Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Well who in Canon, lol. Baylan Skoll?

 

That may be his ultimate fate, could be interesting Baylan and Ahsoka stuck in eternal stalemate.

 

I think Abeloth would hate the concept of being "replaced" lol, but i think the best suited for that role is Daala instead, Lumiya is all about order and forcing a "better future", Daala is the closest to truly represent chaos like Abeloth does.

 

I would personally dislike Star Wars getting that theistic. He’s a powerful Force user on a Force nexus with a bigger ego of himself and his children than the reality.

 

Star Wars went there already with the arc and WBW

 

I always thought the Ones stuff was a bit too much for Star Wars.

 

Too much For George Lucas Version or EU Version, lol as George Lucas would go super weird in his own Sequel Trilogy

 

It's stupid either way

 

Not really, involving gods and the big supernatural is not stupid when its done right. And so far it seems to go for the big supernatural

 

I didn’t like that they made the Ones celestials and tied Abeloth to them. I imagined the celestials as beings so powerful they’d left their physical bodies behind, so the Ones would be beings who hadn’t quite reached celestial-level, and I think Abeloth would’ve been better as some random force demon like Wutzek (who also shouldn’t be a celestial IMO). I’m not a huge fan of the whole Father=balance, Daughter=light, Son=dark thing either, I know they aren’t actually embodiments of the force, but they’re basically portrayed as if they are.

 

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The Ones stuff and WBW comes off to me as Filoni and co trying to make the force more Toilken or C.S. Lewis like when it really doesn't work

 

It all begun with the Creator George Lucas. And nothing wrong with some good old Tolkien influences when its been there since beginning

 

No, that doesn't need to be the interpretation of either arc.

WBW is just this disembodied realm of the Force. Might look different for different people.

For the Mortis arc, the Son "falls" to the dark side during it. And all three die without the Force dying. They were powerful Force-users on a Force-nexus who might have thought they were gods, but weren't.

 

All things are tied to them. From Mortis to WBW and Peridea another whole galaxy. They are called gods. And when in Mortis they were in a time loop. Until otherwise i think The Father is the creator. He is probably a Whill. Like ones George Lucas had planned for his Sequels. They have their very own Mythology. Like Sauron and Morgoth.

 

Just those things are tired to them, and many beings could be called gods, like Threepio. There's no evidence that The Father is the Creator of the universe... and if he is. he is very underpowered, under-informed, vulnerable, misguided, and admits to being wrong.

 

Like many fantasy and sci fi creators. And gods can die just play God of War.

 

What exactly does this stuff really add to the franchise though?

 

God of War isn’t canon to SW

Exactly, I think it would work better if the Ones were portrayed more like insanely strong force users than mythical beings, and the idea that they think of themselves as gods but aren’t was better explored. The concept of nearly immortal force users who’ve come to consider themselves deities is interesting, but in TCW they’re basically portrayed like mythological gods who can only be killed by one thing a la Balder. I don’t like the whole light-balance-dark trinity thing either, IMO having a trinity represent different parts of the force and be responsible for its balance (which appears to be the direction Filoni and co are taking the Ones in) feels out of place in SW, and so much more could’ve been done with the idea that the Ones aren’t that but think they are. I don’t like the Dagger of Mortis macguffin or the whole thing where the children lose their power when the father dies either.

I think the Mortis arc would’ve been better if Anakin’s crew landed on Mortis normally and the Ones’ story was more about them learning that they weren’t the supreme overlords of existence they’d convinced themselves they were in pre-republic times. It could’ve involved Anakin and co investigating connections between ancient religions, eventually discovering the deluded, false gods on Mortis, and learning the truth about them after they get involved in their conflict. It also would’ve been interesting if the Son was more Dooku-esque and fell because he thought turning on the Father was the right thing to do after discovering skeletons in his closet and learning that there was more to the universe than Mortis. The Father could have a darker past and be trying to hide his children from the galaxy so they wouldn’t fall like peers of his did. Sorry for the rambling, I know that’s not a super fleshed out idea.

As for the WBW, I don’t like it at all. I know Filoni stans love to say that it’s not time travel because “Ahsoka always survived”, but I think that sort of time loop stuff should be kept out of SW. I think having another dimension that characters can enter like how Ahsoka did in her show doesn’t fit the franchise either. I also think Ahsoka should’ve died in Rebels, but that’s a different topic.

 

It feels too Christian for the IP.

I think timetravel in Star Wars if it were to occur in any regard should be like how Robert E. Howard used it in "Kings of the Night" and how Titan Comics used it to bring together a bunch of Howard characters together across millenia to fight one evil in the recent Battle of the Blackstone mini that finished in December.

That fits Star Wars a lot more then having the WBW be a thing.

I think that could have been a more interesting thing if they had it be something where the Seperatists are looking for ancient force thing and having that be the driving force for the arc.

 

Not necessarily, that he is a Force God doesn't mean he created the universe, especially considering he "embodies" the Force, ultimately he is still second to the Force itself.

The real "creator god" of Star Wars would be the Force, as it is said it creates life.

 

I thought life create the force?

I think treating the Force as some kind of "God", like a Zeus who sits in a cloud and directs things, is a poor idea. I prefer it as a natural force, something that exists, like gravity.

 

Making the force a person is a terrible idea imo

 

As someone who didn't like the Mortis Arc and often preferred to ignore it, I think there is something important to remember: The original Mortis Arc was framed as a vision rather than some physical truth of the universe. The writers described it as "the cave scene but longer" behind the scenes. I have no idea why the EU was allowed to interpret it as if these are real actual people and Mortis as a real physical place, nor can I comment much on such because I have not read FOTJ.

