PT An analysis of Anakin's turn

As Alienware points out, it really wasn't fast or sudden in that it's a big "wtf, where'd that come from", but I will say it is sudden in another sense - and I'll praise it for it

It adds a truly scary aspect to the dark side, an aspect of realizing how easy it is to be seduced by it. It truly is "the quick and easy path", but the lesson is it never works out in the end. I can't really compose my thoughts right now, and I doubt many would want to read an essay on it, but overall - yes, it's sudden in a sense. And in my opinion, it works perfectly and adds to the appeal

 

For me, there was definitely sufficient development for the specific actions he takes in ROTS up to the Mace Windu death. The previous movies were setting up that decision through moments like: leaving his mother, dreaming about his mother dying, his mother actually dying, and then dreaming about Padme dying. This all caused him to finally make the decision to save Palpatine (by acting against Mace and, by extension, the Jedi order) out of a selfish desire to save his wife from dying. I was fine with all of that. And with a sentence like that, you just know that there's a big "but" coming so......

BUT, there are aspects of his turn that I would have liked to see more of. Because for me, turning to the dark side is a multifaceted thing. If we examine Anakin's turn, we see that there's the "saving Padme" component, the "wanting more power" component, as well as a political component; all three of these were in play to cause Anakin to defect to Palpatine's side. However, I felt that the "power" and "political" angles kind of got the shaft in favor of the "saving Padme" reason.

Regarding the "power" reason, we see Anakin in AOTC talk about wanting to progress faster in his Jedi training and he later even mentions how he will be "the most powerful Jedi ever". In ROTS, he mentions that he "wants more" and that he knows the Jedi are hiding things about the Force from him, which suggests that he's curious about being more powerful. Now, these lines of dialogue are appreciated but I would have liked to see something other than dialogue to convey his lust for power. The dialogue is fine but I need it to be shown in order for me to buy it.
How I would address this: perhaps, in one of his fits of rage (like the Tusken slaughter), he taps into the dark side and realizes how much more powerful it makes him; thus, in what would be opposite to Luke's reaction to a similar scenario in ROTJ, he could be shown to enjoy this powerful feeling and would slowly start to tap into these aggressive feelings willingly. During this moment of "dark side discovery", the camera could slowly pan to his face as it changes from shock to a resolute determination to embrace the power he just discovered. I think that would make for a nice contrast with Luke because when Luke first tapped into the dark side in ROTJ, he immediately realized what was happening and rejected it (and perhaps he needed to see his father there as a reminder of what could happen to him).

Regarding the "political" reason, we see Anakin jokingly suggest a dictatorship to Padme in AOTC. Then, in ROTS, we see that he talks about bringing "peace, freedom, and justice" to his new empire. Now, I'm kind of divided on this political aspect. On the one hand, I don't feel like it's entirely necessary to include. BUT, the movies do include it....but through this kind of dialogue. So if this component must be present, I would have liked to see Anakin express more dissatisfaction with the political climate throughout the movies. Not so much as to bog the films down in exposition, but at least enough so that his "peace, freedom, and justice" line doesn't seem like it's coming out of nowhere (I don't count the Padme-teasing line in AOTC as sufficient development).

So yeah, that's what I would have liked to see more of. I do think that the "Padme saving" reason was developed rather well throughout the three movies and I completely bought Anakin's development as someone who becomes more and more greedily possessive of his loved ones. Though, like I said, I would have liked to see more attention given to the other components. Because the crux of my problem is that I don't feel an understanding for why Anakin stays with Palpatine after Padme dies. This was something I really struggled with after I saw the movie. Nowadays, I look towards his lines about wanting to be more powerful and bringing peace to the galaxy as a justification, but I just don't get an emotional satisfaction even though I logically understand it based on evidence from the films. I'll draw a comparison to Breaking Bad. We initially see that Walt gets into the meth business because he seemingly wants to make enough money to both pay for his cancer treatment and provide enough money for his family after he dies; this is comparable to the "Padme-saving" reason. But then, somewhere at the end of season 2, after he's seemingly accumulated enough money, we are shown scenes where he is just bored of his normal everyday life. Then, something clicks, and he snaps back into Heisenberg mode as we begin to truly understand that this, to Walt, is about more than just his family. So I would have liked to see something more like that where we can see a greater insight into what is motivating Anakin post-Padme-death. That being said, I do realize that 2-hour movies only allow for so much time to develop things. Could it have been done sufficiently to my liking while still conveying everything else Lucas wanted to show? Maybe, maybe not.

