Lit Are you okay with how the new canon enforced celibacy in the new Jedi Order?

Well to be fair that's because George never official approved of Legends in his own universe...So i mean it's ok to say George idea for the world are wrong...But that's always been one of the big things in the Legend/Canon/George divide.

In many ways I see this debate very much as Fans misinterpreting what they think Star Wars is to what Star Wars actually is.

 

The Legends NJO became a pretty distinct cult of Skywalker, to the point that they turned to a drug addicted scum bag who constantly dipped into the dark side to save the galaxy in Legacy. Let's not pretend the NJO didn't also have significant flaws, or for that matter and pretty high rate of dark side turns.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

I mean Luke's NJO had a new Padawan either die or turn to the dark side every other week ;p

Kip Duron kills billions and destroys a planet....Eeeeh it's fine, your cool. Luke went to the Darkside for a little bit so you good.

 

Me having never read legends stuff, What I see in the movies and tv shows is what I get and understand from the jedi order. And all the other canon stuff. New jedi series like Tales of the Jedi will likley cover stuff like this.

 

I mean a lot of that early legends stuff is based off the context of the Jedi as based off what people know from the OT ....The PT REALLY did a worldwide on recontexualizing the Jedi.

You know, I'm curious what you @Sauron_18 think of all this given you like a lot of Lucas's work and reading

and here is some of his interviews if interested

Spoiler: So long

 

I think Clone Wars and Rebels has done pretty good in expanding o the jedi and their role, the non-attatchment rule and such. Little exposure on the jedi taking kids and keeping an eye on them. Not to mention big force lore and jedi history.

 

My point is that Legends built it's New Jedi Order based on what people (Authors) perceived the Jedi to be with just the Original Trilogy.

The Prequels recontexulize the Jedi

and now Canon is building off it's Jedi based off the full Jedi from 1-6 ....and Clone Wars....Since a lot of the creatives still very much worked with George.

 

Oh yeah it was massively flawed. But at least it was making new mistakes not just repeating old ones. Luke did a good job (mostly), since it proved lasting and was only set back after a massive war. Even after some PT Jedi took over they didn’t role back his reforms.
In legends Luke just did the same stuff with the same result.

edit: also @Jid123Sheeve Lucas DID personally sign off on tales of the Jedi and Dark Empire, both of which had Jedi in relationships and having kids.

 

Signing off doesn't mean he agrees with it as HIS Star Wars though.

One thing about Lucas was he was honestly a better businessman than he was a creator in some aspects.

 

One thing you can say about the PT Jedi that you can't about the NJO: the High Council never had a knock down drag out fight with each other where one of them died.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

Anakin and Mace? "You are on the council - but we do not grant you the rank of Master". All right, so it wasn't a long fight, just a strike at the arm, with Palpatine doing the actual killing - but two High Council members did come to blows, and one did die as a result.

 

That was one Council member moments from becoming Darth Vader. The FOTJ fight was 2 masters allegedly still both on the light side viciously fighting each other.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

And then one decided to let the other die.

She could have saved him but choose not to.

 

Oh? Oh. Of course, its Denning.

Saba probably looked at Kenth and saw him as a banquet.

 

No one is pretending that the NJO didn't have flaws. Every organization does. But that's what makes it realistic. Definitely not a fan of the Sequel Trilogy, but an argument could be made that the non-attachment rule was one of the things that drove Kylo Ren away from Luke.

Hell, I've even heard a YouTuber who made a story about Ahsoka and Lux Bonteri winding up tougher during the Jedi Purge. It featured Galen Marek teaching her son and Barriss Offee as an Inquisitor. So, I was into it.

Nobody is saying that the NJO was perfect or anything close to it. It just feels more natural. Let's not forget that many people who simply watched the Classic Trilogy and those who read the EU were taken aback when Episode II's celibacy rule was revealed. I guess we shouldn't have been too surprised, given how Yoda and Obi-Wn are single monks in the first three released films. However, for many, the celibacy rule was jarring, and some found it creepy and unnatural. I came to accept it for the Jedi at the end of the Old Republic, but not for the Jedi who came before or after.

