Battle of Hoth: why snowspeeders and not X-Wings?

"Why the X-Wing fighters were not used to battle the Imperial Ground Forces."

The rebels figured that the Empire may be onto them when they intercepted the probot's signal. They knew their energy shield would pretect them from orbital bombardment, so if the Empire were to come after them...a ground assault would be the logical course of action.

Their escape plan involved packing up everything they could into the transports. 2 fighter escorts would follow closely while the large ion-cannon kept any Imperial capital ships out of their way.

Why use speeders and not x-wings? Think about it. The imperials are coming. You know that you cannot fight them and win in this situation. So, you decide to try and hold them off while you get as much of your resources and manpower off-planet.

Instead of squandering your best ships on a hopeless battle, you run interference using lesser ships, while the good stuff makes a break for it.

Now, the x-wings probably could have blasted the AT-AT's into next week. But what then? Sit and wait until the Imperials find a way to overcome the energy shield? Or until they park a new Death Star in orbit?

And anyone who says it isn't cold in space has no clue what they're talking about.

See vw-Jedi's post. Just because Khan said "...its very cold..in space..." in Star Trek II don't make it so.

 

This is a really dorky thing to argue, but I would say yes, there is a temperature in space. Temperature is a measure of average kinetic energy of molecules, so temperature is only undefined in a complete void. Interstellar space does contain matter, even if it's only one particle of dust per cubic meter. So over an enormous region of space, you could average measurements taken on those dust particles and define a temperature. The figure 3 Kelvin for the temperature of space can be determined from the cosmic microwave background and things like that.

Anyway, the ESB-related point is X-wings would lose heat to space and be unusable unless they were properly insulated, so there's no reason why Hoth's extreme cold should prevent them from operating. Maybe the problem was the snow falling, or maybe they can't hold up to high speeds in atmosphere.

 

In space,temps drop soly through how fast it radiates off the object (ie, X-Wing's engines)

On Hoth, things'll cool down quicker because not only is the engine radating heat, but it's also in an icy enviroment, so the cold air sucks the heat right out, which is why the snowspeeders had to be adapted to the cold.

 

"See vw-Jedi's post. Just because Khan said "...its very cold..in space..." in Star Trek II don't make it so."

I've not seen a single Star Trek movie and I'll kill anyone who tries to say I have.

Yes, there is temperature in space. Have none of you ever seen a picture of a comet up close? Since most come from the outer parts of the solar system, they're covered in ice.

Hoth, supposedly, is cold for the same reason. It's remote so it's cold, and since it has an atmosphere, is blanketed in snow.

Space itself is freezing anyway. Since there is no atmosphere, there is nothing to catch and hold the heat from the sun.

This is stuff we learned in fourth grade science class, people.

 

I hope I don't sound arrogant , but there's bad science being bandied about in this thread. Anyway, it's unlikely anything you were told in fourth grade is the complete truth as our current model of science suggests it.

In space,temps drop soly through how fast it radiates off the object (ie, X-Wing's engines)

On Hoth, things'll cool down quicker because not only is the engine radating heat, but it's also in an icy enviroment, so the cold air sucks the heat right out, which is why the snowspeeders had to be adapted to the cold.

Newton's law of cooling (which governs the rate of temperature drop) works the same in any environment. External temperature (ie. average heat content) is the only relevant factor. The process of heat loss to regions with less heat as a result of random molecular motion doesn't care if there's condensed water outside or not. A region with little heat will "suck" heat out of a region that has more no matter what.

Yes, there is temperature in space. Have none of you ever seen a picture of a comet up close? Since most come from the outer parts of the solar system, they're covered in ice.

Devil's advocate: The existence of ice doesn't prove something is cold. Water can be made to freeze at temperatures either higher or lower than 0 Celsius depending on other external conditions. Also, you can't verify by looking at a picture that the frozen substance you're seeing is water. Different substances have different freezing points.

Space itself is freezing anyway. Since there is no atmosphere, there is nothing to catch and hold the heat from the sun.

If the only way something can get warm is by catching heat from another object, why is the sun warm? You're right that space between bodies is cold, but there's a problem with the reasoning.

 

^Um, because the sun itself creates heat. It doesn't "get warm" because it already is.

 

That was my point. Processes such as fusion can generate heat from within a body. Not that that's likely to happen within a planet anyway, but I was nitpicking.