 

I think his turn is completely fine. The seeds are planted in Episode I and II so I'm glad his fall is half way through the movie. I like how the movie splits Anakin in its acts. Anakin is Anakin in the first half of Episode III and then the last half is a pre suit Darth Vader. I think Anakin/Vader is still trying to rationalize what happened when Palpatine crowns him and the audience can clearly see Anakin is in a state of desperation externally and clearly is distraught and psychologically damaged in that scene.

My ONLY complaint is I love Pre Suit Vader (yes even more than black armored Vader) and I would've loved more screentime from him. There is obviously the subtle (really subtle) points that Anakin wasn't really tied to his Sith persona until Mustafar. He answers both to Vader by his master and Anakin by his loved ones until Padme realizes Vader is who she is really talking to. Vader's atrocities send him deeper into the abyss (obviously) but the more evil he commits, the more he rationalize it's for peace and security. A pretty cool seed for why Anakin/Vader works for a militant government that doesn't tolerate insurrection.

 

More cowbell.

 

Good post, I mostly agree. I have a few observations that may fill in some of the aspects of the fall that you saw as lacking.


On Anakin using the dark side and seeing it gives him superior power, I agree that it should have been more developed, but there are hints of it there.

Mostly regarding Dooku, Imo. Notice Anakin's mentor Obi-Wan never gains any apparent advantage from relying on his emotions. He is disarmed and knocked down the reactor shaft when he gets angry with Maul in TPM. While arguably his anger gave him some increased power and speed, Obi-Wan is bested by Maul, and only comes back from the brink of defeat when he calms himself and meditatively relies on the force. Similarly he is fighting defensively against Vader in ROTS, and only cripples Anakin when Anakin basically forces his hand.

Next, the two fights with Dooku - Anakin twice sees Obi-Wan, perhaps in Obi-Wan's strict adherence to the Jedi code, is quite easily taken out of the fight by Dooku. Anakin puts up more of a fight than Obi-Wan in AOTC, but at the level he is in AOTC (and not tapping into the dark side) Anakin is still cleanly defeated.
In ROTS Anakin is, as planned by the Sith, driven to a point that he will tap his anger. It is only when he uses his anger and hate that he focuses his power and quickly overwhelms Dooku. Palpatine later comments in the scene where he reveals his Sith identity "I can feel your anger. It gives you focus! Makes you stronger." to which Anakin turns off his saber and arrests him - what Palpatine has said admittedly doesn't contradict his own earlier experiences and he knows it. "The word "focus" is particularly relevant; it seems this is exactly what Anakin was doing when he beat Dooku.

Yoda commented that Anakin's "fear" will lead to "anger and hate" in TPM. Dooku then a states an (inverting TPM Yoda and echoing ESB Vader) suggestion - overcome your fear, release your hatred. Anakin has heard Yoda warn of this path, but Dooku is suggesting a way around this restriction, by embracing the very things he is taught to fear. The ROTS novelisation repeatedly references Anakin's fear of death as the metaphorical dead-star-dragon that Anakin is trying to crush by turning when he pledges to Sidious.
Another relevant thing being hinted in ROTS is that Anakin, obviously perhaps, sees the Sith as more powerful than the Jedi. Palpatine's first (sneakily deceptive) lines to Anakin in the film are "Count Dooku." and "Get help, you're no match for him, he's a Sith Lord!" (think of Palpatine's sincere words to Maul in TPM - "They will be no match for you.") There are constant reminders to Anakin that the Sith hold great power.

