Back to Midichlorians, Luke has to have as many as Anakin

The Midi count is a concentration, not a total.

The reason torso boy wasn't as useful to the emperor had more to do with the fact that his limbs were now robotic. He can't shoot lightning because it would short himself out. He can't be as effective with his response time, because even though he can still see things before they happen, his robotic limbs are just not as responsive or precise as living limbs would be.

 

That quote from Lucas doesn't make any sense. If Anakin could have been 200% of the Emperor, but dropped to 80% of the Emperor, that means that he became 40% of what he could have been. If it's because he lost cells containing midichlorians, that means that Anakin lost 60% of his cells. Let's see, he got both arms cut off around the elbow, and both legs at about the knee. There is no way that he lost 60% of his body. I don't think he even lost 60% of each limb.

 

I've seen that quote before. That doesn't change the fact that Anakin's per-cell midichlorian count would not have been altered.

 

Okay the thing is you're either being a wise guy or you didn't know we were talking about overall midi-chlorian count.
I think you had to know we we're talking about overall midi-chlorian counts so I think you were just being a wise guy.
If you didn't know we were talking overall midi-chlorian count then let it go.

 

That's really just an interpretation about Vader being less powerful only because of the robotics parts. If Vader was going to be twice as powerful as the Emperor then Vader could have crushed the Emperor just by thinking it like he did to all the droids after his surgery and the Emperor would not have been about to stop it but the Emperor is able to prevent things like that because Vader is weaker than the Emperor because his midi-chlorians are gone. Robotics have nothing to do with telekinetics.

So what if Vader's concentration is higher per cell than other characters if he's half the person.

Saying Vader's midi-chlorian count is the same just because the concentration per cell is the same is like saying one pint of liquor with 100% alcohol will get you as drunk as four pints of liquor with 50% alcohol.

 

It makes sense for the same reason Superman flies.
It makes sense for the same reason Indiana Jones can survive a nuclear explosion.
It makes sense because it's a fantasy movie.

 

Fenn, you're choosing to address one sentence I made in my post while disregarding other sentences that make up the entire post. My opinion on this matter is conveyed via many sentences that all share common point.

I don't just post here without giving considerable thought to my posts but you critique one sentence of my post without paying any mind to the rest of the paragraph(s) in the post which is taking my post out of context. Why do you do this?

So answer the question before you just at your convenience knock my post down without giving any regard to the entire post: Why does Yoda say, "Size matter not" if the size of the midi-chlorian count matters?

Next, I want you to show me where in all the Lucasfilm sanctioned literature and Lucas quotes out there does it say that a only a person with a specific amount of the midi-chlorian can be a Jedi.

 

Yeah, right. I "didn't know" you were talking about overall midichlorian count:

Once again, the total number of midichlorians in the body is completely irrelevant. Lucas never mentioned it once, nor did his films or any of the authors working for his company.

This is the first time I've ever seen the "you only quoted part of my post" manuever pulled out while admitting that the part I quoted conveyed the point. Brilliant!

Great. That's what we call a "cop-out".

Uh... I'm going with because he was talking about the size of objects... the traditional use of the word "size"?

"Size matters not" does not mean "All distinctions are irrelevant" or "A difference in variables never results in a different outcome".

 

Once again Fenn you proved that you see your point as the only one that matters by using deflection and spin to discredit the any opposing point of view.

And once again you present no proof whatsoever that it requires a certain amount of midi-chlorians to be a Jedi.

I like how you attempt to make a fool of me and discredit my point about how you take my posts out of context by selecting to respond to only one sentence but then you answer my question as to why Yoda says, "Size matters now" by simply saying Yoda is doesn't really means what he says. So basically you're calling Yoda a liar. So basically you're saying Star Wars doesn't really mean just believe in yourself and do the right thing. So basically you're saying we should just all give up because believing in ourselves will get us no where. Thanks for clearing it all for me that Star Wars isn't supposed to say anything and is just a cash cow for Lucas.

I'm not the one who's saying Vader was going to be twice as powerful as the Emperor but ends up having only 80% of the power of the Emperor after he loses a third of his body. That's Lucas saying that. You're the one saying Vader is still twice as powerful as the Emperor even after Mustafar because you say it doesn't have to do with overall midi count but has everything to do with midi per cell count.

 

Whatever. It's Lucas' definition of midichlorian count that matters, because it's Lucas' story. Your definition of midichlorian count -- you know, the one contradicted by TPM -- is irrelevant nonsense.

