PT Anakin Deserved More Respect From The Jedi Council

Even though the OT doesn't support that idea in any way.

 

Qui-Gon is presented as a throwback to an earlier breed of Jedi that sort of resembles that conception--though not entirely. He's kind of a chilled-out Man with No Name type, especially in the way he rolls into a backwater desert town wearing a poncho and takes justice into his own hands with Watto. But even Qui-Gon has certain ethical lines he won't cross, and he won't explicitly disobey the Council, instead preferring to creatively reinterpret his mandates (much like a certain later Jedi Knight).

But the point is that the wandering, nomad-vigilante conception of the Jedi that some people apparently got stuck on wouldn't have worked for a story that needed to be about the triumphs and failures of the Jedi as an institution. It would have been incoherent and unwieldy. It made far more sense to present the Jedi Order as something akin to an organized religion which had become somewhat over-institutionalized and rigid, and then to present certain individual Jedi, like Qui-Gon and Anakin, as more free-thinking, spiritual-but-not-religious types who run into conflict with the larger Order because of their personalities. Agree or disagree with them, there are coherent reasons for why Lucas made the decisions he did, though many people refuse to back off their grudges for even a single moment to think and to acknowledge that.

 

I'd say it wouldn't have worked from the moment they were introduced as the official corps of peace and justice of a certain galactic government, which is how the Jedi were described as from the very beginning in the OT. The institution in and on itself was never what the story was about in the PT.

 

They were introduced as an order but the nature and structure of that order was never established. A bunch of fans got it into their heads for some reason that they were a loose association of wandering monks operating in the shadows as a sort of secret society. I have no idea where that idea ever came from. They certainly could have been such an organization, but nothing ever remotely implied that they were.

 

I was arguing that being the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic prevents them from being a group of vigilante, wandering monks without any rules or structure.

 

Yeah, they just knew something had happened to Anakin, but not exactly WHAT.

 

Yoda may have suspected that something more happened to Anakin besides being in "terrible pain". Yoda heard a lot of things through the force from the sand people screaming to the ghost of Qui-Gon Jinn begging Anakin to stop. Both Revenge of the Sith and the Clone Wars cartoon have established that Yoda had further contact with Qui-Gon so he would've learned from him that Anakin massacred the sand people after his mom died.

 

But Windu tries to kill an unarmed prisoner later in the movie.

 

Wow way to make a complete strawman out of my argument, instead of adding to the discussion.

 

Sometimes people have an incorrect perception of a film's quality.

Also, there's an edit function for a reason. Use it.

 

Yoda still didn't know in TCW. He isn't told about that until later. Otherwise, Anakin would have been dealt with sooner, rather than later.

Right. Which is another tipping point in turning on him.

 

Not the same. Dooku was a separatist prisoner, and he had no power in the republic courts and the senate. Palpatine was the chancellor of the republic, he had the power of the senate and the courts, they couldn't even arrest him even if they wanted to. That was the only choice they had.

 

I would have but my laptop doesn't load it when I try to. Sorry youre miffed by that.

 

Mace only makes that conclusion after Palpatine goaded him into doing it. When he does this, this is where went from doing the right thing to doing the wrong thing.

 

darth-sinister Yep Mace played right into Sidious' trap.

Mace seemed to give in a little to the dark side there. Vapaad is a tricky tactic to use, and it seemed Mace let the dark side catch him in that moment

 

There's no Vapaad. And Sidious was not a prisoner nor unarmed.

 

That was actually not entirely about you, but about the larger body of several thousand posts functionally identical to your own across probably every SW discussion forum ever. Which, having written the long and patient essay you seem to be expecting from me hundreds of times already to no effect, I decided to answer by way of razzing the whole argument a little bit this time. Because I think it is a silly argument.

Is that addition enough for you, or is there a minimum paragraph count to qualify?

 

He very much was unarmed, and presumed by Mace to be physically helpless in that moment. That's the entire reason his excuse to Anakin is that Palpatine wields too much political power, and not that Palpatine is physically dangerous.

The scene was very specifically written that way for a reason.

 

Was Anakin's reaction rather childish? Yes, it was. But, beyond that, both sides were more using him as a tool, than respecting him as a person.