And notice Anakin's telling wording on reporting Palpatine to Mace - "Master, the Chancellor is very powerful. You'll need my help if you're going to arrest him."
Anakin sees the Jedi as too weak to "fix" his and the galaxy's problems (very much tied to and spiraling with his own). In the opera scene Palpatine labeled the potential secret Sith powers as "unnatural"... where Yoda told Anakin what he didn't want to hear, that death was a "natural" part of life. Interestingly Palpatine also references Anakin's revenge killing of Dooku as "natural"; So from a pov is he telling Anakin the same as Yoda there?

Finally, Palpatine's opera scene ends with "Is it possible to learn this power?" "Not from a Jedi." which Obi-Wan inadvertently reinforces during their farewell "I have taught you everything I know." And is echoed by the Emperor to Luke "I look forward to completing your training."




On the political aspect of Anakin's turn, it seems this was way more prevalent in the script and original cut of ROTS.
Anakin is far more on board with Palpatine's political ideology when he turns in the original cut, but hints still remain in the final film.

In a deleted scene (featured in the bluray extras) Palpatine comments that the Republic and Jedi Order sacrificing several liberties through constitutional amendments will help bring a quick end to things. Anakin hesitantly agrees. Anakin had displayed his belief in a "greater good" in TPM and AOTC - "Mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is no one helps each other." and "Then they should be made to (agree, by someone wise)" - which Palpatine capitalises on... "Ever since I've known you, you have been seeking a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi. A life of significance, of conscience."
He references Anakin's "wisdom" twice in this scene as well; he is coercing Anakin into taking charge and determining his own destiny.

Something I found interesting here is that in ROTS the "quick solution through force" ideology is, arguably misguidedly, echoed by Yoda - "The capture of General Grievous will end this war. Quickly and decisively we must proceed." (Yoda and Obi-Wan of course contrastingly reinforcing in the OT the huge importance of patience.)
And curiously, notice Yoda's comment "The outlying systems you must sweep." when Palpatine is on their side, not outside the Republic, and additionally Luke's greatest revelation in the OT is that a Jedi's greatest enemy is within him/herself.
Obi-Wan's "It may turn out just to be a wild Bantha chase." is ironic to me because of this. The whole Clone Wars are one.
I think Mon Mothma's ROTJ line "With the Imperial Fleet spread thin across the galaxy in a vane effort to engage us..." strongly parallels the Republic's own war efforts at the end of the PT. Yoda and many Jedi Masters are away from Coruscant when they are needed during Order 66.

The skeleton of Anakin's views is apparent in the final cut, for example parroting Palpatine's words to Padme an Obi-Wan post-turn, but it was originally more strongly implied that Anakin could become someone who values the security and order of the Empire over the moral implications of their means.

 

I personally always felt Anakin's fall was paced naturally. When I saw it in the theaters, nothing "wrong" about it jumped out at me. I never knew people complained about it until the last few years. For me, I never thought it was "too sudden". The thought that always crossed my mind was, "finally, this is what we've long been building up to". The Padme's Ruminations scene always sells the dramatic weight of Anakin's turn for me.

I would only think it may seem sudden if I were to judge it solely on ROTS as a stand alone film. I think the other films give important context.

I think AOTC basically already fleshes out that a part of Anakin's soul has been plunged into the dark side. This is the film where he is "lost" to its influence, though he doesn't consciously and fully embrace it until the next film. And TPM lays the foundations and foreshadowing for that.

Additionally, ROTJ already shows (and ESB implies) that the dark side is very quick to consume anyone who turns to it. Luke was on the verge just because he angrily lashed out at Vader a bit. And he certainly had a lot less weight pushing him to the dark side than Anakin did.

I've basically just reiterated what some others already said above me, but there you have it.

If you had asked me a few years ago, I would have told you I didn't care for Anakin very much. That being said, I've come to appreciate his character more and more in recent times. I think, solely from the prequels, he has the most complex, most fleshed-out, and most interesting arc of any character from the 7 films. His "Vader" arc in the OT is just the icing on the cake.

Also, going off on a bit of a tangent: I will admit that I wasn't that enthusiastic about TFA, one of my issues being that I felt it didn't add enough to the overall myth and parable of Star Wars. But the one thing I found really interesting was how Anakin's arc played into the movie. The movie touched upon this theme of legacy that I hope is more explored in the next films.