If you're not getting that from TPM and ROTJ, I don't know what to tell you. Lucas isn't going to come to your house, hold your hand, and verify this in explicitly worded legalistic language.

No, actually you did that yourself. Bravo!

You must have me confused with David Brin.

Once again, "Size matters not" does not mean "A difference in variables cannot produce different outcomes".

Madness.

 

Then why does Lucas say that Vader is only 80% as powerful as the Emperor after Mustafar when Vader was twice as powerful as the Emperor before Mustafar? You don't seem to want to answer that. See by your logic Vader would still be twice as powerful as the Emperor after Mustafar because Vader's midi-chlorian count per cell is still the same. So why is Lucas saying Vader has lost 60% of his power after Mustafar? You're just not answering that.

So basically you have no proof and you're never going to present proof so you're going to just keep resorting to putting me down.

And again instead of presenting proof you just put me down again.

Again, you're just saying that when Yoda says, "Size matters not" it really just means nothing and again you have to put me down. "Size matters not" is a real simple phrase to understand. There is no smoke and mirrors in that statement like you want me to believe. If size matter not then the size of a Star Wars character's midi-chlorian count does not matter. You're just putting a spin on it because you're up against a wall here but your antics don't fool me.

 

Yoda was only referring to objects, to get Luke to correct his way of thinking. Luke was thinking the X-Wing was too large, too heavy for him to lift...Yoda corrects him by asking simply, if Luke judged him by his size as well...He was in no way referring to the size of someone's midichlorian level, merely physical size. It goes back to my speed governor analogy. Darth Vader has the same midichlorian count that he had prior to his injuries. But, those injuries limit his ability to access the Force externally. Reducing his midichlorian levels would be an internal limitation, which would imply that it its midichlorians per body, (thus, losing limbs means less midichlorians) as opposed to losing limbs simply reduces his ability to tap into those midichlorians. Based on comments made in the films, there is a clear link between Force ability (determined by midichlorian levels, per TPM) and family genealogy. (The Force is strong in my family, Emperor knew if Anakin were to have children, etc) That clearly indicates midichlorian levels are tied to genetics. Which, means its in the DNA, which means losing legs and arms isn't going to change it, just like losing your arm doesn't mean you are going to have one armed children. What losing those arms and legs does do, however, is prevent Anakin/Vader from being able to tap into his Force ability as effectively as he could. He still has the same midichlorian level, he simply cannot access it as efficiently. The injuries impede the efficiency of access, effectively reducing his Force ability to 80% of Palpatines. Instead of my speed governor analogy, consider this...Instead, Both Vader and Luke have the same sports car, while Palpatine has a lesser model. Vader and Luke's has a top speed of 200mph, while Palpatine's can reach 100mph. Vader's car had its tires stolen. The engine is still capable of going just as fast as the one in Luke's, Gets the same fuel efficiency, same horsepower...yet, without those tires, Vader simply isn't going to go as fast as Luke or Palpatine. Without those tires, Vader's top speed is 80mph. Midichlorians are like horsepower...they give Force users the ability to use the Force, like horsepower tells you how much power a vehicle has. However, like with cars, the Force can have external limitations put on it, that dictate how fast a Force user can tap into it, ie, loss of limbs/tires stolen. Put the tires back on/regrow or clone Vader's limbs, lung, etc and he is once again able to speed about at 200 mph. The problem isn't with Vader's "engine", his midichlorian levels that give him his top potential speed, but something else.

 

Absurd.

 

Not to derail it, but Lucas really says RotS Vader was twice as powerful as the Emperor? That's....not what was shown on screen.

 

Its referring to pre-injury Vader, and even then, its potential, not fully realized ability yet. On the Invisible Hand, against Count Dooku, even after giving in to the Dark side, Anakin was probably no where near his full ability level.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Anakin having that kind of potential works much better than the idea that he's achieved it already.

 

A midi-chlorian count is a physical size. Midi-chlorians are matter and Star Wars characters have figured out a way to measure this matter so therefore it has a physical size.

The thing is if I can speak without being ridiculed and I'm not speaking of you Darth Davi because you seem to have the ability to hold a conversation without ridiculing your fellow Star Wars fan.
What Yoda is saying to Luke when he says, "Size matters not," is really just a metaphor that means believe in yourself. Believe in yourself even though the people around you say it can't be done. Believe in yourself and break through the limitations you have placed on yourself. Believe in yourself and break through the perceived limitations that the people around you have placed on you. Believe in yourself even though it is perceieved that nature has put limitation on you. In the world of Star Wars there are no limitations and anyone in this world can be a Jedi if they believe in themselves. There is nothing in the movies that says otherwise. It is only the old Jedi Order that merely practiced genetic discrimination because it is the old Jedi Order who deals in absolutes just like the Sith.

