TV Discussion Asajj Ventress [2024 Spoilers]

to be fair. I did completely forget about the bomb thing, but my problem with Ventress’s enslavment is she is sad when her slaver dies.

I guess you could toss that up to her spending most of her life with the dude at that point, but it’s still weird to have somebody sad over the death of their enslaver

 

The Dooku book talks about this.

 

The part that really horrified me was when Anakin exclaimed, "Slavery, yippee!"

 

I hope her appearance in the BB (which was probably one the best episodes of the show to date IMO) is paving the way for Asajj in live action. She's a really interesting character and one that would/could be a real asset somewhere down the line.

 

Hell yes, she is a character that needs to be seen. Live action would be amazing, but I'll take animation too.

 

She was originally supposed to be the main villain of ATOC before they came up with Dooku. Her time in Clone Wars been great and her episode here shows how she has grown. They promise her a big future on the timeline, that may involve live action in Ahsoka season 2 and Filoni's movie. He was the one who brought her back so he had plans for her.

 

Was she meant to be Palpatine's next apprentice after Maul? That would be news to me.

 

I thought her "Sith Witch" concept art origins were created for The Phantom Menace, as one of the early ideas for Maul. I could be wrong, though.

 

Yes. She was the next Sith lord, supposed to be our first Female sith.

 

Yes, thanks for contextualizing my comments because this is what I was thinking. I'm specifically saying that traditional gender roles shouldn't be portrayed as unproblematic, as the status quo, or romanticized in any way.

I think I mentioned that as long as they are subverted or estranged, then you can include traditional roles or beliefs as the object of critique.

Yeah, when we speak of "condemn," it's not like we're saying that the director or a character needs to make an overt speech. It's always best to show through the dramatic action that something is wrong or problematic.

I personally think the slavery issue should have been portrayed more strongly than it was in TPM. You're right that they did touch on it, but it was undermined by a relatively friendly representation of what I'll call here a "yippee" form of slavery.

"Yippee, they might blow you up!"

 

What if you’re writing a story set in the past where these gender roles or the system of slavery are the status quo and go largely unchallenged?

I think Star Wars is more comparable to a period piece like that then a story set in modern times

 

That's problematic if you're portraying them in a positive light.

"Oh look keeping women in the kitchen was totally cool."

That ends up promoting roles that should not be promoted. In other words, without critique, it can function as unintentional propaganda.

 

No it doesn’t. If the story doesn’t “show that it’s wrong through dramatic action” but also doesn’t portray it as a positive then it’s neutral, not promoting anything. Just showing characters who live in a way that goes against your morality without them being criticized or learning a lesson isn’t endorsing their behaviour.

 

This isn't Star Trek where political issues are hidden in "alien" storylines. All things SW is a joyous escape from considering the injustices in the world. Leia broke the gender defining role, by being tougher than the boys.

Forgive me if I lost what this discussion was about, but if it entertains me, it's pretty OK as is.

 

There’s plenty of political allegory in Star Wars, I just fail to see what the harm is in portraying a non ideal world without the story passing judgement. That’s what you are for

 

I don't remember much political allegory in SW.

Spoiler

 

Historically, not all slaves were whipped and worked to death. And it's not like Anakin was happy with being a slave. He clearly did not want to be one. And he disliked when Padme called him a slave. And he dreamed of freeing all the slaves. The Phantom Menace did not portray slavery as good. In fact, we learned, that the Republic outlawed slavery, but in places like Tatooine, places controlled by the gangsters, it is just the way of things. Tatooine is a harsh place. The movie did more than enough to say that slavery is not a good thing. It is just an aspect of the galaxy that exists. "The story is bad because Anakin was not whipped to death and said yippee once" is not a valid critique or analysis. Just like "Ventress died for a man, therefore story is bad".

 

I think TPM clearly does give a moral judgement on slavery yeah

 

it would be perfectly fine to make a movie about a racist slaveholder from a “neutral” position (by which I just mean the story doesn’t include any comeuppance or a moral condemning slavery, not that the slavers are absolved in any way) in 2024 or any year. As long as the movie accurately portrays slavery and doesn’t try to whitewash it I’m fine with having reactionaries as heroes of their own stories


To give a concrete example of what I mean. Take The Catcher in the Rye, there’s a chapter in there which portrays homosexuality/transsexuality in a manner reflective of the oppression of the time, through the eyes of our POV character who is somewhat disdainful. The narrative makes no effort to disillusion us of Holden’s problematic pov. Does this make The Catcher in the Rye a homophobic work? I think not

 

By portraying things as they were, if the story didn’t have any other message about slavery, that would be neutral. Of course as anti-slavery advocates we have no obligation to be neutral towards the slaveholder character

 

I don’t think Ventress portrayal in The Bad Batch is bad at all. The debate about Dark Disciple is that Force Nexus and I disagree with you about whether Ventress lost her spine or was “fridged for Vos’ development”. I don’t presume to tell you that you’re wrong for having a different opinion on the story.