An Ever Growing Problem: The Lack of Respect for Darth Vader

Malikail, I can't agree with you on this. If all you see in PT Anakin/Vader is that he is a whiny, snivling punk, that is your fault. I agree, the protrayl of Anakin in AOTC is not great. He is a teenager and I didn't enjoy watching him like that. But the Anakin/Vader we see in ROTS is different. ROTS Anakin is a Jedi hero of galactic proportions. A real tradegdy as he is consumed by his own fears. And part of that tradedy is Anakin not been able to realize he power potential. Nothing Lucas could come up with in the PT is going to trump the mystery of what happened to Vader while watching the OT. When I first saw the PT, I was surprised the way Lucas decided to protray Anakin, him growing up as a slave, his pettyness and immaturity shown in ATOC. But then it all made sense to me in ROTS, Anakin had cooping issues and they were going to get exploited. I thought Hayden Christensen was great in ROTS but struggled in AOTC (but what actor didn't in that film?) I think Lucas did the best job he could. If it had been me, I would have shown Anakin slightly older and him as an Obiwan type Jedi. But I don't know how believable it would have been that he had fallen to the dark side. But those are just my thoughts.

 

Ah Ram Red, the King or Queen of violating the #1 rule of TFN in almost every post, and never gets warned or banned as you constantly psychoanalyze or always talk for the fan that you hate so much, instead of just giving your opinion like everyone else does on this site. But then again, if you are not warned or banned, why not keep doing it?

As for a complex character in the PT, isn't that the reason we all wanted to see the PT movies? The problem is he is not that complex or that compelling when it is all said and done.

Just because you make 3 movies that lead into Episode IV, and they have the names Episode I, II, and III on it, doesn't make it a law that Darth Vader is this complex three dimensional character, you have to actually write a compelling story.

Watch the Godfather II, if you want a compelling backstory about a character from a previous movie. Coppola was able to achieve that in one movie, through flashbacks, and for me IMO, they are the most compelling parts of the movie.

 

I can't find GL's quote on-line--watch the films with commentary, watch the documentaries that come with the DVDs; you'll find it--but this kinna gets the job done:

"During an interview at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch in Marin, Christensen calls that pivotal scene "grueling, but afterward, when they call cut and you go in to have the prosthetics taken off, you feel fulfilled. It's amazing how emotionally involved you are in this film, watching the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan fall apart, watching them fight and then that end result. It's tragic. As Anakin makes that final transition into Darth Vader, it informs the original trilogy and changes the character. He becomes a much more pathetic figure."

Similarly, GL explains that Darth Vader has lost much of what he once was, which is why the fight between him and Ben Kenobi is so slow: it's between and old man and a half-man, half-machine.

It doesn't matter how much he studies; Vader is a pale shadow of his former self.

 

This is fair and i guess i should have been more clear of the context i wanted to speak in of Anakin.

We caught a glimps of the Jedi Anakin was and i agree with you that at the time the opening credits ran Anakin was different from what i describe above.

the problem is that we don't get to see a full film of "The Heroic Jedi, Anakin Skywalker".

In fact the only time that Anakin ever makes even a cameo it's to murder Dooku and begin his descent into darkness, thus tarnishing the character.

I go back and forth on AotC, it's a really good story and i love the way it looks but it's terribly over edited and it seems to me often as if it lost a lot of what was supposed to be character development for Anakin on the cutting room floor.

to me it would have made for a much more interesting Darth Vader of the OT if Anakin had been a jedi more like Kenobi and then fallen to the dark side.

i agree completely he should have been older, more experienced and more heroic as depicted on film.

too much it seemed at times that he was carrying the seeds in him that turn him into darth vader and i think it seriously hurts his complexity as a character.

Maybe lucas was going for 'tragicly flawed', if so maybe he succeeded and i just don't see it.

Truly i think the PT did do a lot to hurt Vader's image but far more i think it's the explanations offered for ANH that hurt Vader.

We should just look past the way the film is set and the duel, Vader is not a weak cripple and he's not Tarkin's 'punk *****'.

it doesn't need explaining, anyone who watches it becomes aware quickly that Vader took on a life of his own after ANH and the story changed in the way it's set.

trying to explain it in universe was imo a mistake and shouldn't have happened.

 

I do not agree with your reasoning. Christensen's quote says he is pathetic, and it never specifically states that Vader is pathetic because he lost power. I'm inclinded to believe that Christensen is refering to Vader allowing his mind to be twisted and becoming evil for no reason, as he ends of choking his wife and losing everything. And then you point out that little quote about the ANH duel. God, Lucas is a moron. I think your confusing the flashy skills of Anakin Skywalker as a loss of power just because suited Vader can't backflip everywhere. Just because he is less flashly doesn't equal loss of power.

