An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for Darth Vader

Well, I already know that you do not think he sucks.

I do.

My username itself is not to be taken to heart - it was the first one that was accepted since there are so many members. I find it ironic that some in the past who have made absolute distinctions between Anakin and Vader, have automatically assumed that I think Vader sucks.

They were however correct.

The fact that I do think he sucks should not be taken to heart either.

When I say that he sucks, I probably mean (though I do not go around psychoanalyzing myself) that over all he his character is the least pleasing to me.

There really is nothing more to it.

 

George Lucas disagrees with you.

In fact, having Anakin destroy the Jedi does NOT bring balance to the Force, it only throws it further off balance. The Jedi are like the immune system that keeps your body in check and what the Sith are doing to the galaxy is like putting poison in your body. Anakin is suppose to be the antidote for that poison by getting rid of the Sith but since PalpSidious brainwashed him into becoming his apprenctice, Anakin only helped spread the poison across the galaxy by killing off the Jedi.

Destroying the Sith IS the only way to bring balance and Anakin did just that in ROTJ by killing off PalpSidious and dying in the process.

It's still a big mistake because it seemed like Obi-wan was using the "train Jedi for dummies" book to train Anakin and he didn't teach him any social studies on how learn self-control or how to prevent anyone from manipulating him into turning to the Dark Side. Obi-wan should've gone to a more-experienced Jedi Master such as Yoda or Mace Windu so they could train Anakin but no, he thought "he could instruct Anakin just as well as Yoda could but he was wrong" so for that, he lost Anakin to PalpSidious.

 

George Lucas disagrees with you.


Then I would disagree with him.

 

Wow! RamRed dissagrees with George Lucas! Stop the presses!

 

You pretty much spelled it out right here, good post. I agree 110%

 

Me too.
Do we need a new thread then? "An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for George Lucas..."

 

You might be on to something...

Except I don't see it as an ever growing problem. It's Lucas's own fault that people are disagreeing with him, even though whatever he says is supposed to be the highest level of canon in the SW universe. He is constantly condradicting himself and changing his take on certain aspects of the SW universe. I am one of those people that no longer have any faith in what George Lucas is saying. After I watched him misprounce "dooku" on the AotC DVD, that was it for me. Or like I mentioned earlier in this thread, how for the ANH duel with OB and Vader, he decides to explain the lame special effects as Vader no longer can move in the suit and OB is too old. Why would you say that? Everyone realized the lackluster duel was because the film came out in '77 and the technology wasn't great. I was fine with it, I just imagined a better, different duel going on in my head. So he says at 57 OB is too old to move well, but in the PT Count Dooku is 83 and moves as well as Anakin Skywalker. Palpatine is RotS, schools everyone in his office and the guy is 60ish. George Lucas needs to shut his mouth and just let us watch the films.

 

Amen, brother.

 

I second that....

 

To build on a little bit of my previous anti Lucas rant, I have to ask why every time Vader comes up, Lucas decides to spew some anti Vader hate speech. Does he think fans are interested in Vader as a pathetic loser? I have seen countless fans post how disappointed they were that they no longer see Vader is the ulimate bad guy due to the Prequel Trilogy and the especially Lucas's comments. I get that George Lucas's Prequel Trilogy is about how Anakin made some bad choices and now, in the OT, he is not the man he should have become. But I can imagine that already just seeing how sad it was that Anakin Skywalker was a galactic hero that fell to the dark side. Lucas saying that he gets bossed around and no one respects him doesn't add to the tradegy. It just makes people lose respect for Vader, and that is so sad. How far has Vader fallen from being viewed as this powerful, evil bad guy? From his height in ESB to today. Vader's fallen far I think, and Lucas's comments are really helping destroy Vader. Poll the young fans of that have grown up on the PT and ask them what they think of Vader. Comments you might hear: weak, pathetic. It's a damn shame. Lucas is cheating the character that made Star Wars. When you degrade Vader, Mr. Lucas, you are degrading Star Wars itself. I'm not saying that Vader is stonger than Palpatine or Luke didn't defeat him on DSII or that Vader is the greatest thing ever. I just want Lucas to say something good about the guy. Beating him down over and over serves no purpose. George, we know it's sad that Vader fell to the dark side. We don't want to hear you talk about how other imperials didn't respect Vader or that Vader virtually no movement in his suit in the duel against Kenobi. Darth Vader is a Dark Lord of the Sith. He's supposed to be evil and powerful. Respected and feared. The ulimate bad guy. Why are you taking that away from us, George Lucas?

