Are there any fallen heroes like Anakin in Myth/Religion/History?

I'm into myth heavily as well, and I think one of the most obvious Anakin like characters from Greek Myth (or any Myth) is Achilles. I recently described why in another thread, but I'll cut and paste some of what I said for what is relevant to this thread.

Achilles has always been the stereotypical tragic hero, and his story, The Iliad by Homer, the classical tragedy epic.

Early on in The Iliad his wounded pride gets him to forgo battle, as does an arguement over a woman (Briseis) with Agamemnon.

Later on, after his friend Patroclus is killed in battle, he rejoins the fight and kills in a rage, slaughtering all that come in between him and the one who killed his friend, Hector.

The allusions are obvious. Anakin often lets his pride get in the way of his thinking, and his love connection with Padme (while very different from Achilles and Briseis, for she was simply the spoils of war for him) has a role in his downfall.

After the death of his mother, probably his only true friend outside of Obi Wan and Padme (who both function more as his mentor and lover) he goes into a rage of vengeance against the Tuskens, slaughtering all in a blind rage, just like Achilles became bloodthirsty and slew the Trojans.

Another similarity exists where Achilles, like several Greek heroes, was the son of both a God (the sea Nymph/Goddess Thetis) and a mortal (his father Peleus, the greatest man who ever lived next to Achilles), and was born of a prophecy (Thetis' son was prophesized to be greater than his father, who turned out to be the greatest man in Greece at the time.) As such, Achilles was constantly in role confusion as to whether he was more like a God or more like a man (before battle he refuses food, the very proof that he was a mortal, since Gods don't need to eat, Athena fed him ambrosia ("immortality", food of the gods) to give him energy before battle.)

Anakin too, was born of a prophecy between a mortal mother and the Force (the closest thing to a God in Star Wars) through the midichlorians. He too is in constant agony over whether he is a man, or a Jedi (the equilavent of a Greek Hero in Star Wars, above man but below God (the Force.)) He wants to be a great Jedi, but also falls in love with Padme, because he is human. Just like Achilles declines food as comfort before battle, Anakin declines Padme's sympathies after his slaughter (this is in the script and now in the DVD while not the theatrical release) when he responds to her assurances that he is only human by stating "No, I'm better than that, I'm a Jedi."

Now, about the redemption part everyone is mentioning in this thread. In Homer's The Odyssey Achilles' story is compared to the hero of this book (Odysseus) (who could be compared to Luke in many ways, which I could get to later if anyone is interested)the stereotypical comic hero. He chooses life instead of glory and death. This contrast is shown that Achilles chose anger/rage that led to Achilles dying and going to Hades and suffering, while Odysseus chose life and returned home (as Luke eventually does after facing his anger and denying it.)

You may remember Yoda warning young Anakin "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Well, turn hate to Hades and you got it! Anakin gives into his anger in Episode III, which results in death and suffering for the whole galaxy!

Achilles himself realizes the folly of his angers and is seen in Hades as wishing he could go back and stop his anger. This is very much like Anakin turning back from his anger, although Achilles never saves his son.

However, The Iliad is the classic Greek tragedy because it ends with a hero destined to fall, while The Odyssey is the classic Greek comedy (not Dumb and Dumber comedy, but the Greeks considered any story that reuniting family, a la the Skywalker twins, and ended happily, a al the death star going Ka-boom, a comedy) that ends with a hero using resourcefulness instead of emotion and rage, and eventually avenging his kingdom (the Skywalker name and Jedi Order) from the suit

 

Please, share with us your other ideas.

 

Alright, here goes a comparison between Anakin Skywalker and Jesus Christ of the Christian faith, I've already stated a bit of this in another thread as well, but I'll add/subtract to make it relevant to this thread as I did above.

Please note, this is not to offend any Christians, I am an avid student of mythology and comparitive religions myself, and have perused many a holy book of many different faiths.

Well, the most obvious comparison that can be made between Jesus and Anakin is that both were born of a virgin in a desert environment to a simple life of poverty (although obvikously the virgin Marry was no slave!) However, many religion stories have their own virgance stories, so there are many things to make the Jesus one stand out as far as Anakin is considered.

Jesus was sent to bring the word of God to man, a "mediator" in Greek mythic terms (Dionysus was VERY familiar God in Greek mythic terms, dressed and acted similarly, walked around with long hair, bath robes, preached equality, and made wine.) Anakin could also be seen as one who would convey the force's message to the galaxy, both the light AND the dark, in that he balances it.