I'm assuming you're talking about lightsaber combat when you call Vader's limbs his tires? Am I right about that?
If you're not talking about only lightsaber combat then you're really not saying anything different than I am because I'm aware that Anakin's per cell midi-chlorian count has never changed. I was simply talking about the overall count. I can understand why Vader's lack of arms and legs would hinder his ability to go one on one in physical combat but what about telekinesis? Why would Vader's loss of limbs hinder Vader's ability to just simply deflect the Emperor attack and just crush the Emperor's body with telekinesis? I mean Palpatine did say Vader was going to be more powerful than either Yoda or Palpatine.

The thing is: If Vader was going to be so powerful then couldn't Vader just think the Emperor dead and the Emperor would be dead before the Emperor even knew what hit him? If the per cell midi-chlorian count is the bottom line then Vader doesn't even need his tires. All he needs is the will and that just requires a brain and the organs to supply said brain with energy. Having no tires has nothing to do with telekinesis. Or do you think it does? Now if Vader needs his tires for telekinsis then overall midi-chlorian counts does indeed make all the difference. What do you think?

This is from the "ROTS" novel after Vader is rebuilt and the shadow is Palpatine.

"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more machine than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember wh

 

Right I beleive it is Anakins potential not yet manifested. He has over 20,000 per cell BUT when he lost his limbs he lost quite a lot of CELLS so that is why Lucas say's he's less as powerful as he could have been. Yet he remained quite powerful as an agent of evil.

 

I don't think losing limbs would reduce midichlorian count. If that was so, you'd gain a higher midi count by putting on weight, growing, or anything else which changed your total body mass. The only logical explanation is that it's a per cell concentration which effects Force sensitivity. The count was only ever a determinant of potential anyway.

 

Immolated One, I wasn't referring just to lightsaber combat ability, although, that would certainly be affected by losing his limbs, I was saying his limbs were like tires, in a general Force usage sense. That somehow, losing the limbs somehow impedes his access to his potential. So, while the potential is still there, represented by his midi count, losing the limbs reduces his ability to tap into it.(I tend to think the midi count is a per blood cell kind of thing, so, the concentration of midichlorians wouldn't have been affected by losing limbs, as long as his body was capable of replacing the lost blood, his midichlorian count would be replaced as well) I used tires to symbolize this idea, because tires have a significant effect on a car's topspeed, regardless of how powerful the engine inside the car is. Anakin and Luke have the same superpowerful engine inside, two of the most powerful engines ever built...BUT, if you remove or puncture the tires on one of those cars, while the engine remains just as powerful as it ever was, the car simply cannot go as fast as it could with four good tires. it is my belief that had Anakin/Vader been able to regain his limbs, most likely through cloning of his own tissue and then grafting them on, or something like that, he would have regained his full access to his potential, as the tires would have been replaced, allowing his car to go at full speed again. I don't know how to fully explain it, other than to simply say that losing limbs impedes your ability to tap into the Force somehow, without actually diminishing your overall potential. Your ability remains, you just can't access it as efficiently as you could, so it has the overall effect of weakening you. I would also say that because he is missing his right arm, Luke is also partially diminished in his access of his own Force potential.

 

The only midichlorian count cited in the films is a per-cell count. And it's not just blood cells, they're in all living cells. Midichlorian counts don't change or need to be replaced.

Isn't it odd, then, that Lucas has never been quoted to that effect? In fact, Anakin's potential is greater than Palpatine's, even after he's lost most of an arm in AOTC.

 

Has anyone actually ever asked Lucas if Luke losing his arm reduced his Force ability slightly? I would think that the same theory applies though, if injuries reduced Anakin from 200% down to 80% of Palpatine's ability, it makes logical sense that losing an arm would have reduced Luke's ability by at least a small amount, although certainly not enough to put him under Palpatine. And, I believe you are right about Anakin...with just the one arm missing from AOTC, he would still have been much stronger than Palpatine, had he realized his potential.

 

He does say it:

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo verion if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side." --- George Lucas, Vanity Fair: February '05

 

I would guess that the 2x the Emperor potential that's mentioned a lot is what Anakin would have been with one mechanical arm with a higher ceiling possible if he had both arms.

 

He's talking about Mustafar there, it seems.

Similarly, there was never any assumption that Luke's potential was affected due to Cloud City.