First, Palpatine compliments Ani and decides to appoint him as his rep to the Council. Sure, it's all part of his plans against the Jedi, but he says Ani's earned it and Ani believes him. It's unprecedented, maybe even improper, but the Jedi serve the Senate and Palpatine's in charge of the Senate. So, what's pretty much a "Take that!" from Palpatine looks reasonable.
In response, the Jedi are appalled. But, they don't simply refuse Palpatine's order, or even register a protest. They use Ani to deliver their own "Take that!" First, rather than quietly tell Ani the problem and break the news to him gently, they bring him before the assembled Council and, with no warning, tell him he's in, but in name only. He basically gets a chair, and nothing else. When he protests, Mace cuts him off and tells him to sit down and shut up. Then, they stick an unhappy Kenobi with giving Ani the job of spying on Palpatine, which is both improper and probably illegal.
Ani goes to Palpatine, who spots the situation pretty quickly. But, rather than belittle Ani, he seems understanding and forgiving. And he cleverly sets up the situation where, even if he's the bad guy, he looks far more reasonable and understanding than the Jedi. And the Jedi, by seeming to disrespect Ani, drive him further away. Which is what Palpatine intended, and the Jedi fell for it completely.

The Jedi were right in denying him the title of Master. But by needlessly belittling him, then cynically using him as a spy, they just make Palpatine's task easier.

 

my thoughts are on par with Kenneth Morgan

 

We'll probably never come to agreement on Anakin - we've been at it a good long time now!

How much of what a person is can be attributed to what "has happened to them", and how much can be attributed to personal choice, and "inherent" predispositions? People have argued about that forever. And the movies don't...perhaps CAN'T ...really give us enough to answer that. Shoot, we can't entirely answer that for real people, where we can learn a lot more than we can possibly learn about Anakin in the course of the SW movies. Just yesterday, I heard a bit about Charles Manson's upbringing. Horrible. Does that excuse what he did, what he became? No, at least, not IMHO. But ... you have to say.... it was going to be a challenge for him to turn out "normal" in any sense. Just a recent example of a debate and discussion as old as any, about why we are the way we are.

For what it's worth, while I don't for a moment suggest that Anakin had an easy path, I am of the opinion that he bears a LOT of responsibility. Mainly, I am bothered by his fundamental dishonesty, and although this may be shallow, put off by his me-me-me petulance and insecurity. Watching the movies, it's easy to forget that Anakin has choices, all along. He could SHARE his challenges, failings, with Obi Wan or Yoda, but chooses to conceal them. He COULD have a life with Padme - but not while retaining his power and status as a Jedi- so he pursues a dishonest course. He KNOWS the things he is doing, feeling, are dangerous -- that the movies do make clear -- but because he fears to lose his status as a Jedi, he hides them. And I think fear, too, motivates his betrayal of the Jedi - I have always felt that Anakin fears the pain of losing Padme, so much, that THAT is what fuels him. Please note, that is ultimately a selfish act - he is driven by fear of what HE would feel if she should die, and is thus willing to do things that would horrify her, terrify her, sicken her...to ultimately spare HIMSELF. It's the very definition of how undue attachment, excessive attachment, inability to let go CAN lead to evil.

Whatever you may think of how the Jedi are portrayed, Anakin pretty much proves out all of their basic arguments. His attachment and fear DO lead to suffering. A lot of suffering. For himself, for his friends, and for billions and billions murdered by the Emperor/Empire, and opressed by them.

Not posting this to troll those of you who are inclined to put more responsibility on the Jedi. I get it - other interpretations are possible and as I said at the start, and meant, sincerely .... it's an age old argument. Why are we the people we end up being? I just am less inclined to let Anakin "off the hook" than some.

 

How did Mace die?

He declared him to have lost and that he was under arrest. Then he blasted him with lightning, thereby proving that he wasn't unarmed at all.

Mace decides to kill him and Anakin argues that he must stand trial. Having political power doesn't make him not "physically dangerous".

The scene was written as an impasse on purpose, yes. Any decision has its consequences.

 

You mean the part he says I was right the Jedi are taking over? He isn't even accepting his crimes and blames the Jedi there, he is still denying it. I don't see what could Mace do in that situation, Sidious already killed 3 of the Jedi in that duel, and he is still not yielding and shooting Force lightning when he could. Mace had to do something about it.

It's a completely different situation than Dooku's execution. No way Mace would kill Dooku when Dooku's arms sliced off and when he was still a separatist which means Windu could easily imprison him. With Sidious, the things were completely different in both the political and the moral structure.

 

YODA: "No different. Only in your mind."

Right, but we're talking about Anakin's point of view. From his view, Palpatine claimed to be old and weak, unable to defend himself anymore. His Lightsaber is gone. As it looks, Mace is in the wrong here. Which Lucas even said he was.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

Mace could have still taken him alive by slicing his hands off. He didn't and that re-enforced the notion that the Jedi would kill a Sith Lord, rather than try to arrest them, or try to rehabilitate them. And in turn it gives Anakin another reason to join Palpatine, because it shows that Palpatine was right, the Jedi are no different from the Sith.