Both Jesus and Anakin were born of a prophecy and conceived from a God (Force being the God in Star Wars)

But more importantly (you can see, as my proffesors noted, I sometimes take awhile to build up to a point) is that both of men are symbols of redemption. Jesus redeems mankind, Anakin himself and the force (and balances it in doing so.)

The story of the Star Wars saga includes, and a good amount of it is based on, Anakin's fall from grace and his redemption. Symbolically speaking it really doesn't even matter if Anakin actually dies in Episode III or just almost dies. Either way he is reborn or resurrected as Darth Vader (similar resurrection theme, but as seen below, differnce in timing.)

Both were tempted by evil, as most religious stories contain the temptation of one of their sole figures by evil.

As for the obvious connection between Anakin and Christ in this respect, Christ did indeed walk the desert and was tempted by Satan, however he never completely gave in.

HOWEVER, it could be argued that Anakin never did either! The very basis for Christian thought is that it is never too late for forgiveness and one can always be forgiven if one is sorry for their sins and repents properly. Darth Vader redeems himself by saving Luke and is rewarded (forgiven) by being able to rejoin the light side of the Force with his former masters Obi Wan and Yoda (the Christian concept of Heaven as a reward for leading a sin free life, or a life full of sin that is properly confessed, repented, and atoned for in the eyes of God, The Force being the closest thing to this comparison of God in the Star Wars Universe.)

Anakin also suffers and dies as a result of his sins (as Jesus did for the sins of man.) Therefore, connecting Anakin to Jesus in no way makes Jesus to be evil, in fact it illustrates one basic tenet of Christianity; it?s NEVER too late to commune with God if the soul is willing to repent and make amends. This is the difference between the Emperor and Darth, Emperor is the symbol of evil (Satan), Darth is the symbol of conflict and the temptation of evil, but the good overcomes, as Christ overcame Satan's temptation (and in the end Anakin overcomes Palpatine's temptation by saving his son.)

The main problem with this theory is that Anakin will be reborn BEFORE he repents, instead of during. So are there are some discrepancies.

But Anakin is hardly JUST a Christ figure, as said before he represents many cultural icons.

Many others too, although I'm sure you're all bored of listening to me go on and on about them by now. If you're more interested in mythic comparisons, check out the thread The Phallic Symbol and Star Wars in the Classic Trilogy I did awhile ago, many very bright people gave some great mythological views there.

Any thoughts?

 

Very interesting points, really. No way we can be bored by such insightful posts. That's what I call a real Starwars discussion.

BTW, what do you study? In what academic courses is Mythology included? History, Psicology?

And what do you say about the other charachters mentioned previously? Saul and most of all, Samson, are really connected to Anakin in the pride/overconfidence issue.

 

Mythology can be studied in different ways at different universities. Classics Departments, Philosophy Departments, and sometimes even Foreign Language (Greek, Latin, Arabic) offer degrees in them.

I'm currently writing a few fiction novels based on comparitive religions and myths, so I'm pretty well versed in some parts of the topic, although the topic is IMMENSE. I recommend Joseph Campbell if you're interested.

One of the reasons I love Star Wars so much is because Lucas knows his myth!

As for Saul and Samson, don't know much about their myths other than general info., but the above interpretations make a lot of sense. Great insights from all!

Historically speaking, Alexander the Great could be seen to be a slight nod to Anakin (not that solidly though) as well as few others. Literature wise, Hamlet is a loose story one could kind of see, as Luke redeems himself (but instead of killing his uncle who murdered his father, he "kills" Darth Vader, freeing his father from him!)

I'll get back to you on others.

Any other thoughts out there?

 

Very interesting analyses. I agree that there are some striking similarities to Achilles and even more to Jesus. I would add to your discussion of Achilles that he is indeed redeemed at the end - when he gives Hektor's body back to Priam.

While I am in complete agreement with you, I think it may be important to stress this:

There are still fundamental and profound differences between Anakin's story and Jesus's story. They do not represent the same archetype. I think the same is true for a comparison of Anakin with any other figure I can think of. The key difference in most cases is that Anakin goes from being a champion of good to being a champion of evil, and is then redeemed. As basic as this archetype seems, I cannot think of any story in which it is present other than Star Wars. I'm sure there are some - but the fact that they are so difficult to identify probably indicates that they are not very common or well known. I think Anakin's story is a more innovative one than Lucas is generally given credit for.

