An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for Darth Vader

I am the opposite in my views to the thread starter.

It really bothers me when people say that Vader was not over rated.

How many limbs can a man lose? If the EU is to be believed, he loses even more!

And no, he should NOT have been more powerful. After all, he fought Obi Wan, and was left a complete wreck.

If anything, you may say that he was very LUCKY to be alive.

 

Does this really matter? Even without any limbs, Vaders torso alone probably has more volume / weight than a complete Yoda. I don't know, how those crazy midichorian counts work - are they counted in terms items per whole body or items per kilos of body weight? If the latter is fact and Anakins midichlorian count is higher than Yodas and his mass - even in reduced form - is still bigger than Yodas, he might still easily be stronger than Yoda. Too bad, we don't know Palpys midichlorian count and body weight.

By the way, some other questions that come to my mind in this context:
1. Why do Jedi effectively eliminate the possibility to produce stronger Jedi genereation after generation - by condemning them to celibacy? Jedi having children with each other could strongly increase the powers of the next generation.

2. The rule of two was invented after the sith nearly erased themself by uncontrolled fighting. Does that really solve the problem? As we can see in the movies the still fight each other - and the narrow limit always keeps them cloes to extinction. That in my opinion greatly increases the probability of both sith perishing. Even if they don't FIGHT, there still could be accidents.

3. Why does Palpy rely on apprentices? If he's so powerful, he should father his own children or get himself cloned to get a really powerful succesor. Sith are allowed to have sex. Aren't they?

As far as I can tell, both rules established in the PT effectively keep both groups from really reaching the limits of their possible powers. Is that clever??? Where those rules really necessary? I'd say, the films would work as effectively, if those rules would NOT have been established. What do you think?

 

Sorry, double post.

 

Jedi dynasties are a bad thing.

 

Sounds great. But why is that so?
The Skywalker/Solo clan (as founders and mentors of the new breed of Jedi) seems to do quite well after Ep. VI - if you rely on EU sources... And if they are true Jedi the should be immune to the negative habits and options of power missuse of 'normal' dynasties.
No, please don't answer that one. I am just teasing and pushing things a little bit as a hint, that maybe not everything in the GFFA should be taken too seriously and verbatim.

 

Well, I don't know, I was just quoting Vergere and it seems to be the thought behind the OJO's celibacy. And they may have been right, because the Old Jedi Order was flawed - that's the entire point of the PT.

 

That's the point of the PT, you are completely right. But sadly, although THAT IS the REASON for making the PT, we still don't really get it, what exactly went wrong - or what Lucas wants to tell us with that storie. Where and why did the Jedi screw it? That's why we're discussing and discussing and still don't get the grip.
In the OT it seems like those great and morally perfect Jedi were tricked and failed - ALTHOUGH they did everything right. They are the good guys. No discussion about that. Tragic heros and role modells for everyone. That's why we people loved and admired them.
That in mind, what does Lucas want to tell us in the PT, by making Jedi Anakins love for his mother and for his girlfriend the REASON for his downfall? Does he want to tell us, loving someone is a bad thing? Same with the other Jedi - apart from maybe beeing a bit confused and lazy (as many of us are), I think, they did nothing bad or wrong. I can't really blame them. So why are they punished that way? At the same time he nevertheless presents them as the cool action heroes. What does he want from us viewers? Should we love or hate them? I am confused...

 

IMO Vader was a broken man

Cinema had never seen such a villian. His enterance in ANH is breath-taking !! you are just getting use to the small(ish), white, face-less stormtrooper then comes Vader - an awesome sight, soul-less in appearance, dressed head to toe in black to contrast the stormtroopers and the interia of the ship it draws your eyes directly to him. From that moment you are hooked - and as a child terrified that feeling has always stuck with me.

But if you get over his first scene, you pick up that Vader isn't as feared by others, Leia tells Tarkin she wasn't surprised to see him "holding Vader leash" & he is openly mocked for his "sorcerous ways"

The next 2 films show a man who is battling within himself he "must obey his master" but he can't bring himself to kill his son - someone with Vader's powers could easily of taken out Luke in either ESB or ROTJ

For me the PT shows how important, controlling & evil Palpatine is - he is without doubt the most under-rated character in the whole saga, and I'm sure if Lucas remade the OT Palpatine would pay a much larger part.

Therefore I don't think it's a lack repect for Vader, just the realisation that Vader was a puppet for Palpatine - that's the way I see it

 

Well, my point was that it shows that he was not a very good fighter.

 

I got that - but based on what? Based on the lack of living tissue or based on the fact, that it's a prostetic? If the latter, think about that: relatet to the Paralympics I heared the word 'technodoping' meaning that prostetics nowadays can be build so sophisticated for running or jumping, that in fact the remaining leg might be the slower one.
Grievous is almost at par with force-powered Jedi, so as far as Lightsaberfighting is concernet, robot arms / legs and prostetics don't seem to be that much of a problem. I've already adressed the living tissue matter somewhere above.

 

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

My point was that if Vader was so powerful, he wouldn't have lost so many limbs in the first place!

 

Disagreed. He lost his limbs because he was stupid as a young man and arrogantly believed he could defeat Dooku (and Obi-Wan). Like most people, he became wiser as he got older.

 

Remember though, love eventually saves Anakin, the love for his son.