 

"Feels more natural" is, perhaps, the crux of the problem here. The life of a Jedi is one of the utmost self-sacrifice. They aren't meant to be regular folks anymore than Shaolin monks are.

The NJO was born of a time when the Jedi were largely conceived of as warriors and swordsmen primarily. And it was already underway before the PT came about and Lucas definitively said that Jedi don't marry and have families, that Anakin was an abberation, and furthermore that the EU was not "his Star Wars" and that Luke would never marry in his post-ROTJ.

In Lucas' vision, the Jedi serving primarily as warriors is a significant misstep and betrayal of who and what they are supposed to be. Which is basically monks, whose engagement with the galaxy is supposed to be diplomatic intermediaries primarily. Wielding laser swords only in reactive defense.

It's a very different calling than what the EU envisioned for Luke's new Jedi or for TOTJ, for that matter. Luke as "reformer" of the Jedi is a significant retcon born of assumptions made about the Jedi based on essentially scant information of what they were before being wiped out.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

They're even supposed to be prepared to sacrifice one another:

RoTS:

"For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met- loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he- he will never, I think, truly understand."

He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner- one day sooner- were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."

"As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."

Which, presumably, is what Saba thinks she's doing when she "sacrifices Kenth to save others".

 

I don‘t think that was Sabbas logic at all. Remember she wanted to start a war in that moment. So it „kill Kenth to save others“ and more „kill Kenth to kill even more people.“

Also I wouldn’t call Sabba lightside in any way. She is essentially a darksider, just with a strong personal loyality to Luke.

 

The whole thing with Kenth and Saba just brings me back to why I was able to make peace with the decanonization of Legends. I have so much love for most of Legends, but LOTF/FOTJ pushed me to a breaking point. I'm actually surprised I read FOTJ after LOTF, which I attribute to just knee-jerk Star Wars consumption at the time.

All of Dennings worst imho habits were on display in those books and it really showed how they couldn't move on from the Big 3 and were so afraid to repeat an ROTJ resolution(after repeating Clone Wars and Rebellion ish consistently) that they undermined the mythic core of Star Wars with Jacen's end, and showed they had no conception of how to make Jaina THE big damn hero even as they sort of shoehorned her into the role after centering Ben and Luke for most of LOTF.

I also can't help but think about how all this touches on the discourse around the ST and Rey No-One/Palpatine/Skywalker. The mere fact of Anakin Skywalker breaking this part of the Jedi Code kicked off 2 generations of a Jedi dynasty at the center of all havok in the galaxy. In Legends it was how many more?

If Jedi marrying made you feel more like you, as a person who has romantic relationships, could more easily "be" one of them.... think of how much more important the caveat that you're born into into with family with the right genetic predisposition for Force-sensitivity becomes. Because the NJO had multiple Jedi "noble families."

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

@Dawud786

I mean Bantam Era Jedi essentially were like Harry Potter wizards with the bloodline thing and the Force.

If your mom and dad were a jedi most likely you were are gonna be one too.

 

Like many others, the EU’s depiction of the Jedi is what I grew up with and accepted. It seemed to grow naturally from the original movies. The prequels gave us a different vision for the Jedi, but it took me a while to appreciate those differences.

It’s easy to have a negative impression of the Jedi and their teachings in the prequels. But I think that’s the opposite of what Lucas intended. The view many people took away—that the Jedi are cold, unfeeling, overly dogmatic, and foolish—is precisely the point of view the Sith framed for Anakin. But Lucas has been clear that the Jedi fell not because of the Sith trap laid against them, not because of their beliefs.