 

saul starts out as one of the good guys, who's chosen to be the first king of his people. saul is selected because he's humble. but during his time as king he's tempted with pride and envy, which leads to his fall. even though saul was never redeemed its intresting to note that he had a son named johnathan. johnathan was tempted with pride and envy as well but never gave in. despite all the evil saul did johnathan never gave in to hate, he never stopped loving his father. saul even had an "old ben" in his life as well, as seer named sammuel. sammuel loved saul like a son, and was the prophet who anointed him to be king. similiar to how obiwan set anakin on the path to be the chosen one. all thru his lifetime saul was a thorn in the sides of his enemies making him a champion of good. in that respect he fullfilled his calling as king. ironic, - saul never realized he could change. he honestly believed he had to stick with the "darkside" once he had turned his back on good.


the devil is another who has similarities with anakin. lucifer starts out as a champion of good, but like saul, falls prey to pride. remember how vader said the name skywalker no longer held any meaning for him? well lucifer believed he was being held back from fullfilling his full potential, so he rejected the name lucifer and took the title satan(which means adversary). in doing so lucifer became a devil, just as anakin became a sith; in an effort to sever all old ties vader completely rejects the name anakin skywalker, even when luke confronts him in episode six. as far as angels go, the devil is the most powerful, even though he's a fallen angel. the same is true of anakin, even as a jedi turned sith, because he is the chosen one. both characters are creatures of prophecy from beginning to end.


even though jesus and anakin share an unusual birth, jesus had an ordinary childhood(which is why his hometown had such a hard time believing his calling!!) while anakin was a phenommenon. also, i would still say anakin gave in entirely, that's why there's a need for redemption in the first place. unless a person gives in to temptation there is no need to forgive or redeem. but i never think of anakin as an incarnation of evil, but rather an incarnation of good that was spoiled. anakins trials through childhood stacked the deck against him. jesus was never a slave, so he never had to go thru what anakin did. both of them had a heart for common man, who didnt have what the rich had. moreover, jesus never has a fall from grace, even though he dies like a criminal. everyone expected anakin to bring balance, while no one believed jesus until his resurrection. jesus didnt lose his mom, his mom got to see him executed instead. while both of them are similiar symbolically, anakin had the rocky road his entire lifetime.

 

Great insights guys!

I agree, despite the many similarities as posted above, Anakin is unique in certain aspects from any other mythological character, but then again, that is why Lucas is so loved, he writes modern myth that both takes from traditional myth and adds new twists in an awesome way!

One of my main interests is Oriental Philosophy and Martial Arts. If you all look into Buddhist lore and the history of Buddhist Monks in general, you can find many examples of those that have strayed from the path with disastrous results.

The feudal history of Japan, including Ninja and Samurai, also have many stories of morality and opposing philosophies, and much of the Jedi concept is based on these philosophies of war and peace, as well as Zen Buddhism. Great myths there, I'll share one here if I can find the right one I'm thinking of (I don't want to be inaccruate, I remember it though) about a Samurai who became a Ronin who worked for evil lords but then redeemed himself. Great stuff?

Awesome insights guys, keep them coming!

 

What about Pericles? He was mentioned several times already in this thread, but I don't know anything about his story. Who could add something about him?

 

Doesn't the story of the persian king Midas also paralels the one of a falle hero?

 

samson was what you would call a miracle child, becuase he was born to a husband and wife who were barren. he was born in a time before saul, so his people had no king or monarchy. but everytime the people found themselves overrun by the nations around them they cried out to God for rescue.

in response, God would raise up a chosen one, for each generation that turned to him for help. samson was one of those chosen ones commonly known as judges. so even though samson was not a product of a virgin birth, he was still born under unusual circumstances. and, he was born according to a prophecy. just as anakin had vows to follow, samson had vows as well; and like a traditional padawan learner, samson was dedicated to this calling from birth. one sign about samson was his hair - it was not to be cut. to my knowledge, samson was the only judge chosen for the job from birth. (out of thirteen judges!)

his power was his physical strength, and in times of need he would be stronger than those that opposed him(regardless of the number). like anakin, samson did not hold to his vows when they got in the way of something he wanted. his power made him proud and his pride made him overconfident. it was common knowledge that he loved women, so it was only natural that his enemies would use a girl to bring samson down. samson gave away the secret to his strength to this girl and she betrayed him. so in the end his pride cost him his freedom and his sight, it wasnt enough for his enemies to take him prisoner - they blinded him as well. like anakin, samson surprised the enemy with an attack that would cost him his life. he was granted the opprotunity to use his strength again, when he turned God for mercy so he might avenge the loss of his sight.

also like anakin, samson often acted based on his feelings more than thinking things thru. one word that describes both anakin and samson is passion. they were both warriors of passion and terrible temper. had both kept their vows theres no telling how far they would have exceled as chosen ones.

