing in TCW because he didn't think the Sith should have force spirits. That's the kind of traditionalist view that stifles creativity.

 

Anakin was a simple guy with a straightforward outlook on life. I wouldn't look for any sort of deeper philosophy underpinning his words. I think he was just giving Ahsoka her two options.

 

And yet Darth Bane appeared as spirit in TCW... Revan also was not only sith. So I think it was right decision not to have him as sith spirit.

 

I am not! I'm perfectly healthy, and I intend to live and haunt this place for decades to come!

Johann Sebastian as Palpatine. Somehow, he's Bach!

 

Couldn't agree more with this!

Re: the bold text, hahahaha! Big time! The only thing funnier than that is the person who will come along with a head cannon explanation for why they have brush teeth.

Also, yes! I assumed that after Ahoska communed with the whale she was going to say something to the effect of, "he's going to take us to where we need to go." That's all I'd need. I can fill in the blanks. I could assume that Ahsoka used the Force to let the whale know where they needed to go and the whale told her it would take her to the new galaxy. Ahsoka's "eh lets just roll the dice and see where we end up" attitude doesn't make a lot of since when theoretically they could end up nowhere near where they need to be, thus giving Thrawn the time he needs to escape, (which he's totally going to do anyway). I'm assuming that Ahsoka's "lets just see where this whale goes" approach was supposed to illustrate her post-WBW devil may care attitude but it came across as a bit silly and nonsensical and that silliness will carry over when the whale just happens to take them exactly where they need to be. Yeah, yeah, Star Wars has a tradition of crazy coincidences. I know. I'm not going to get hung up on the whales amazing GPS. Don't worry folks!

On a sidenote I chuckled a bit when Huyang said something to the effect of, "that whale there is one of the biggest ones." Yes, I think Ahsoka knows that Huyang because she has a pair of working eyeballs but thanks for telling her that! She never would've figured that out on her own! Ha!

 

This comes out as huge on my computer lol

 

Two things just came to me. One is what if this is non-linear storytelling? The end of Rebels is in a way a metaphor for this show. Ahsoka might not have been Ahsoka the White when she came to get Sabine, but when she's following Sabine to find Ezra she is. At the start of this show, Ahsoka was just existing, not fully real or not (or black or white if you will). Now she is real, because she's reconciled her past and things she's been through and now is Ahsoka the White.

The other is an idea on why there have been issues between Ahsoka & Sabine. Everything Sabine has been through is similar level trauma to Anakin's childhood. Sabine is also a rather hotheaded, impulsive, overconfident person. I can totally see Anakin pulling a similar move to what Sabine pulled with her speeder and the Ewing. This probably reminds Ahsoka a lot of Anakin. It'll be very interesting to see how the two of them interact now that Ahsoka has put her Anakin/Vader issues behind her.

 

The smoke will cover you.

 

I don't think he is a purist. I think Filoni may be one of the least purists who has worked on Star Wars. He has a very mystic vision for Star Wars, Which many OT purists will see as not being grounded enough.