PT Anakin should not have killed the younglings

Whether Palpatine adds do you understand to the end of his statement wasn’t the main point. I’m assuming that was taken from the shooting script.

The main point is that Palpatine tells him to kill the Jedi to make himself stronger and Anakin says he understands.

 

yes I made the same point earlier in the thread.

 

Hesitate, maybe. Be in conlfict is more what I see in the movie and I think that shows that he doesn't want to. But he does it anyway, because he was ordered to not hesitate and show no mercy. To do either of what you suggest could be those things. Here's the facts of the situation:

Anakin is told that to not hesitate and show no mercy, and that only then will he be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme. So, he does that, because that's what he thinks he has to do to save Padme.

 

Exactly. This isn't rocket science. Anakin has succumbed to the dark side because he is a weak, greedy and self-centered person. Only at the end of the slaughter, does he stop to question himself. If he does so before then, she's dead.

 

Anakin, despite being a slave, was a generous, good-natured child who was always able to make the most of what he had, thanks to his mother who was his stable, loving center amidst the unpredictability of their slave's life. But after arriving on Coruscant, he now had a mentor who was secretly a Sith Lord, skilled at manipulation. In Episode I we saw that besides being gifted in the Force, Anakin was basically like most other kids: lofty ambitions ("I wanna be the first one to see 'em all!"), strong sense of identity (a person, not just a slave), not keen on change, and a belief that Jedi can do whatever they want. However, in the hands of Palpatine, these natural, healthy traits could be molded and shaped into a sense of self-righteousness and entitlement.

Fast forward ten years to Episode II, and Anakin is struggling with issues of dissatisfaction, resentment and his attachments have only grown, rather than subsided, as per the Jedi way. He's a regular person wanting to be a Jedi and thus conflicted between the two irreconcilable worlds, or more specifically, he wants the best of both. He wants to cling to his attachments but doesn't want to deal with the pain and fear that can come with that. So when he starts having disturbing dreams of his mother in pain, his worst fears are triggered, but his Jedi responsibilities prevent him from attending to the situation. He therefore avoids his uncomfortable feelings by distracting himself with his fixation on Padmé all the more.

Later, when faced with the devastating loss of his mother, his resentments at never being allowed to visit her, at being held back from rescuing her in time and 'not being allowed to be powerful enough to save her', combined with all of his buried anxieties and untempered fear, hate and anger, come erupting out and send him into a fight-or-flight emotional hijacking. To numb his burning pain and guilt, he decides then and there, on the spur of the moment, to avenge his mother's death by killing the Tuskens -- essentially blaming them for the cause of his pain. By acting on his destructive emotions he feels a surge of power, a dark power. And justifying the retaliation as he begins it reinforces his self-righteousness and rage which snowballs until he finds he has slaughtered the entire Tusken camp. It was a purely emotion-driven impulse, and he had nothing to gain from it but a sense of vengeance and disproportionate vigilante justice.

However there was something else that he did inadvertently gain from the experience, that rush of dark strength, spurred by reacting on his negative emotions, roused within him a deeper craving for power, the ultimate power; the ability to cheat death. His own natural ambitious drive is now being corrupted into a greedy resolve based in his budding selfishness and a longing for control. This is when he vows to himself, Padmé and upon his mother's grave to find it. Unwilling to face this kind of pain and loss again, this is his own greed and stubbornness focusing his motivations; fueled by his taste of dark power. He executed innocent people out of revenge and rationalized it as their comeuppance. This was the big gateway to the warping of his mind and his start towards a hellbent quest for power. Killing just some men and stopping at the innocents may not have been enough for that to happen.

It would seem the darker the deed, the bigger the power surge. And the bigger the power surge, the stronger the craving for more.

Yes, the slaughter is a big, sudden shock, but it's also a culmination of what's been brewing for years in his constitution, which is being shaped by all his surroundings and influences, and his choices therein. It appears Anakin's gradual and subtle corruption which led to this point lay in being groomed and cultivated for years by Palpatine, and in avoiding his uncomfortable emotions, rather than dealing with them, (which may be tied together to a degree).