 

someone else had mentioned judas as a parrell to anakin. and it got me thinking about how both anakin and judas appear to be products of fate. in other threads, i have heard others question whether or not anakin really had a choice when it came to becoming vader...the novelization of AOTC commented on the chosen one prophecy, saying that the darkside would grow stronger before balance was restored to the force. yoda went on to say that in order to probe the force for future events would require probing the darkside.(while the ability of the jedi remained diminished) this almost implies that anakin giving in to the darkside was necessary to fullfill his destiny...

judas, despite being one of the twelve, was destined to be the traitor of the group so all prophecy regarding the messiah would come true. the question still remains, did he have a choice? did anakin have a choice? did anakin being on the darkside enable him to accomplish something the jedi would be unable to do? judas betrayed jesus according to prophecy....that was his destiny.


now someone else mentioned the emperor being symbolic of satan, but when i consider the chosen one prophecy on a larger scale there are parrells between the emperor and the anti-christ. both rise to power from subtle beginnings, and are looked to to lead in times of crisis. the leadership of both makes each appear to be a type of savior as they endure during global upset. both appear to be virtually unstoppable until the very last scene. the whole idea about the darkside growing stronger before balance is brought to force made me think of this, since the anti-christ is supposed to show up right before a great renewal of all things.



another parrell for anakin could be joseph. he was a kid that was born 400some years before moses. like anakin, he had dreams regarding the future(from as early as his teen years) but unlike anakin, joseph could tell you the meaning of any dreams he had. it was his gift to know what the dreams meant. if others dreamed and wanted to know what the meaning was, joseph could tell them. no matter what, God always gave joseph the meaning behind the dream. like anakin, joseph became arrogant because of his abilities and like anakin, joseph was held in special favor.(everyone looks to anakin to bring balance to the force)

joseph's pride was his downfall, so much so that his own brothers schemed on how to get rid of him! they succeeded in selling joseph into slavery and covered up the action by claiming he died. his time as a slave humbled him and gave him time to overcome his pride. it could be said that his time as a slave mirrors the hardships anakin had to endure in his lifetime. once joseph overcame his pride he had the strength not to give in to hatred when he saw his brothers again. which brings us to the last major similarity between anakin and joseph - both are saviors. while anakin brought balance to the force, joseph saved the then known world during seven years of famaine.

during his time as a slave, joseph's idenity was buried on the inside, just as anakin skywalker was buried inside of vader. in the end, when joseph finally fullfills his destiny, he is reunited with his family that has long believed him to be dead. in effect, his full idenity is restored. when vader finally decides to rescue luke, he regains his true self. if joseph had not become a slave, he never would have been in the right place at the right time. perhaps it worked the same way for anakin?? not a walk on the darkside, but joseph did give into pride, lived as a slave, saw dreams regarding the future, lost his idenity only to take it back again and saved his known world.

whats also intresting to note, is that joseph's true self never died during his slavery, just as vader's true self endured despite all his years in the darkside.

 

Awesome insights, poweranger.

I have never noticed that the Bibble was so filled with fallen heroes stories. I always thought that the greek mythology was the great mosaic of the tragic heroes.

Keep up the good posts!

 

*you could compare anakin's story to so many tragic heroes and find something.

*I like the Samson and Achilles comparatives though.

*in modern stories:
you have Xena. now there a story of redemption! She was a destroyer of nations who was redemd and went on to fix that which she had broken and ends up dying to save someone else. (several times actually)

someone else already mentioned angel.

then their was ben afflecks character in Dogma-who after killing bunches of people silently ask for forgiveness from God before he dies.

*The bible has many stories that are based in mythology-what about Adam and Eve totally mythology and a tragic story as well.

*i also wanted to correct some things about lucifer:

well lucifer believed he was being held back from fullfilling his full potential, so he rejected the name lucifer

1-no Lucifer started a war between himself and god because he felt that god loved the humans too much. (demons are suppsibly those that were on his side of the war.) not because he was being held back. it was a mix of pride and jealousy that had him throw out of heaven.

What Abbadon does is cast Lucifer into The Pit for a thousand years

as far as angels go, the devil is the most powerful, even though he's a fallen angel.

2-Michael the Archangel threw Lucifer into the pit of hell with God's orders. So there are some just as strong as he-since he was an Archangel as well. and stronger. there are seven levels of angels-the seraphim angels being the strongest and largest of them all.