Just think about the "names" of these characters. "Son", "Father", "Daughter" are not names, they are roles and archetypes. The episodes frame them as if they ARE the Force with the daughter's death being said to cause an imbalance that would ruin the galaxy and war would sweep through it... except that literally already happened before the main character trio entered, and at the end when the Father died, the Force still existed. This is because the Mortis Arc was a "dagobah cave" scene type sequence that, instead of foreshadowing the twist in ESB and Luke's later struggle in ROTJ, is instead framing the six movie saga that existed at the time.

The Father: represents the old and established systems of power under which the other two operate. While not necessarily malicious, his commitment to established rules leads him to eventually pit his children against each other and blinds him to seeking other ways forward. Notably he doesnt trust either of his children to be his replacement, instead trying to force Anakin into that role, a role that would have forced Anakin to abandon the real galaxy and therefore not one he would have ever accepted. Eventually the Father learns that in order to move forward and a new paradigm to be created, he had to die, and so he killed himself, rendering the Son mortal. The role of the good Father is knowing when to give up power and allowing the new generation to take control. "Not the last of the old jedi, but the first of the new".

The Father obviously represents many things in the movie saga, he is Obiwan in episode 4, he is Yoda in episode 6, and eventually he is Vader in episode 6. Notably towards the end of the Mortis Arc he is mostly talking to Obiwan, to whom he reveals the existence of the dagger. The Father is a vision to Obiwan showing his future and the folly of pushing Anakin as the Chosen One and the galaxy's god-given savior, because Anakin, like the Son, is unstable and prone to foolish decisions that damn everyone around him.

The Son: The Son is attempting to disrupt the natural order by leaving Mortis because he saw the future and knew that the galaxy was doomed, and wished to forcefully keep it intact. He convinced Anakin to join him first by showing him a vision of his mother (like in episode 2), then with another vision of his own dark future. While we dont know what Anakin saw with the second vision, besides the ominous vader music and his face appearing in the background, it presumably had something to do with Padme. In stopping the future Anakin joins forces with the Son, who is also the embodiment of the Darkside and thus of Anakin's fall.

The Daughter: Here is where things get tenous because, if we are to be honest, Padme and Leia are somewhat neglected and at times incidental characters in their respective trilogies. Additionally Padme never played a daughter role unless you assume some sort of metaphorical adoption of her by Quigon in episode 1, and Leia never interacted with her parents in the movies: neither her real parents nor with Anakin and Padme. In other words, the Daughter can only really be represented by Ahsoka and Rey. Neither who existed in the six movie saga of the time of the episodes and Rey as a character did not yet exist and likely was not made with Mortis in mind.

Ahsoka was warned to stay away from Anakin by a dream featuring her future self. She is eventually kidnapped by the Son who attempts to convince her to forget her Master, and when she refuses forcefully turns her to the darkside. She proceeds to act as the Son's minion up until she takes the Dagger from Anakin and Obiwan at which point the Son just kills her and attempts to kill his Father but the Daughter jumps in the way and the Son runs off in grief.

While the Daughter's death is somewhat meant to evoke the Anakin killing Padme, there is also a message of Daughters destroying themselves in service due to commitment to destructive people. Mortis is essentially warning Ahsoka that the only way for her to save herself is by running away from Anakin. Perhaps then the reason why Ahsoka is resurrected by the Daughter, who metaphorically symbolizes herself, is because ultimately the only person who can save her is herself and she cannot rely on either Obiwan aka the Father, who is blinded to Anakin's flaws(afterall anakin fell during Episode 2 by slaughtering children without anyone noticing, and the Father somehow didnt see the Son has fallen despite the fact that he literally is the Darkside), nor Anakin aka the Son who seems determined to destroy himself.

The Absence of a Mother: There is no Mother figure on Mortis because the movies they are trying to be an allegory for did not yet have a proper mother figure. Beru exists as something of a mother figure for a few minutes, Breha exists for some seconds in ROTS, Padme dies before her children learned object permanence, Shmi is the closest to a proper mother figure and she too exists mostly to disappear from her son's life or even die. Lucas did want to create an "evil mother type character" for episode 2 before settling on Dooku instead, but none of that actually happened. Additionally each one of the Mortis Trio corresponds to one of the main characters, and noone there is a mother, metaphorically or otherwise. Perhaps one could argue Padme as being something of a mother figure to Ahsoka, but I do not remember much basis for such.



Interpreting these characters as real physical manifestations of the Force introduces so many logical issues. Would the Force itself care about one galaxy in particular succumbing to tyranny? How did the Daughter's death cause the galaxy to fall to darkness and war when it was already at war and both sides are led by Sith? How many times did the Daughter have to die to explain the many sith wars throughout history? Why end with no time passing since they entered the Obelisk?

"What does God need with a starship?" is too iconic of a line for the writers to be unaware of.

I genuinely do not think that Anakin becoming the new Father was ever something he actually could do, nor could the Son actually leave using the space ship. This was a dream pointing to deeper truths and meanings. Similarly they are not "dead" since they are in truth not even alive, they are Archetypes made manifest by a force vision.

 

I see i started a little fun argument here. Maybe cause i have watched and listen to many mythology and stories that revolves around the spiritual and goodhood. I am Christian and maybe i share my belief with the Force to my understanding. To me Star Wars when it introduced us to the Force has always had a touch of Christianity and other religious groups. When the Father was introduced i thought he is as as close to god as we would ever get. And everything since then as proved to be true. He Star Wars version of a creator. The Whills who are the creators. He never died, he transformed into the force like Force Ghosts.