This is an impactful scene where the main character, with the potential for so much good, has done something reprehensible. And though relatively understandable on some levels, definitely wrong. After committing such an atrocity, is he good or evil? A hero or a villain? Again, I'd say he's a person and his name is Anakin. He's a good-hearted, well-meaning person with great potential that did a bad thing, yet he should not be written off. You're still hoping he can reform, mature, take the right path, learn from his mistakes and conquer his demons and conquer the Sith. Yes, he crossed a line and should confess, but he still deserves the chance to prevent the horror of a Sith Empire.

Writing him off after the Tusken massacre is a bit like Yoda and Obi-Wan writing him off in the OT -- as opposed to Luke and Padmé's appraisal of him. In Episode I we saw how much Padmé and Anakin care for each other. In the aftermath of the Tusken massacre, during Anakin's confession, Padmé found herself in a bit of a dilemma. Yes, Anakin did something horrible, and yeah, he should come clean about it, but along side that he is also undergoing immense inner suffering. Does he need reprimanding from her in that moment, or comforting? He knows he what he did was wrong, so does he need judgment, or a friend to lean on, and not to be run away from? It's not her responsibility to tell him he was wrong or to make him confess, at least not in that moment.

When Anakin left his mother and was all alone, Padmé made him feel comforted and cared for. And we can see on Padmé's face when Anakin walks in holding his dead mother that she again plans to comfort and console him no matter what happened; she's not going to change her tune. During the confession, Padmé is balancing her reaction. Yes, she was shocked at what he confessed, but still sees that the good in him outweighs the bad, and that he deserves compassion. Her sympathetic reaction is the reinforcement of this. Logic might say to be repelled, but she's thinking with her heart. She had faith and hope in him to ultimately do good for the galaxy, because even though he committed a terrible transgression, he still hasn't thrown away that potential. Was that her flaw? Possibly, but if so, it was also Luke's, which was the flaw, or perspective, that saved the galaxy.

"To be angry is to be human", highlights the fact that Padmé understands that, unlike the other Jedi, for better or worse Anakin is still part regular-person. And the implication is that all emotions are valid, and they, even/especially destructive ones, ought to be acknowledged and processed, but not avoided, suppressed or acted on. (Palpatine, on the other hand, in RotS, just says revenge is justified).



Sure Anakin committed a crime and it makes him a questionable person, but we're still hoping he can stop the Sith when the chance arises. Anakin has been corrupted by a hunger for power fueled by his negative emotions, but he's still a caring and heroic person. It's not about whether he's only good or only evil, he contains the potential for both, which is a foundational theme Lucas works with. Anakin has exacerbated his inner-struggle and he needs to find the balance within himself if he is to help restore balance to the galaxy. Which is what the audience is hoping for.

Yes, he should confess, but for Anakin that would mean being accountable for his attachments, which he doesn't want to do, he has no intention of releasing them. And it would likely lead to him losing his status as a Jedi. Plus, the Jedi would know the killing in anger and revenge gave him a dark power boost which is a slippery slope. But that's a risk he's willing to take to continue searching for the ultimate power. That's a large part of the tragedy, all the secrets he kept, because of his clingings, his own human nature corrupted by the desire for power to control the uncontrollable.

In Episode II, Anakin never really had the chance to mention the events of Tatooine to anyone. It's not until Episode III that we start to have the sinking realization that he's only told Palpatine about it. Has he gone completely evil? In the first act of Episode III we see him concerned for the life of his Clone soldiers, as well as Obi-Wan's, not to mention hesitating to and feeling regret about killing Dooku unarmed. So he's still a valiant man with a good heart, but conflicted, suffering from inner turmoil, wanting more while knowing he shouldn't, and loyal to his "friend" Palpatine. He's become a powerful warrior, though his emotional life hangs in the balance. Again, we're shocked to learn he hasn't been seeking help but we hope at least his choices don't come back to haunt him. Which path will he choose when it all comes down to it?

Later, after receiving news that he's going to be a father, we see him misinterpret a warning dream as a prophecy of things to come, and that he is determined to prevent it -- against both Padmé's and Yoda's advice. But at least he still sought Yoda's advice first.