 

but there's bad science being bandied about in this thread
I find it hilarious that people are disputing the scientific realities of outer space. We need an expert on this...where's John Glenn when you need him?

I agree with AdamBertocci. Its a movie..so something new needed to be used.
I'm flying wingman with that logic! No harm in admitting that GL wanted to introduce new craft for a ground/air battle (since we'd already seen a space battle in ANH)

The Rebels were not interested in holding onto the planet...so the primary goal was to ensure the transports got away. X-Wings could provide cover against TIE -Fighters, as well as draw fire from the Star Destroyers.

So rather then split their resources:
While the Rebel pilots stood no chance against the walkers, Rogue Squadron's snowspeeders delayed the Imperials long enough to allow the Alliance's leaders to escape. - Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

X-Wings could have taken out the walkers, but to what end? If they were shot down...that was fewer starfighters to protect the transports.

 

I'm sure Veers would have been able to shoot down any X-Wings buzzing about his head. I'm sure you've all seen the "fleeing Rebel coward to shield generator" trick shot he did in ESB.

Come to think of it, Snowspeeders were probably picked since they are able to hug the ground easier.

 

I think one look at the relative scale of these two ships should answer this question. Check shots of them docked in the Echo Base hangar. The X-Wings are HUGE by comparison to the snowspeeders -- close to three times more massive and a lot rangier and less compact in shape. Also keep in mind that X-Wings are not designed to be very maneuverable in the atmosphere, and that the energy shield protecting the base would prevent them from attacking the AT-ATs from a high altitude. They would have to approach the AT-ATs from the front, and relatively low to the ground where they would have almost no maneuverability, and thus make extremely easy targets for an AT-AT's long-range turbolasers. It would be a sure recipe for disaster IMHO.

I think the rebels had no choice but to attack the AT-ATs with snowspeeders in this situation. They were small and maneuverable enough not to get targeted and blasted out of the sky before even reaching the walkers.

 

The real question isn't why the Rebels would use snowspeeders vs. x-wings, but why the Empire would utilize a heavily armored attack vehicle with LEGS! Is this supposed to be some improvement on the standard tank design? I think not!

Anyhoo, yes, Georgie used snowspeeders because they were new and cool and he could sell more toys. For an in-movie reason, not wasting expensive and space worthy vehicles on a ground assault also works.

L8r

 

They would have to approach the AT-ATs from the front, and relatively low to the ground where they would have almost no maneuverability, and thus make extremely easy targets for an AT-AT's long-range turbolasers.
Not necessarily, because they could simply approach from a higher altitude...fire quad lasers/torpedoes...and simply bank away from the AT-AT's weapons. They could even do all this from the rear-left and rear-right flanks of the walkers.

 

Not necessarily, because they could simply approach from a higher altitude...fire quad lasers/torpedoes...and simply bank away from the AT-AT's weapons. They could even do all this from the rear-left and rear-right flanks of the walkers.

But how much higher an altitude could they 'simply' approach from? My guess is not high enough to be out of range of the walkers. Remember, there's an energy shield up there. If it were so easy to maneuver spacecraft around under the shield, then why didn't the Empire send TIE fighters and bombers under it to destroy the generator from the air? It would have been a heck of a lot faster than using walkers -- fast enough that the rebel transports wouldn't have had time to escape. The only plausible reason why they didn't go that route is that maneuvering starfighters under the shield must have been nearly impossible.

And if it were that simple to approach the walkers from the rear, then why didn't the snowspeeders do so? I'm sure the Imperial landing zones behind the walkers were not left defenseless. If the Empire had any sense whatsoever there would be plenty of backup guarding the rear of the assault, in the form of landing craft and possibly more walkers.

 

>>Two X-Wings cannot be expected to take on, hold off, or even significantly delay, an Imperial-class Star Destroyer.<<

They can, however, help fend off TIE Fighters from tearing apart defenseless transports.

All right, so it's a variant on the original problem: how would two X-wings handle the entire TIE fighter contingent of a star destroyer?

And yeah, I agree: putting legs on a vehicle when you've got more than enough money to afford repulsorlifts is silly.

 

Damn all of this scientific talk, it gets poor EV all confuzzled. Not really, but I felt like saying that for some strange Gungan reason.