 

I agree. I choose not to listen to that crap, personally. Vader is, and always will be a bad ass in my book. I don't buy any of the "Vader is weak" stuff. Lucas' own explanation doesn't make sense within his own definition of midichlorians, and how they affect a force user. Vader's main weakness in is the gradual emergence of Anakin. Otherwise, I think that Vader would have defeated Luke easily in ROTJ.

 

I agree with all of it except about Luke. Vader's a bad ass, but by RotJ so is Luke.

 

I dont think Lucas is against Vader out and out, or he wouldnt have created such an interesting villain. Yet there is a cult of Vader (of which I am a member) who praise him and his actions. Lucas is out for good, of course he would try to dismiss Vader as a deplorable being, because Lucas supports the good guys of this piece. I think he originally intended us to be all about Luke, but most of us gravitated to Vader. I dont know about you, but when I played SW with my toys as a kid, I always had the Empire kicking alot of ass. I did the same thing with my GIJoe's, Cobra always had the upper hand, and it took alot of death on the Joe team's effort to stop them. Back to Lucas, he made Ep 3 a tragedy, and intended to show the Sith as terrible people, and found that alot of fans were crazy for the Sith instead of being saddened by the Jedi's fall. I remember grinning from ear to ear as Order 66 went down. I need to go home and rethink my life...

 

I agree with the basis of this statement.
The OT was supposed to be about the good guys. But it was Vader that captured the Star Wars fan base. Vader was the bad guy, but he was such a good villain that we loved him for it and praised his evil ways(at least I know I did and still do).

This is not how Lucas intended us to feel about Vader. He wanted us to hate him and feel sorry for him at the same time. Thats why Lucas showed Vader doing dispicable things in the PT like storming the temple and killing younglings especially to invoke the hate for Vader that he wanted us to have when the OT came out.

Because Vader was so powerful in the OT(without a doubt the most impressive character in the OT power wise. Even more impressive than Luke and the Emperor), and for lack of a better term, so damn cool. We overlooked his evilness and cheered everytime he choked out an imperial officer. So in order for Lucas to make us feel like he intended us to feel about Vader all he could do is show Vader in the PT doing really vile things like choking Padme and killing youunglings. On top of which he also down graded Vader's power level from the alr

 

Hhhhhhgh-phhhhhhh

What you want, baby I got it.

Hhhhhhgh-phhhhhhh

 

It's still a big mistake because it seemed like Obi-wan was using the "train Jedi for dummies" book to train Anakin and he didn't teach him any social studies on how learn self-control or how to prevent anyone from manipulating him into turning to the Dark Side.


It was a big mistake . . . in that Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council should have realized that Obi-Wan was not ready to train Anakin.

It was one thing when Qui-Gon was dying and he desperately needed someone to ensure that Anakin would be trained in the Jedi arts . . . especially since the Council had rejected Anakin.

But once Qui-Gon was dead and the Council had reversed its decision regarding Anakin, they should have realized that Obi-Wan was not truly ready to be Anakin's Jedi mentor. And Obi-Wan should have realized this, as well.


Because Vader was so powerful in the OT(without a doubt the most impressive character in the OT power wise.

Does being a one-note villain equals to being powerful and impressive? I wonder.

 

"He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, 'Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?' He even gets pushed around by the governors! They know the Emperor is the final word, so what happens is the same thing that happens in any corporation: Everybody worries about the top man, they don't worry about his goon. And by the time the Death Star is finished, it gives them the sense that they have a bigger, better suit than Darth Vader. In a standoff between the Death Star and Darth Vader, they have no question about who would win, and it's not this mumbo-jumbo Sith guy. So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview 2005.

Sinnion, this is what am refering to. I mean what kind of $#!% is this? Refering to Vader as his 'goon'? A 'mumbo jumbo Sith guy'? Or So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky. A flunky? George Lucas is telling all SW fans that Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the freaking Sith is a flunky? When I see that my repect for Vader doesn't appeciate, it just makes me sad. Because a wonderful character is being destroyed. If you would have read carefully, I don't have a problem with the way Vader is protrayed in the PT or OT. I specifically have an issue with Lucas's comments. The above is a real problem. Lucas saying that Vader wasn't respected by a bunch of Imperial berucrats, how does that help Vader's image? How does that benefit SW in general? I agree with Darth Juggalo when he says Lucas sat down and tried his best to get everyone to dislike Vader. It's just rediculous.