And though very upset about his new assignment to spy on the Chancellor, he is able to be calmed by Padmé and resolves to follow through with his duty. So he's still mostly trying to do the right thing. Unfortunately, or ironically, it's playing right into Palpatine's trap.

Eventually, when Anakin learns that Palpatine is the Sith Lord, he finds himself in a conflict of duty, torn between destroying the Sith and saving his wife. Which is his highest priority? Well, faced with this conundrum, he tries to kind of do both by hedging his bets and deciding to rat Palpatine out to the Jedi Council, hoping they will just arrest him, so that he can still get information out of him.

Gripped by his fears and terrorized by his guilt and pain, Anakin is unable to remain at the Temple while the Jedi engage Palpatine, and rushes to intervene. Finding Mace and Sidious locked in a precarious stalemate, symbolic of the current state of the Force, it is Anakin's role to tip the balance one way or another, according to the balance within himself. Thinking selflessly, he would've helped Mace. But with his world under threat, Anakin is in a heightened state of uncertainty, not helped by the fact that Mace is bending the Jedi code by resolving to kill an unarmed man (albeit a Sith Lord). Mace is bending the rules, but it is for the greater good. Anakin sees the rule bending and in a moment of impulse, justifies his decision to help Sidious and disarm Mace, but for his own greater good, his selfishness. At the root of this rash decision, as well as when slaughtering the Tuskens, are his clingings to impermanent things.

We're shocked and disappointed that Anakin crossed another line by choosing to turn on Mace and join forces with the Sith instead of destroying them. And that he was unable to control his fears and impulses, thus not learning from his previous mistake. It's one thing to make a mistake, it's another to repeat it after having the opportunity to learn from it. But now that he has crossed this line, and become an accomplice in Palpatine's war crimes, he's trapped himself. He feels he can't return to the Jedi, because of his own experiences and the seeds of distrust sown by Palpatine. He feels his only viable option, for his own safety, and for that of his family's, is to double down and pledge himself to Sidious. Yes, he's gotten himself stuck into a dire predicament, and yet he feels he might as well make it all worth it and continue on to find the power to save his wife.

Yes, in the final edit, he cuts Mace's hand and turns primarily for Padmé, but he also wants to overthrow Sidious and restore order and control. In his mind, the siding with Sidious is merely a temporary necessity. He just needs to gain enough power to learn the secret to cheating death and to defeat Palpatine.

Anakin agrees with Sidious about "the Jedi plot to take over the Senate" so as not to rock the boat with his new allegiance. By trapping himself in this situation, Anakin is committed to whatever hope he can find in saving Pamdé, so he must go along with anything Sidious says. They both understand the "Jedi plot" is not true. But they both also understand it as Anakin's convenient "justification" to kill the Jedi, to "restore order". At the bottom they both know he's killing the Jedi because they're their enemy and to get death-cheating powers. It all still works story-wise and is even more streamlined this way. It's a preemptive strike to prevent an ongoing civil war. The Jedi "plot to take over the Republic" is an exaggerated cover Anakin will use to justify everything to Padmé, and to himself. It might be hard for her to swallow, but he's running out of options and an upset Padmé is better than a dead Padmé. Doing it for the good of the galaxy and for her is the only justification he's got for her here, and in his power delusion, he thinks it will work, or that he'll make it work.

Darth Sidious gets Anakin to join him and commit dark deeds by helping him think he's fulfilling his destiny, his search for significance and conscience, by becoming powerful enough to save lives. And also to help restore the Republic, even though we all, audience and characters, know he's really not.

(By sympathetic, I think he means how hard it would be for many people, without time to think, to resist helping loved ones despite a large cost).

And here Sidious cleverly uses his lack of knowledge to cheat death as a hook to incentivize Anakin into doing his dirty work. Sidious not having the power is what gives them both the assurance that they won't turn on one another; they have now formed a pact because they need each other to achieve a mutual goal. This bolsters Anakin's motivation for siding with him and against the Jedi, instead of trying to go it alone. On their own, they can't remain safe or obtain said power, but together they can, giving Anakin a reason to believe Sidious will keep his word. At least until they learn the power, and by then Ankin hopes to be powerful enough to defeat Palpatine. Even if Sidious did have the power, saying he doesn't is the wiser, more tactical choice.