Rey now possesses Anakin's blue lightsaber, a symbol of the "Anakin" persona, and a symbolic torch which she is now carrying, previously held by Luke, who himself took it from Anakin. On the other hand, Kylo Ren obviously is deliberately trying to carry on Vader's legacy, and he possesses the helmet, a symbol of the "Vader" persona.

Basically, Anakin figuratively lives on through his two grandchildren, each of whom embodies one of his personas.

(Also, I am aware that it was not confirmed that Rey is Anakin's granddaughter, but I take that as a given regardless. Daisy Ridley has too much of a resemblance to Natalie Portman and Pernilla August for her character to not be genetically descended from theirs. Check the pics for comparison.)

 

It seems odd that people overlook that scene and the one that precedes it. Anakin is essentially presented with a dilemma and the second vision spurs him on. He wishes to do what he can to save Padme but he still possesses some loyalty to the Jedi and some respect for their ideals. For example, when Mace was about to kill him, he told him that he needed to stand trial. That killing him in his chambers was not the way of the Jedi. This is actually a very strong moment in the film. He hopes that he wouldn't have to betray the Jedi to receive Palpatine's knowledge but tragically, due to the Mace's (albeit correct) assumption that he wouldn't be convicted, his decision to kill him makes Anakin have to finally choose. The first time I saw the movie, it was extremely intense. What further adds to the intensity is the fact that it is the first time where Palpatine looks utterly petrified. He knows that everything he spent planning for decades hinged on that very moment and when it worked, his cathartic roar of victory was perfect. The maddening look in his eye as the galaxy was finally in his iron grip.

Just my two cents.

 

It's very telling, that look on Palpatine's face before the big choice. Everything he's worked to achieve for decades stood on the edge of a cliff. All it took for it to all unravel was for Anakin to simply let Mace kill him.

 

I thought Palpatine's fear was feigned tbh. The fear on his face was convincing only to Anakin and Mace. Mace and Anakin had to think Palpatine had lost for Mace's actions to be immoral and force Skywalker's hand.
In the novelisation, just before Anakin enters the room, Mace falsely reads the situation and states Palpatine has been defeated by his fear. To which Palpatine retorts; "Fool! You think the fear you feel is mine?" Anakin is fearful, it has driven him to Palpatine's office in the first place. Hell, it drives much of his actions in the entire trilogy.

The way I read it, when Palpatine reveals his Sith identity to Anakin, he has several backup plans. The news that Anakin delivers - that Grievous has been destroyed - means that Palpatine can kick his plan into it's next phase. Grievous was really just a scapegoat for the war (like Dooku) that Palpatine can blame for everything, and get the Jedi (who are really wasting their war efforts) to dispose of him. Grievous also gets Obi-Wan away from Anakin, and Palpatine knows tensions between the Council, Anakin and Palpatine is ultimately pushing Skywalker closer to Sidious. So he times the revelation here to set up the confrontation in his office. He told Mace early in the film "The war will continue as long Grievous is alive." And Palpatine isn't stupid, he knows the Jedi are stressed for the war's end, and that the news that he is the Sith will send them immediately to secure the Republic.

If Mace brings Anakin initially Palpatine will pretend to go quietly, knowing Anakin will want to pump him for info while he goes on (a rigged) trial.
If Mace leaves Anakin behind, his preferred outcome, Palpatine can fight at full strength until Anakin is near (he knows Anakin will at least be there eventually). I'm unsure if he genuinely loses his lightsaber, but unlike Mace Palpatine is close to Anakin and senses he is nearing the office.
They argue, and Palpatine soon tries to electrocute Mace. Imo he is trying his luck with the lightning, he is testing the situation, and being a dark-sider is purposely increasing the stress and tension to cause Mace (then Anakin) to crack.
When he feigns loss of power he has foreseen that Anakin won't let Mace strike, but it is part of his megalomania that he will create such as dangerous situation for himself just to get his way.

I agree. This look particularly...



He's making sure the last pieces of his plan are going where his precognition indicated. Palpatine can read Anakin like a book. He trusts Anakin, and it makes ROTJ all the more satisfying and ironic.