Anyways, another reason why the X-Wing was not used at Hoth might be due to fueling times. If the X-Wings were deployed to act as ground support against the invading Imperial walkers, then the X-Wings are going to use up a good portion of their fuel. Especially since they are not desigened to be atmospheric fighters and they would go through fuel at a much quicker rate than their snowpeeder counterparts. So by having the X-Wings grouned (for the snowpeeder pilots) and the remainder providing escort duty, the Rebels are ensuring that the more valuable X-Wing is making it off of Hoth.

If the X-Wings had to fight off the AT-ATs, then when it became time to leave they may run the risk of having to be refueled. That would only increase the chance of them being caught groundside when the Imperials struck again. It would also minimize their chances of making it off of Hoth alive. This way when the snowpeeders were done fighting, the pilots could fly to their X-Wings, hop in and take off. They would not have to refuel giving the Imps a greater shot of eliminating more Rebels.

 

The only plausible reason why they didn't go that route is that maneuvering starfighters under the shield must have been nearly impossible.

There's also the fact that they can't get through the shield -

"The shield is strong enough to protect them from any form of orbital attack" - or something like that: ESB.

They decided to send in walkers to knock out the power generators, dropping the shielf and allowing the orbital ships through. Also, the shield had to be dropped for each transport to get through (ESB), further suggesting that spacecraft can't get through it.

 

Mara,

It didn't seem so silly when the only thing that gets through the shields are the AT-ATs and AT-STs. That, and that fact that only the battle droids in TPM made it though the shields, maybe the shields destory anything on a respulserlift engine, or anything that isn't in contact with the ground anyway. Unless something that has a repulserlift engine makes it thourgh ground shields in E3, I'm going to contuine to believe that's why the walkers were chosen over everything else.

 

The shield was more of an umbrella than a dome.

 

There's also the fact that they can't get through the shield -

I know that starfighters can't get through the shield, Iron_Fist. They would presumably be damaged or destroyed upon contact with it. Therefore it stands to reason that it would also be extremely hazardous for starfighters to attempt to fly around underneath the shield as well. Doing so while simultaneously trying to fight AT-ATs armed with long-range turbolasers would be exponentially more difficult, if not borderline suicidal.

What I meant about the Empire getting starfighters inside the shield: If ground transports can penetrate the shield, the Imperials could have gotten starfighters in via ground transports and then launched them from inside the shield. Or, if the shield is more of an umbrella as Bib said, their fighters could 'simply' fly under the outer edge of it the same way the incredibly tall AT-ATs simply walked under it. But they don't even attempt this tactic. Why? I contend that it was for the reasons I described above -- it isn't feasible for starfighters to attempt to maneuver around under the shield, especially in extreme combat situations.

 

"What I meant about the Empire getting starfighters inside the shield: If ground transports can penetrate the shield, the Imperials could have gotten starfighters in via ground transports and then launched them from inside the shield. Or, if the shield is more of an umbrella as Bib said, their fighters could 'simply' fly under the outer edge of it the same way the incredibly tall AT-ATs simply walked under it. But they don't even attempt this tactic. Why?"

I always figured the Empire didn't bother with air assaults in this type of ground campaign. Think about it. With a Star Destroyer in orbit the can slag a city from space. There not really a good reason to send a wave of TIE's. With the Rebel's energy shield that tactic was useless so they went to the next invasion plan in the book and sent the walkers. I realize on Earth air superiority is a must in combat but perhaps in the GFFA military stragety and tactics are different?

Also, the Empire likes utilizing fear and mass numbers. A big hulking, walking, shooting transport followed by a whole bunch of stormtroopers would do it for me . Perhaps the Empire is playing on some sort of childhood monster under the bed fear? Physcological attacks are part of warfare too. Just a thought.

 

Yeah, AT-ATs are more of a fear weapon than anything else.

 

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Bottomline: the X-Wings are space capable, so what few they had were used for escort duty off-planet. Speeders aren't space worthy, and are designed for atmospheric combat, so they could be used in the ground battle.[/b][hr][/blockquote]Actually, in the Marvel [i]Star Wars Annual[/i] #3, we see a flight of X-Wings and Snowspeeders travelling interplanetarily between the Rebel base on the planet Kuthlis, to the planet Belderone.

Which could mean that either all of them are capable of such flight, or that these were a special wing, modified against the rigors of extra-atmospheric travel (but how aerodynamic they'd be in "real-life" terms once they hit the upper convective layers prior to radiative equilibrium kicking in is an open question).