Biggest Rebel Ship

I always thought that Home One was of the MC85 class, but maybe I read some faulty info.

 

1 kilometer = 1000 meters
3 kilometers = 3000 meters

Everything I've ever seen refers to Home One being 3200 meters. There's no way it could accommodate twice the fighters of other 1200 meter vessels if it WAS only 1200 itself.

Sounds like the Bulwark is just as long as Home One which is undisputably a Rebel ship itself.

MC-85s are roughly the same size as the others - 1200 meters. Home One was a specilally made vessel.

Jes

 

Just a few notes.

Firstly, the term "MC-85" is nothing but fan speculation. As far as the official records are concerned, Home One was a 1,200 meter long MC-80 cruiser.

Now, I am not saying that Ackbar's flagship isn't actaully larger, but until the powers at be change that, it will remain 1,200 meters.

--Adm. Nick

 

Adm. Nick - what official records are you quoting?

Running a Google search for [ "Home One" MC-80 1200 meters ] produced 2 entries that claimed that Home One was 1200 meters. Everything else said it was larger than the MC-80s.

Because everything I've read says that the Home One was 3200 meters long, and a command cruiser, not a star cruiser...there's a difference, which explains why Home One is generally referred to as its own distinct class.

Jes

 

Also, on another note, the original post asks for the largest Mon Cal ship - and I don't believe the Bulwark Battlecruiser is a Mon Cal vessel. It's not and MC-class ship.

Jes

 

Jesina_Dreis:

As my friend GrandAdmiralJello pointed out, the internet is full of fan stats and speculation when it comes to Star Wars. The only official info on the size of Home One comes from the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and the New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels. Both say that Ackbar's command ship at Endor is of the MC-80 variety and 1,200 meters in length.

All that garbage about the MC-85, larger lengths, heaviver weapons, etc is nothing but fan speculation. Granted some may indeed make more sense, but the fact remains that they are not officially recognized sources.

Let me throw in another example. For years the internet has had references to a fan created MC-100 Super Star Cruiser. They are so numerous in fact that some fans think it is a actual craft. In reality, it is nothing but a hypothetical warship created by a fan.

So, before you go making claims, take care to research your sources. Fan stats are far, far more common on the web than those that are officially recognized.

Hope that clears things up.

--Adm. Nick

 

GrandAdmiralJello
Home One is supposed to carry less weaponry - made up for by its much larger starfighter complement.

AdmiralNick

Please to note that I said nothing about MC-85s or MC-100s. If you wish to comment on that to someone, say it to whoever said it. It wasn't me, so please don't use that to refute me.

And my only point in mentioning the Internet is to say that if nearly everything out there says one thing, it's hard to refute it...especially when you consider the fact that "official" sources tend to be somewhat questionable themselves - as evidenced by the fact that there's no set length for so-called Super Star Destroyers.

Much of the Internet information comes from role-playing guides which, I admit, are questionable. But, as I said, so are other "official" sources like the Essential Guides.

Jes

 

Jesina_Dreis:

No need to get offended by what I said. I was merely using the MC-85 and MC-100 as examples of fan based speculation that is so common that people often mistake it for fact.

As to the fact that most internet sources state that Home One was in fact larger, that really doesn't matter. I could create any source that I want and put it on the web.

Listen, to be honest, I am of the opinion that Home One may in fact be larger than 1,200 meters. But, when it comes to what is the official policy, my opinion means nothing. Until someone amongst the powers at be changes it, Home One will officially remain 1,200 meters in length, whether we agree with it or not.

So, as far as the people at LFL are concerned, Home One and the other Mon Cal cruisers were the largest Mon Cal made warships in the Rebel fleet.

--Adm. Nick

 

At the Dolodrums rendezvous in Wraith Squadron, Home One is called a Mon Cal MC80 Star Cruiser. At that time, it was the first time we saw a "MC" designation for a Star Cruiser in a novel.

 

Mara didnt die did she?

 

AdmiralNick
As to the fact that most internet sources state that Home One was in fact larger, that really doesn't matter. I could create any source that I want and put it on the web.
I'm well aware of the faults that accompany using internet sources. I'm also aware of the potential for one person getting information from a mistaken source, and then the cycle going further from there.

I'm only using the Internet sources to confirm what I, myself, read in print sources a couple of years ago that I cannot remember the titles to. I know this is the information I read. My apologies for not having access to the actual sources - I no longer spend time with the person who had them and cannot afford them myself.

My point in mentioning the abundance of Internet sources that support the information that I gave was simply that they vastly outnumber the assertions of a 1200-meter length. That information had to come from somewhere, and as someone who is experienced with extensive research, I can point out the fact that the other information (weaponry, etc.) was NOT the same in all the sources that I found, which suggests that they were not all stemming from the same source - though they all agreed on the length and number of starfighters. That does not, of course, mean that they are correct. It's just something to think about.