And yes, Sidious is evil and Anakin knows this, but it is in Sidious' best interest for now that Padmé be alive while luring Anakin's help and allegiance. She is the carrot. They both have a vested interest in her life at this point. Anakin turning from Sidious would only put himself and Padmé in more danger. At this point Anakin has to protect his world, his family. This is his motivation for pledging himself to Sidious, and seeing he and Sidious need each other solidifies it. Which is why Anakin is ok with (temporarily) siding with the Dark Lord and doing his bidding.

It should be clear that Anakin is following orders primarily out of deep fear of losing Padmé and fear of the Jedi hunting him and Sidious down. Fear as well as greed. He struck out at Mace out of selfishness and is continuing on with Sidious out of selfishness. Naïveté, sure, and arrogance in thinking this would all work according to his plan, and desperation in that he's running out of time and options, but he is trying with all he's got to salvage the situation.

So as Anakin and his Troopers march on to the Jedi Temple, he is not only seeking to destroy his new enemies and "ensure peace", but also gain as much dark power as possible so as to achieve his two primary goals. And he knows from his own experience in the Tusken camp how much of a power surge killing innocents and acting on his dark side gives him. Which Anakin displayed with expertise when Dooku goaded him into doing so on The Invisible Hand. He knows just killing adults won't give him the maximum possible amount of power he could obtain. He knows he must specifically seek out the Younglings himself; the innocent, defenseless children who trust him to protect them, as a fellow Jedi. This is why he had to kill the innocent Tusken children as well, story-wise, to know what kind of power one receives in doing so, and to believe Palaptine is making a legitimate enough of a claim when he says he must, without mercy, in order to be strong enough to save Padmé.

Yeah, we know Anakin is capable of killing innocents, but we're hoping he won't willingly repeat his mistake and cross that line again, so cold, so calculatingly. It's a shock and pity because he's done this before, and shouldn't do it again.

And again, what's crucial here is that he's justifying it all. No, he hasn't suddenly lost his moral compass. He's shifting his moral compass!
That's the kicker. He's knows it's wrong but he's rationalizing his dark deeds and wrong choices, the Jedi slaughter, as the right thing to do; to "establish order", to save his family (from a perceived threat), and to eventually destroy Darth Sidious. Palpatine got Anakin to see good and bad a merely points of view, and this was the convenient blurring of the lines which emboldened Anakin's twisting of his morals which is also of course twisting his mind. He's burying his sense of empathy for his own selfishness; by doing wrong in the name of "right", he's basically intentionally warping his morals, and thus his conscience and his very soul. This is what is so scary; this jarring disconnect that is developing. He's still Anakin, but trying to convince himself he's Vader. He feels he has to force himself to overcome the struggle inside him, but not for the good side, for the bad side. And... it's working. He has to make it work, he thinks he has to undergo this drastic, sudden change, forgoing the greater good, to save Padmé. The "hard right" is the point, the horror, the tragedy.

Killing Younglings intentionally with cold, cognitive premeditation for personal gain is a big leap in itself, it is a new line for him to cross. Which is another reason why killing the Tusken children was needed. Doing something similar before, though more an impulsive crime of passion, and rationalizing it, made it possible for him carry through with crossing this new line in a more controlled, deliberate manner this time, despite part of him did not wanting to, though feeling he has to. He's making himself into a monster because, as he felt in AotC, "I have no choice."

So he did gradually make his way to this capacity for evil, in that his first spontaneous massacre, which was born from years of circumstances, influences, planted seeds and incremental personal choices which he justified, made it possible to commit this one.

Early in AotC we see Anakin rationalizing things to suit his own ends, such as his rationalizing the Jedi practice of compassion in such a way as to imply that he was encouraged to love -- in a romantic way. As well as his view on politics, "If it works." Later, he felt the savage actions of the men of Tusken tribe was a valid reason to slaughter every member, which, combined with Palpatine's revenge validations, set the precedent for killing the Jedi because they "stand in the way of the Republic".