 

The Prequel trilogy really didn't effect my opinion of Darth Vader, because for years before I would think of what he might have been like as Anakin Skywalker. Although, I firmly believe that Vader was Skywalker mentally and emotionally and that Skywalker was never figuratively "murdered" by Vader..the whinny little kid in the Prequel's is somehow seperate than the Force choking villain in the Original trilogy to me.


~Piper

 

Well I've heard many artists and story tellers refer to a creation of their's, that is fantastic, as crap.

It shouldn't affect what is seen by you.

He's so overwhelming in that first film, but you get to the point where you say, 'Wait a minute, if he's so powerful, why doesn't he run the universe?

Lucas may have gotten to a point where he's thought this, but thats his opinion when he views the story.


Lucas saying that Vader wasn't respected by a bunch of Imperial berucrats, how does that help Vader's image?

Vader is Sidious' creation, his right hand man. Vader is going to let beraucrats do what they do. He has no reason to want to get into the politics of things like the sympathy of the rebellion. He could've killed everyone of them in that office, but he knows the importance of what the beraucrats do.

Sidious is the ultimate bad guy with the powerful monster Darth Vader as his right hand man. Thats what I see on screen, so thats what the story is to me.



GL's comments are just a certain way to view the story. If you don't see that certain interpretaion, and you see a different one, then thats the story.



By the way LordVader do you have the question that was asked that goes along with that statement, I'm interested in what was asked.

 

Oh deer GOD Lucas is star wars end of the freakin story no matter how hard it's for you to accept. The story about Vader being Lukes father was always there and the DVD documentary says so and if you cant take the creators word for it here is the proof: He's just not a frarmer Owen, he has to much of his father in him. Thats what Im freakin afraid of.

And the lightsaber fight in ANH is that way because of the crappy swordfighters that Alec and Prowse was end of story.

 

First of all Owen may well have said that due to Anakin being a Jedi and getting killed by Vader as we thought back then not just his father turning to the DS although it may have done.
And you are correct about the saber fight and agree about how Lucas has basically insulted Vader and Obi with them being a cripple and an old man who can barely fight despite Dooku and in a manner of speaking Grievous in the PT.

 

Hmm. Lack of respect for Darth Vader. My guess would be for how the character was handled in the PT. Plus, the whole de-mystifying of the character through over-exposure of what he's all about probably didn't help. Heck, I almost think he's a pansy myself. Luckily I'm trying to distance myself from the prequels lately. That ought to help.

 

ITA LordVader! Old school fan here.

 

I dont think Obi-wan gets enough respect. People say he wasn't ready or he wasn't qualified to train Anakin who turned out to be a whiny teenager in AOTC...but who could have trained Anakin..Yoda? The most powerful and wise Jedi ever couldn't even keep Luke under control...the Force only knows how he would have kept Anakin in line.

I don't think it is Obi-Wan's failure, the blame lies with Anakin alone. He would have turned out the same way no matter who trained him.

As for the whole ultimate bad guy thing, Vader never was. In the PT it was Sidious and in the OT it was also Sidious. Sidious was the ultimate bad guy, Vader was the ultimate bad ass.

I don't see a contradiction in the PT of Vader's status as this bad ass villain in the OT. The PT is about his journey towards the mask and helmet. The hatred is there, the acts of violence and power are there...when you see Anakin walking up the steps of the temple with the clones...that's bad ass Vader. When you see him wiping out the seperatists, that's bad ass Vader.

I don't think Lucas ruined Vader...everybody loves a good villain...while people might love watching Vader choking Imperial officers...ultimately, we're rooting for the good guys...we know Luke has to save the day...we want Luke to save the day...it's just fun watching Vader go all Sith Lord on everyone before Luke does save the day.

The PT is about progression....the Republic gradually becoming the Empire, the innocent gradually becoming corrupt, Threepio gradually becoming gold...so when we get to the OT, we understand why and how the galaxy is the way it is, the people are the way they are, but it doesn't detract from the images we grew up with, it just expands on them.

Yes, you are supposed to hate Vader...but he IS a bad guy after all...we hate Vader in that we want the good guys to win, but we love him in that he's just so damn cool. If anything the PT just offers up more cool dark side moments for the bad guys.