 

HevyDevy that is my read on the entire thing as well. Especially when Anakin's turn in Palpatine's throne room in RotJ is set up in essentially the exact same way as his turn in RotS in Palpatine's quarters, but played out with the inverse choices made.

 

Good to see someone agrees.

I love that so many details between the two arcs at each trilogies end link up so directly. 90% of people watching probably don't fully notice.
It might not be that interesting to some, but it would be less frustrating if it was a little more acknowledged.

 

I think at this point Anakin is mentally flailing and is desperate and erratic. He's trying to choose between doing what the Jedi tells him is right and saving Padme. I think he's trying to do the right thing at every point up until the very end when he can't possibly help the Jedi and help Padme, so chooses trying to save Padme.

 

I think Anakin's internal conflict is best illustrated when Palpatine exposes his true colors to him.



Even here, he readily admits that he would certainly like to kill Palpatine right then and there before ultimately turning him in to the Jedi Council. To me, it shows that he is contemplating the consequences of each course of action. Kill him right then and there, and maybe he'll be a hero to the Jedi, but his wife will almost certainly die in childbirth, and even if she doesn't, he'd eventually be exposed as the father of her twins and be expelled from the Order (in addition, this would sabotage his wife's political career in the process, assuming she survives, since she did admit doubt that she'd be allowed to keep her seat in the Senate if this was exposed)...and possibly face prosecution and even execution for assassination as well. Join him right then and there and he'll gain the power to save his wife, but at a terrible price. Snitch on him and he risks the entire Jedi Order being branded as Traitors. Needless to say, he was really in a no-win situation, regardless of what course of action he took. It's quite obvious that the lure of saving his pregnant wife from his nightmares was too much for him. What's most ironic is the fact that the one genuine opportunity to save his family from certain death was what turned him against Sidious and brought him back to the light, even at the expense of his own life.

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I do find it somewhat amusing that people thought I was actually claiming that George Lucas is deliberately promoting genocide. Even I don’t believe that, and I have zero respect for Lucas. What I do believe is that Lucas is a genuinely god-awful writer and that he really wants us to believe that the slaughtering of Jedi children is worse than the slaughtering of the Sand People children for a far sillier, far more idiotic and far more arbitrary reason- because Lucas says so and his grand egotistical vision dictates that that he so.

I was simply facetiously pointing that Anakin’s actions in the two scenes are literally no different. The only discernible distinction really is the fact that the Jedi children are white. And I seriously doubt this was intentional on Lucas’s part because to claim this is deliberate racism actually gives him too much credit, as that would imply that Lucas is perceptive and that he knows how to communicate his ideas, when clearly neither of those are true. No, it simply proves that Lucas is an insensitive idiot.

And the idea that Anakin’s actions are justifiable because he was angry? Not buying it. That’s the defense a wife beater uses. “But c’mon, Your Honor! I was loaded and she made me angry. She called me names and said I had a small ****. Of course, I had to mash her face into a pulp and send her to the intensive care unit. She was asking for it!”

And no. The massacre does not represent a step toward him becoming Darth Vader. It’s not subtle foreshadowing. At that point, he IS Vader. No ifs, ands, or buts. That’s the point where he turns to the dark side. Everything else is just a formality after that. The fact that he tries to delude himself about it and that Lucas tries to delude the audience about it does not change that fact. Maybe a psychopath would think that he’s still a good person at that point…but fortunately, the majority of people are not psychopaths, which is why these movies- and the character of Anakin Skywalker, in particular- are widely hated.

 

Yeah, because he put no thought into it at all .

No, it's because the first killing was spur of the moment. He didn't go into the village with the intent of killing anyone, it was a rescue mission. He reaches his mother at the worst possible moment and just explodes. It's pure mindless rage, revenge for how they made him feel. A precursor to complete selfishness, but not all the way there yet.
With the younglings he knew what he was going in there to do. He wasn't angry, he had time to change his mind. It wasn't revenge, they hadn't technically wronged him in any way. It was simply an attempt to stop them growing into Jedi and coming after he and Sidious. And to solidify his loyalty to Sidious and grow in power.
Completely pre-meditated and much colder.