I thought Lucas was saying that love isn't a bad thing, attachment is. Anakin's problem was that he couldn't let go. I thought that was made clear in his conversation with Yoda.

I thought the idea was that with only two, they could operate more easily from the shadows, hidden from the Jedi. The rule of two itself states "Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody power, the other to crave it.". So by the time the apprentice is powerful enough to overthrow their master, he or she would have an apprentice of their own.

Are you sure you read it? Because the book I read showed Roan Shryne as a highly capable Jedi Master. He nicks Vader's arm but it's only a glancing blow that doesn't even bother him. Shryne does go for Vader's legs but Vader leaps out of the way. And in the end, Vader beats him without using his lightsaber.

You also notice at the begining, Vader outduels and kills Jedi Master Bol Chatak. This is right after a chapter where he moans about how restrictive the suit is. Vader spends the whole novel selling himself short because his immolation on Mustafar curtailed his plans to overthrow Palpatine. He was still a match for any Jedi.

The suit made him stronger in many ways because it humbled him. Vader would never repeat the mistake of his fight with Obi-Wan on Mustafar, as we see in ROTJ.

 

I think AnakinSucks is confused. He is confusing power with stupidity. You can be the most powerful Jedi in the universe and if your judgement is off, you can still get hurt. Anakin Skywalker could be characterized as arrogant, rash, flashy and instictive. Darth Vader is just the opposite. Vader is confident and calculating. After being humbled on Mustafar, he grew up and became smarter. He is the ulimate tactian now. As for the Dark Lord novel, I am in agreement with Darth_Cerus. I don't believe AnakinSucks read the book. Vader doesn't lose anymore limbs against Roan Shryne. Also, Shryne is shown as a powerful and capable master. There was something in the book that said he and obiwan were considered to be in the 'new guard' which were a group of Masters that were sitting on the council or sometime soon would be able to sit on the council. So Shryne is definately one of the great Jedi in the order during that time. That's pretty impressive for Vader to destroy him after Vader says in the book that he has to call on the Force to walk around.

 

I think people still regard Vader as powerful, but even in ROTJ this changed, because in the first two movies we didn't see Vader really answering to anyone, or having any feelings. Vader was extremely powerful, but not what he could have been, maybe not what he was even in ROTS. Lucas said he ended up about as powerful as Dooku or Maul. In terms of the OT there was no one except the Emporer on his level, until Luke matured.

 

You made some good points. But I never really got that one. If attachement is a bad thing - then what exactly should Anakin have done in II in the tusken camp? Say, 'Sorry mum, I love you and I'd really like to help you, but I don't want to be attached, that's a bad thing. So good by, rest in peace...' - or to avoid any danger of getting attached, never even go there???
If you love someone and that one is about to die - you have to try to help them and save their life. That's not attachemnt, that's LOVE. If Lucas sees a difference there and the one is good and the other is bad, maybe Lucas is the one who has to learn something here. If one of his children got sick and needed one of his kidneys, what would he say? Nah, sorry, I don't wanna get attached???

 

I agree with you that Vader is becoming less and less respected. On some web site (I can't remember which) Darth Vader was an equal to Darth Sidious. If you read ROTS, in the beginning Sidious even admits himself that Anakin could be even more powerful than him (Palpatine). If not people should admire him because he had no lungs, a charred voice box, 1 1/2 limbs, and he still became one of the most powerfull sith lords of all time. If that is not overcoming challenges I don't know what is.

 

Well that's the flaw of Jedi Order, isn't it? To paraphrase Yoda "That is why they fail".

 

Darth Vader is Star Wars. What's all this talk about not respecting him. Besided, respecting fictional characters is kind of, well, do I even have to say it?

 

Well?

A stupid fighter is a bad fighter!

Mentality is part of the make up of a fighter.

And he managed to lose another limb to his son who barely had half a training session under his belt.

His son also hit him in the first battle and his armour saved him.

 

He certainly got his arm sliced up and Roan sliced at his legs only to have his saber bounce off the armour.

I will check though.

 

I agree w/ you on most of that, except one thing- he didn't have any limbs... well he had some stubs, but the only thing he had left after the battle w/ Obi-wan was one arm which was already machine due to the battle w/ Dooku.

 

Successfully balancing love without giving into excessive attachment wouldn't necessarily mean leaving his mother die. It would, however, mean not killing Tuskens afterwards. Similarly, healthy love for one's spouse means respecting the person's values enough not to do things that are clearly against their wishes in order to keep them alive. Anakin knew slaughtering children was the last thing Padme would ever want him to do in her name, but he didn't care. He was too interested in hanging onto her as a trophy wife to think about her feelings. Besides, a rational person would probably be aware of the fact that a pregnant woman might not want to entrust her baby to someone who makes a habit of decapitating small children.

You're switching up the arguments. First you claimed he wasn't powerful, and now you're claiming he's not a good fighter. You have to make up your mind about precisely which way you want to bash the character.

I think you're also neglecting to distinguish between younger Vader and older Vader.

 

Put it this way, I think that power is useless if it means losing a limb or two every time you get into a scuffle.

But if you want to seperate, I still do not see anything outstanding about Vader.

 

Vader's awesome. That's what's outstanding about him. There's no greater villian in movie history. Perhaps you prefer... Khan?