Home One and the other Mon Cal cruisers were the largest Mon Cal made warships in the Rebel fleet.
I never contested that Home One was not the largest. I was merely trying to confirm that. My apologies for getting involved in a conversation in which I was apparently not welcome. And no, I do not mean you. I appreciate your civility, and merely wish that others on this board had some of their own.


GrandAdmiralJello
Home One has three less guns. Please don't try and tell me that it's way she has more fighters, because that's absolutely ridiculous and no where suuported in fact.
You'll please note I said "supposed to," which was intended to indicate that I had nothing but what I'd heard to support that. My apologies if I was not clear enough for you to understand that.

He was using them as examples, if you'd notice. Don't get all huffy.
I was not getting "huffy;" I was merely defending myself and setting the record straight.

Appeal to popularity. You're jumping on the bandwagon, miss, and that's a no-on.
Actually, no I wasn't. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't presume to know what I'm thinking. Thank you.

It's nice that you've got such a sense of importance, though.
Well, let me just say I was warned that people on this board have an inflated sense of their own importance. While I'm flattered that you seem to want to include me in your little club by mentioning my own "sense of importance" I'd just as soon stay out of it. Thanks.

And fyi, my comments are meant with all due respect. I just find that sometimes fans seem to think very highly of their opinions, when they're just that: opinions.
You seem to have voiced a few of your own opinions. And as far as your comments being meant with due respect, I question if you have an understanding of the meaning of the words. Because you are sorely lacking in civility and respect.


With that, I will withdraw and return to other boards where people are far more tolerant of newcomers, and actually understand how to debate with civility. AdmiralNick, I thank you again for being reasonable and civil.

 

Got to love the fact that despite the fact that the MC80 is always shown as the winged type from ROTJ that the complete different Home One is also included.

As for the fact that Home One carries 10 squads of fighters compared to the 3 squads of the usual MC80s and a similiar number of guns you have to remember that Home one would be more massive then the winged type because of its cylindrical shape even if the two ships are the same length, the extra volume would make it possible for more fighters.

The design and shape mean a lot, the MC80b is the same length as the MC80s but can carry 8 squads is an example of this.

 

Consider this: Star Cruiser guns are concentrated in clusters, not spread out all over. You're confining the system circuits and power generators in specific locations.

So to with Home One. It's a fighter carrier, not outright combat cruiser. The fighters are its basic weaponry.

That doesn't excuse the Quasar Fire from having a measely two guns.

 

HomeOne is 3.8 kilometers long and there are at least three of her kind at the Battle of Endor: HomeOne, Independance and Defiance.

 

From the tf.n Technical Commentaries.

Home One
States that Home One carries ten squadrons.
Based on information from A Guide to the STAR WARS Universe.


Dimensions: Conclusions
States that Home One is approximately 3.8km long.
Based on visual analysis of Return of the Jedi, using comparison to Corvettes, Destroyers, and Y-wings. Includes numerical data to support that conclusion.


Names of Calamari Warships
States the following in reference to Home One:
"Flagship of Admiral Ackbar during the Battle of Endor. Over two miles long, and possibily the largest known Calamarian warship."


There is a list of sources - print sources - at the bottom of the page.

All over the site are an abundance of images illustrating Home One's size in comparison to other vessels.

The site also analyzes/discusses the sizes of MC-80, MC-80a, MC-90, and MC-40 class vessels.



~Jes~

 

Correct. That's not contested at all. Moving on.

Just an observation.


So all of Saxton's measurements on the SSD jive with canon, therefore, they're accurate.

His measurements on Home One do not, however.

They do if you consider the movies to be canon even moreso than any resources.


If you'll notice, the sources refer specifically to those Cruisers with the sources cited.

If you'll notice, the Sources I was referring to are the References list at the bottom, which lists a variety of books.


For instance: Mon Delindo
a cruiser belonging to the Mon Remonda in Han Solo's campaign against Warlord Zsinj. [X-Wing: Solo Command]

Note that Home One does not have any sources next to it, and therefore, the length measurements in it are not corroborated with legitimate sources.

That is merely referring to the books or games where the ships are introduced. I read it to understand that he takes for granted that people know where Home One came from.


It'd be nice if Home One was larger, since it SEEMS to be in the movie--but the information clearly states that she is not.

Many would argue that the way it looks in the movie is what should be taken as fact. I've seen hundreds of arguments that the movies are canon and everything else is just extra - that anything the contradicts the movies is wrong. And, granted, as far as the movies are concerned, we don't know the camera angles or distances, but I think it all depends on what people believe to be the final word.


She's also far underpowered for a ship that's supposedly over three times longer than the standard MC80. She's just roughly equal to the much smaller ISDII.