I think AOTC was the wrong way to go with Anakin's character. Anakin Skywalker was 20, mentored by Obiwan Kenobi and the rest of the Jedi and he just is so the average young teenager. He should have been greater than that. Vader growing up as a slave was intriguring because he still seemed to be a nice little boy, but feelings may have developed that he shoved deep inside him and could come out at certain times. Maybe ROTS should have been AOTC. Anakin and Obiwan should def have been closer. But, if Anakin had been an Obiwan type Jedi, how could he have fallen? As for Lucas running is mouth about ANH, one could l

 

when i say kenobi type jedi i only mean fully grown and relatively level headed.

I would not have wanted to see Anakin be, as i consider Kenobi to be, the very picture of what a jedi following the code should be.

I like that even the Jedi Anakin we see at the begining of RotS is a bit of a maverick as showin when they are in their fighters still and he wants to help the clones and does help Kenobi.

Just thought i'd clairify what i meant since as you pointed out, if Anakin had been as much the ideal Jedi as Kenobi was "how could he have fallen?".

You're right about that.

 

I'm gonna step in and agree with RocketGirl. Shocking!Anyway, GL says similar things in that big Rolling Stone Magazine article interview around the time of EPIII's release.

 

Not the point.

You think the Jedi do backflips and everything just with the power of their physical form? Hell, no...there's a reason it's called "Force-jump".

 

Then what is? Why use a noncanonical Hayden Christensen quote if it doesn't serve your arguement?

You misunderstood me. Your echoing my point. I am saying Vader got stronger than he was in ROTS. I'm accusing you of thinking OT Vader is weak because he doesn't backflip everywhere and show off flashy lightsaber skills.

 

First of all, it does serve my argument, you just focussed on the wrong part of it and took it the wrong way.

Second of all, because I couldn't find the quote I wanted online, which is GL's commentary about the ANH duel.

I didn't misunderstand you at all; I'm saying that the fact that the Jedi in the PT use the Force to accomplish that flashiness, and the fact that Vader doesn't use it in the OT shows that he is weaker...or he'd be doing all of that. He appears to have lost the ability since the PT, thus showing his weakness.

Coupled with the GL quotes about him being a more pathetic creature in the OT commentary...well, you do the math!

Show me how Vader is stronger in the OT. Cuz I'm not seeing it. Cite specific examples form the films, please.

 

i completely dissagree with your assertion that "flashyness" = power.

because Kenobi twirls his saber he's powerful? actually it looked stupid and has nothing to do with power.

Vader and Yoda do more with telekinesis in the OT than anyone in the PT except Sidious does.

Truly the force, at the time of the OT was not supposed to be an over the top super power like it became for the PT.

I would not want this changed, to me the problem is with the PT and the use of the force needs to be toned down considerably there, it borders on stupidly ridiculous.

 

sorry for the double post it's been too long to edit but i wanted to add this thought:

The single greatest display of force power with the possible exception of the force ghost is by Vader in the OT.

Nothing anyone does in the PT equals force choking someone who is on a different star destroyer, the distance involved is stagering and display of power simply awesome when Vader chokes Ozel.

 

Twirling your saber has nothing to do with it and I never said it did. I'm talking about the ability to jump higher than your muscles can account for, being able to swing your saber faster in combat, being able to knock people on their butts with a Force-push...not looking fancy. Don't twist my words.

Yoda does plenty in the PT with telekinesis, as does Dooku.

And that's not even the point: Yoda is still powerful, but Vader does nothing that's as impressive as what we see in the PT.

So you're saying that the issue is all off-screen, on the production side. Well, that's too bad; Force powers are what they are in canon, on-screen sources, so you're just going to have to cope.

And the Force, as used in the OT, has been explained as being used more or less only by the elderly or the crippled, which is why it's so toned down. Those are facts you're going to have to get realistic about.

 

First of all, Vader can't showcase the flashly skills of Anakin Skywalker because of the damn suit. If you read EU it goes it the fact of how he had to change his lightsaber style and even the grip on the lightsaber. It's not because he has regressed since the PT. He has gotten stronger. On Bespin Vader ripped things off the wall and threw them at Luke. As Malikail pointed out ealier Force choking someone on another star destroyer is also something he didn't do in the PT. So I think both of those things Vader did in the OT are more impressive than anything he did it the PT. Also, if you watch the Bespin duel, Vader look downright graceful with his lightsaber at some points. Maybe not flashy, but definately graceful. He also uses the Force to glide down the steps onto Luke Skywalker's face before he gets out of the way. So Vader shows better Force powers in the OT than the PT. Just use your common sense, Vader had no dark side training at the end of ROTS, give Sidious some credit that he still teach Vader a few things.