I call Anakin's turn "a slow burn with a quick yank". And it's Palpatine's years of grooming which set the table for, and make possible, the yank.

And though killing the Tuskens and killing the Jedi are similar, I think the pertinent, more applicable comparison here is killing the Tuskens and striking out against Mace, because they were both impulsive actions with no forethought. Though not excusable, reacting on emotion is relatable. And killing as an intellectual choice is just as bad, sure, but perhaps more sickening.

Yes, he committed a crime of passion against a remote tribe of notorious nomads, which is atrocious, but this time he's crossed another moral line by impulsively striking down a fellow Jedi and siding with the Sith, whom he was supposed to destroy. One slaughter wasn't worse than another, but the motivations were different, and not only is he repeating his mistakes, after regretting the first one, but he's repeating them in service to the Sith, and thus entangling himself in the classic Sith power dynamic. The audience is saying, "Oh no, he didn't learn form his mistakes and he's helping the bad guy!"

Anakin saw the only way out of his predicament was deeper in, and he was hoping this would all be temporary. He was hoping to get enough power to save Padmé and kill Sidious, but the power boost he received, and his shifting of his morals, corrupted him. When he told Padmé that "things would soon be set right", he didn't mean it in the altruistic way you and I would say it. There's irony to it. He means it in a warped sense of "right", in a selfish way, with him as the ruler. When he first pledged himself to Sidious, he was planning to quickly overthrow him and figure the rest out later. However, now that he's received more power by acting on his own dark side, he finds himself unsatisfied and wants more, he's being consumed by the momentum of his own greed. Power is a slippery slope of ever-increasing craving and Anakin is all-to-quickly sliding down it, and of course poisoning his soul in the process. As a result, he has now brought himself to a place where he wants to be the ruler. Now he's seeking power through evil.

I'd say the dark side isn't necessarily controlling his choices, he has now trapped himself in the perpetually spiraling cycle of obtaining power, not being satisfied and wanting more, and wanting even more with which to protect the power he's gotten so it can't be taken from him. His plan to become powerful enough to destroy Sidious was well-intentioned, but that's the Sith trap; the quest to obtain that much power will corrupt you. Anakin underestimated the pull of it.

His mission to kill the Separatist leaders is the point where he starts doing evil simply for the sake of evil. No longer hesitant, he is enjoying the sick thrill of killing them while watching them beg for mercy, and without any justice being served. Now he's not even partaking in wrong for a "justified" right, he's gladly doing the wrong thing simply because he wants to. Because his mind has been twisted into seeing the Sith way as the best way, the stronger way. And of course, this is when we see him with the haunting yellow eyes.

This is also of course where he has a moment to reflect on what's happened. He sheds a tear knowing he's evil now, knowing he's made grave mistakes, but also knowing he's trapped and he has to carry through for any hope of saving Padmé and defeating Sidious.

The pity is in the impact that this is all the result of Anakin's tragic upbringing, Anakin's regular-person side side-stepping the Jedi way, which was exacerbated by Palpatine's manipulation. It's tragic because Anakin avoided overcoming his fears and impulses when the opportunity was there, he got himself into a predicament all because of the human drive to not feel alone, and it led to the whole galaxy having to pay dearly.

He fell too deep too fast. And now, worst of all, in his slavery to his passions, power-lust and desire for control, he's crossed the final line by turning everyone he cares about, the people who want to help him, against himself, thus causing himself to lose them too. Now alone and trapped in a life-support suit, his only solace is in a further quest for power in hopes of someday overthrowing Sidious and ruling everything himself.

By killing the innocent Younglings and ruthlessly turning on his own friend and wife, now one has to wonder if he'll ever be capable of returning to the good side. When we get to Episodes IV-VI, the audience is wondering if there's any humanity left in him, if he'll go so far as to destroy his own kids, or if Padmé was right about him all along.

Keeping his family safe is what drew him to the dark side. Can the same thing be used to draw him towards a return?