The Jedi teachings on attachment are not about being cold and removed from humanity. Rather it’s about compassion, about being able to have unconditional love for all life, not just the lives of those closest to us. The Jedi serve the Force, they serve all life, and they get their power from the Force. But if they use that to serve themselves or those who they see as a part of themselves, even for good, then they set themselves on the path to the dark side.

Possessive love is common in our world, and it’s not necessarily negative. But it is a perilous force for people in power, and it’s part of why corruption is so widespread in our world. When you look out for your clan first, then you put the interest of others second. And that’s not what the Jedi are about. It’s also not what public office should be about, which is why there are so many checks and balances. But I won’t digress further.

No one is arguing that we regular humans shouldn’t love as we do. It comes natural to us and is something that makes more sense when your personal life is just that, personal. But the Jedi are devoted to the public, and have the power to affect far more than just themselves. So they must relate to the world differently as part of their training against the dark side, against fear.

And even regular people can learn from the Jedi to try to be more compassionate, more selfless. For us that means thinking about the good for others, including our loved ones, above our own. Possessiveness is dangerous even in the personal sphere. And more compassion is something good to aspire to, even if we don’t mean to serve the public as the Jedi do.

And that’s one big thing that gets lost in all this. The movies don’t suggest everyone should become a Jedi. It’s not simply a role everyone can safely have. So teachings of the order are meant only for those for whom being a Jedi and serving others is a calling. They also give up all their possessions and their life to serving the Force. Personal love is simply a part of that. And not everyone needs to answer this calling. Not everyone is meant to be a Jedi.

And that’s hard for an audience to hear sometimes. We want to be as cool as the Jedi. We want to have their powers and their adventures and save the world. But in Lucas’s world, the Jedi must be trained and taught in order to be able to do that. Not only their bodies but their spirits must be trained to carry out the will of the Force.

I think it would’ve been interesting to see what Lucas’s resurrected Jedi Order would have looked like when it was just starting from scratch again. We’d see some parallels to the prequels with the master/apprentice pairing, with training Jedi from a young age, and with the emphasis on training against fear. But these Jedi would really need to train apart from the world, and they would have to be even more cautious about training the wrong people or getting into traps laid out by their enemies.

I theorize they would’ve had to be far more hidden from the rest of their world, training in remote locations and only being brought in to defend the Republic in when they were absolutely needed. This would mean that for a generation at least, the Republic would be especially vulnerable to chaos, as it waited for the Jedi to return in enough numbers to defend peace and justice. Because, also unlike in the EU, the Republic would necessarily not have an army or fleet at its disposal. At least eventually. It is not like our bigger earthly governments, and it does rely on law and order, eventually defended by the Jedi, to resolve disputes. But that’s another topic.

 

Mon Mothma's "Jedi with jobs" speech in Ambush at Corellia was one of her better ones IMO:


"I believe, and believe strongly, that the Republic needs Jedi that get their hands dirty, that are part of the Republic's daily life. Jedi that live in ivory towers might be more dangerous than no Jedi at all. You need look no further than our very recent history to see that it has been the Dark Jedi that have sought isolation. To be a Jedi of the Light, a Jedi must be one with the people. There must be a Jedi on every planet, a Jedi in every city- not a few planets full of Jedi and nothing else. There must be Jedi doing what ordinary folk do. Jedi who are ordinary folk. There must be Jedi doctors and judges and soldiers and pilots-- and politicians."

 

I mean we are kinda seeing that with what Luke is doing right?

Not on Coruscant, away from all the politics of the New Republic, Luke has essentially removed himself from all that right after Endor really.

 

Indeed! I’m curious if we’ll get to see it grow enough or if Ben’s generation will be the only one. That’s what the movies imply, but there’s nothing more Star Wars than a retcon. And it may help speed up stories set after the sequels if we have a few fully trained Jedi survive out there somewhere.

 

I mean while i agree there is nothing more Star Wars than a retcon....they had a chance for that retcon with Grogu ....and they didn't go for it.

So...I mean, it can still happen...but it hasn't happened yet.