 

I think what i'm really saying is that the OT is better off for not having any idiotic over the top "hulk jumps" like Anakin pulls off in the duel with Kenobi.

I think that things like that which are totally unbelievable and frankly look stuipid on film break the audience out of the story and leave them shaking their head in the theater, that's the effect this had on me.

you have not addressed my point that when Vader chokes Ozzel on another star destroyer it is a far greater display of power over a far greater distance than anything anyone in the PT does.

Vader showed at that moment that he's past the power threashold of the PT jedi, mace and yoda included, none showed that kind of power.

 

Not to mention force-thowing all that stuff at Luke. That was BAD!

 

Well, that's enough of that; there's no reason to read any further. The EU doesn't matter; it's not canon. Only the films are canon. This is not the EU forum. An EU argument means nothing.

 

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but we have a canon policy about this, RocketGirl. Check it out in our Rules/Thread Index sticky.

 

A) I'm not gonna change my point of view, regardless of the rules of the forum.
B) I 'm not the sort of person who just takes someone's word for something without evidence or proof.
C) I really don't like the vast majority of the EU, so I'm not about to go reading it just to make sure someone isn't pulling a fast one by citing something I haven't read.
D) George Lucas has contradicted the EU before and vice-versa, so trusting it doesn't exactly make the hugest amount of sense.
E) I'm much more interested in George Lucas's opinion of the Saga than in that of a licensed author whose ideas may or may not coincide with Lucas's and whose work Lucas may or may not have fully read/edited.

That said, I don't see why I should be forced to consider an EU-based response when, frankly, i don't consider it valid.

 

I had to laugh at you, RocketGirl. If you had just finish reading the sentence, all I mention about the EU is that it specifically states Vader changed his lightsaber style( which is pretty obvious in the movies). After mentioning that little tid bit of info, I jumped back into talking about the movies. If you read the entire post, the rest of it was about the movies. I made a lot of points (from the movies) that contradicted your beliefs. I actually think you probably read the entire post, had no come back and then pretended that you didn't read it.

 

Good for you. Think what you like. Fact of the matter is if someone brings up the EU, I shut them out.

Never mind the fact that George Lucas himself contradicts you in the director commentary. If you're not going to take his word for it, there's nothing to discuss.

 

Feel free not to read any EU, but maybe you should read our Canon Policy. Especially this part here:

Simply ignore EU statements if you don't like them.
Which should get the thread back on topic right about...

...now.

 

Vader's totally more powerful in Episodes 4-6. He's had way more dark side training. How can anyone not see this?

Respect him already, people!
Same with Boba Fett!

Zing!

 

I agree, the protrayl of Anakin in AOTC is not great. He is a teenager and I didn't enjoy watching him like that.

That is because Anakin was a 19 year-old boy with his own set of emotional problems. It didn't bother me at all. I wonder why people had expected him to be different. In his own way, Obi-Wan was just as immature in TPM . . . and he was 25 at the time.


I think AOTC was the wrong way to go with Anakin's character. Anakin Skywalker was 20, mentored by Obiwan Kenobi and the rest of the Jedi and he just is so the average young teenager. He should have been greater than that.

Why? You sound as if you wanted Anakin to be perfect. Why would you expect him to be "greater than that" at age 19/20? Yes, he had a great deal of power, but he wasn't old or mature enough to utilize his full potential. At least not yet. Nor was he emotionally mature at the time. Why is that so hard to accept? Luke wasn't really emotionally mature until he reached the age of 23.

Is it possible that when it came to the PT, many fans had become victims of their own expectations of what the story and characters should have been?

 

Exactly. And that gets to the heart of the whole thing-- our expectations. Some people don't like when their expectations are challenged; I happen to enjoy the experience and think it's a legitimate way of opening up people's eyes to the fact that the world isn't always what we expect. The Jedi have flaws, Anakin (obviously) has flaws, but they also have strength. Anakin is simultaneously seriously emotionally troubled and a very passionate, very capable and heroic young man. In fact, he's so capable that the only thing that can bring him down is weakness from within, and it does. I think that having an older Anakin who kicked even more behind would make his turning far harder to believe, and, incidentally, make the character of Darth Vader even weaker. Anakin being angry, passionate, young-- and, of course, with the incredible power he posesses-- makes him the perfect target for a Sith apprentice for Palpatine. He's got to be a natural at channeling the Dark Side, and Palps is grinning to the sky when he sees the destruction the newborn suited Vader can wreak on a room. But passion works both ways, so Luke can bring Anakin back. Voila, it all fits.