Fair call, to an extent. It isn't supposed to be a pretty side of the character.

Partly by people who had made their decision before they even viewed ROTS. The film doesn't exist in a vacuum, it sends context reverberating backwards and forwards throughout the six saga films.

 

Well, the prequels kinda prove that that’s Lucas’s m.o.

That defense only works so long as you don’t try to picture the scene in your head. I really sympathize with a guy who mowed down defenseless children as their mothers begged for mercy and attempted to shield their kids from this murderous lunatic. I can’t help but picture something like this:



Pretty horrifying, isn’t it?

And I have exactly as much sympathy for Anakin as I have for wife beaters—0. I buy “He’s really a good guy when he’s not murdering kids, whining about Obi-Wan, and/or treating everyone around him like garbage” about as much as I buy “No, no, he’s really a good guy when he’s not beating me or drinking”—which is to say, I don’t buy it at all.

Interesting anecdote here. When Francis Ford Coppola made THE GODFATHER, he originally intended for the scene where Michael Corleone kills Carlo Rizzi to be the point of no return. However, when he saw it with an audience for the first time, everyone cheered because they thought Carlo got what was coming to him. Shock of shocks, the audience was rooting for Carlo to die after this scene:



However, instead of insisting to everybody that Carlo really was a good guy, Coppola made THE GODFATHER: PART II, and had Michael kill someone who truly was sympathetic and not a bad guy- Fredo Corleone.

Yeah. REVENGE OF THE SITH showed us that Anakin as a bad guy was actually no different than Anakin as a good guy. He hated Obi-Wan, supported fascism, and murdered kids in the last movie and he hates Obi-Wan, supports fascism, and murders kids in this movie. It’s not that the turn was too quick. It’s that it happened somewhere offscreen between THE PHANTOM MENACE and ATTACK OF THE CLONES. It also gives us the context of understanding that apparently Obi-Wan’s prequel experiences turned him into a horrible pathological liar.

“Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed.[…]Anakin was a good friend.”

a) Anakin was EXACTLY the same as Darth Vader. EXACTLY! He simply changed his name. Other than that, he was no different on the lava planet than in ATTACK OF THE CLONES. “Ceases to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader,” my ass!
b) He was never a good man. NEVER! “Good man,” my ass!
c) You were never good friends. NEVER! In fact, you barely tolerated each other right up until the point where you both tried killing each other. “Good friend,” my ass!

Now there are basically one of two possibilities here:

1. Lucas is an idiot and a terrible screenwriter.
2. Lucas is profoundly misanthropic to the point that he believes that there’s little-to-no difference between good and evil, and that even the allegedly “good” people are horrible child-murdering psychopaths (Anakin) or massive hypocrites (Natalie Portman).

And I hate to harp on the Joffrey point, but he really is the only other fictional character I can think of who even slightly resembles Anakin. They’re both incredibly temperamental, spoiled, petulant idiots who blame everything that goes wrong in their life on others, they treat everyone around them like garbage, throw gigantic tantrums whenever they don’t get their way, resort to murder when they’re really angry, and especially target the one person who’s taken it upon themselves to knock some sense into the little brat, sees right through him and tries to point it out to everyone, or at least tries to curb his excesses (Obi-Wan and Tyrion). The only real difference (i.e. non-superficial) is that George R.R. Martin wants us to hate Joffrey whereas Lucas wants us to like Anakin for some inexplicable reason. Gollum was a more likable, sympathetic and relatable character than Anakin- and he looked like a strung-out junky, whereas Anakin looks like a GQ model.

 

Anakin is hardly spoiled. In what way is he in the slightest? He was a slave for the first decade of his life, then raised in seclusion with the Jedi. He wants liberation, and Obi-Wan is a strict teacher, so there are bound to be some issues.

Just because a reminiscing, lying Obi-Wan from 20 years later says he was a friend, the relationship between them must be perfect?

 

a) Guilt by association
b) You can’t hold kids liable for the actions of their parents- especially not in STAR WARS. Unless you wanna argue that Luke should be held accountable for his father’s actions.