 

re: the devil

i havent read any stories about him outside the bible... you meantioned dogma, what else would you consider good resource(s) on lucifer? i havent read "paradise lost" yet, i hear that has alot on angels too.


the impression the bible leaves you with is that lucifer wanted to be in charge( that he was jealous of God), so he tried to overthrow God(thats where the pride came in); it doesnt say anything about lucifer believing God loved humans too much, but it does imply something about the devil being put in charge of the world realm after adam broke the only rule God gave him.

i agree with what you said about micheal, but the point i was trying to make was that micheal couldnt kick lucifer out on his own. he NEEDED Gods clearence(authority). again, the bible leaves you with the impression that lucifer was second to no one, so the only one higher(greater, stronger etc) would be God. also, the bible tends to aply terms like demons, gods, fallen angels, unclean spirits and familiar spirits, to all mean the same thing. apparently several angels wanted lucifer to be in charge instead of God, so they sided with him.




did anyone else notice that anakin seems to be the only jedi that doesnt need to meditate to have dreams/visons? for everyone else it seems necessary to meditate before he or she sees a vision, but anakin has them all the time without meditation! maybe he'll have a vision of vader before episode three ends.....

another parrell between samson and anakin... they both slaughtered a large number after the murder of someone they cared about. for samson it was for a fiance and her family, he slaughtered an entire army in revenge.

another note about joeseph, during his time as a slave he was thrown into prison for a crime he didnt commit. by the time he saw his brothers again, joseph had come into great power; they were the ones to blame for all his hardship and so he could have easily taken revenge on them if he had choosen to give in to hate.(in fact, that is what his brothers expected of him!)


does anyone remember highlander the series? isnt there a tragic hero mentioned there as well?


thanks for the links regarding loki and abbadon!

 

Well, for those of you who have read Tolkien's 'The Silmarillon', Turin Turambar is an excellent example of a tragic hero. He commits all sorts of wrongdoings, and while some are not really even his fault, others are due to his quick temper. In the end, though, he redeems himself by slaying Glamdrung, greatest of all dragons, and then commiting suicide.

 

i havent read any stories about him outside the bible... you meantioned dogma, what else would you consider good resource(s) on lucifer? i havent read "paradise lost" yet, i hear that has alot on angels too.


the impression the bible leaves you with is that lucifer wanted to be in charge( that he was jealous of God), so he tried to overthrow God(thats where the pride came in); it doesnt say anything about lucifer believing God loved humans too much, but it does imply something about the devil being put in charge of the world realm after adam broke the only rule God gave him.

1-I wasn't mentioning dogma as a refernce to the devil-Dogma the movie was mentioned for a parallel to Anakin

2-I was wrong, I was think of another story I had heard and I can't remember the exact local of the story.

sorry.

 

Peter from the bible comes to mind peter reminds me of anikin,cause peter was good then he denied jesus sinning like anikin good turning evil and like anikin,peter redemed himself and apologized anyone agree. Although the difference is bible is real and starwars is fiction.

 

If we're going into the world of Tolkien, I thought of Anakin immediately when introduced to the character, Boromir. Both characters were inately good men, but were seduced by a dark force that they did not see, and were therefore taken by. They were driven to betray their friends out of what began to be a will to do good, and in the end, they were both redeemed before their moment of death.

 

could the terminator be a tragic hero? in the first film he's a villian and in the second he's a hero who sacrifices himself for the greater good.

 

I don't think that LotR offers much up in the way of fallen heroes - it's mostly good against evil. I haven't read the Silmarillion but.
Something else: in most other mythologies, the heroes travel to some distant land to destroy the evil lurking there; none of them have contended with an evil (the Ring) in their midst. I like PJ's movies for bringing the Ring to life!

 

I don't think the Terminator as a tragic hero. The T-800s from the two movies are two different cyborgs: the first, that was programed to kill, and the second, that was programed to save. That change of conscious didn't happen in the same unity, by its own will.

I just received my Beauty and the Beast DVD I could immediately identify the Beast as a fallen hero. Here's a short review of his story:

He began as a gifted and proud spoiled prince, whose arrogance made a sourcerer cast him a spell that turned him into a monster (he lost his humanity) and everything that surrounded him in darkness. Years after, when all hope was fading and he thought it was too late for him, he falls in love and is loved by the Beauty, wich at the end turns him into a human again (that genuine feeling and its reciprocity makes him reach his humanity again, setting him free from all the darkness of his life).

 

Just wanted to add on to my comparison of Boromir to Anakin. To Boromir, the ring was like the dark side. It seduced him, and he was arrogant enough to think he could wield it in the fight for good, but it ended up consuming him.

 

Wasn't Saruman one of the good guys at first, long before the time where the LOTR trilogy is placed?

 

yes saruman was a good guy gone bad. does anyone know pericles story?