Y’know, except for this scene:



Interrupting his girlfriend in front of her co-workers.
Yelling at her in front of co-workers.
Publicly causing a scene and embarrassing her.
Sarcastic apology.

This is just how Anakin treats people.

Or in the speeder, when Obi-Wan’s trying to get through to the little ****head and Anakin is all like, “**** you! I’m driving a cool car and recklessly endangering us!” Or when they’re yelling and screaming at each other in the gunship and Obi-Wan looks like he’s resisting the urge to strangle him.

He lied once and with good reason. He was not a pathological liar whose every word was a fabrication. And that’s supposed to be the scene where Obi-Wan comes clean to Luke. But nope. Still lying. I could go line-through-line regarding everything Obi-Wan says and find about 50 lies…lies for no good reason.

You have no right to complain about living a life of wealth and luxury as you’re being trained to be some sort of superpowered ninja. I mean, they live in a goddamn palace practically! Luke had to train in a filthy swamp yet he doesn’t have 1% of the sense of ego or entitlement that his father had.

And I never said the relationship had to be perfect, just that it had to be a friendship. Here’s the dictionary definition of “friend”:

“a person attached to another by feelings of affection or personal regard.”

There are no feelings of affection or personal regard between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Instead we see enmity, which is defined thusly:

“a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism.

That’s a perfect description of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Hostility. Ill will. Animosity. Antagonism. We see plenty of that. For the record, enmity is the exact opposite of friendship according to the thesaurus.[/quote]

 

Yet that didn’t stop Anakin from murdering the kids as well. I mean, it’s kinda hard not to sympathize with a mother trying to protect her kid. And for all you know, maybe the women were absolutely horrified by what was going on with Anakin’s mom. Maybe they did nothing not because they approved of what was happening, but out of fear of reprisal.

She didn’t interrupt him. She simply clarified that Anakin wasn’t a Jedi Master. And as she points out, she's lived on this planet her whole life and knows it quite well. Anakin spent a week at most there a decade ago. I’m siding with her on this one.

He does nothing but whine and complain about how he’s being held back and how Obi-Wan is such a horrible meanie head for not just handing him the magic key to becoming all-powerful on a silver platter. Luke simply asked to be given the opportunity to train. And as I recall, it was Obi-Wan who sent Luke out to that miserable swamp and urged him to train with Yoda. If it hadn’t been Obi-Wan telling him to haul ass to Dagobah and train with Yoda, Luke probably would’ve just stuck with the Rebel Alliance.

And Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Princess Leia don’t particularly like each other at first. They become friends over the course of the trilogy. Here they are by the end:



By contrast, the first time we see Obi-Wan and Anakin in the prequels, we see hostility, ill will, animosity and antagonism. The last time they’re together, they’re trying to kill each other. The enmity goes from barely contained to lethal.

 

The ability to type doesn't make you intelligent. Wise words of Qui-Gon proven right yet again. Can't wait to get to a computer and destroy some fools. This is where the fun begins!

 

Whenever somebody says something as absurd as "George Lucas can't write", I ask them to show us their own writing. Or I seek it if they're posting it anywhere. In most cases, the results are pointless, plotless stories, rehashes etc.

Hevy - I owe you a response from, like, August last year and I'm super slow, but I've been skimming this almost religiously, so I thought I'd tell you.

 

That's flattering, eager to hear your thoughts.

 

Out of curiosity, I wonder how many of you are familiar with the My Lai massacre. I can tell you that Lucas certainly remembers it. It was the mass killing of helpless inhabitants of a village in South Vietnam during the Vietnam War, carried out in 1968 by United States troops under the command of Lieutenant William Calley. Calley was court-martialed and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Oliver Stone included a pretty disturbing dramatization of it in PLATOON (they never explicitly refer to it as My Lai, but anyone familiar with the history of Vietnam knows that that’s what it was supposed to be):





Tell me how what Anakin did is any different from the My Lai massacre. I can tell you that tempers certainly ran high during that as well.

 

I'd also like to put in a few more posts when I can.

Great thread from a great poster.