The site offers a suggestion that that's a mistake though, granted, it's by no means supportable.


~Jes~

 

As Genghis12 once pointed out ages ago, in certain scenes, Tydirium appears to be larger than the Death Star.

That's an obvious camera-distance issue. And, you'll notice, I pointed out that we don't know camera distances so interpretations of the movies can be deceiving.


The movie is canon.

Your/my/Saxton's/Bob's interpretations are not.

All I'm saying is that Saxton uses convincing numerical data and just as errors can be committed in movies, errors can be committed in books. Yes, the Essential Guides say one thing, but I believe there have been other errors pointed out elsewhere in those guides. I can't think of anything off the top of my head and admittedly have no desire to go back and look, especially since I don't have access to the guides myself.

I know interpretations differ, but Saxton offers numerical data to support his, even if it does contradict the books. The books have contradicted each other. I'll head to Barnes and Noble at some point to see if I can find one of the thousand or so resource books that don't all agree.


Yes, but only those books that are directly cited within a particular section.

Actually, Works Cited include sources that aren't always cited in the text. And, even if it has been cited in the text, materials in Works Cited are often used elsewhere in the text where they weren't directly cited.

I just spent a semester reading and reviewing professional political journal articles. Doing professional "Works Cited"s sucks.


I showed you an example. Your first link was also an example, where the Guide to the SW Universe was specifically stated as a specific source for that specific bit of information. The references on the bottom is a Works Cited list.

Nothing was cited for Home One's length.

The Mon Delindo is cited from Solo Command, even though the only time it was mentioned outside of that section was in the credits themselves at the very beginning. That's a listing of ships and where they first appeared, nothing more. Solo Command does little more than mention the Mon Delindo.


Dr. Saxton is a professional, and his work follows a professional format. Nothing was cited for the length of the ship, therefore, none of the sources in the Works Cited list support that. They refer to other parts of the document.

Read above what I said about Works Cited lists. Also, he does, essentially, cite his information about the length - the movie Return of the Jedi.


Dr. Saxton is a professional and has cited everything where it is appropriate. He does not take anything for granted.

I should not have said "takes for granted." At the same time, however, he's made it clear throughout the course of the commentaries that Home One comes from Return of the Jedi. And that movie does appear in his Works Cited.


Now... your last sentence is interesting. Is it your belief that a person's perceptions/beliefs/interpretations are the final words? If so, by nature, they cannot be canon--since that refers to a single, authoritative fact. It's also in contradiction to stated canon policy.

No, I'm merely saying that if people choose to believe that the movie outweighs numbers in a book that uses as its background the movie, then they have that right. It is entirely respectable to use the movie as the basis for your beliefs.

There was an "official" ranking of the various components of the Star Wars universe (books, movies, games, guides, etc) on StarWars.com a few years back. Movies are the most canon.

And if you look at images in which the ship being compared with Home One is in front of Home One, then that ship will look larger than it actually is in comparison to Home One. By default, that means that Home One would have to be at the very least the number of times larger than the comparison vessel as it appears, if not more. Pictures don't lie.

If you choose not to put stock in an interpretation of the movies, that's fine.

 

o my god, ive aroused the fleet junkies!

 

Yeah...Nice job RebelScum. What a way for me to be introduced to the Lit board.


That's not how I've been instructed. If a work is not cited, why is it in the list of Works Cited? What you say may be true of Bibliographies, but it defies the definition of a Works Cited.

That gets into a discussion of MLA, APA, etc styles.

And I can tell you as a political science and accounting double major - in which APA style is prominent, lists of sources (Works Cited) include things that the paper doesn't even refer to. I know of a psychology professor who was sued because his thesis student didn't cite in her Works Cited a work by someone that neither student nor instructor had ever heard of, who published work SIMILAR to the student's. It's complicated and technical, and Works Cited includes anything used as a resource, even if not directly quoted or paraphrased. Often, Works Citeds have sources listed in them that are not referred to elswhere in the work.



Right, so how does it justify the length of Home One?

It doesn't. But neither does it justify the length of any other ship. That list isn't a technical source list...it's an appearance list...there's a difference



So show me the part where he tells us that someone in the movie tells us that Home One is 3.8km long.

Oh, wait, it's his interpretation of camera shots. Oops.

But then there's the fact that everything, really, is an interpretation....but that's a whole other discussion entirely.



Belief. Bingo.

Believes are not by nature, true, nor are the knowledge.

Knowledge, by the epistemological definition, is justified true belief.

Believes themselves don't cut it in discourse. Believe what you want, but you can't use it to justify or prove anything.

Especially not when it contradicts canon.

I think he justified it quite well, actually.



Ever heard of an optical illusion?

Ever taken a picture in the middle of a traintrack?

Ever taken a picture of a mountain far away with a person close to the camera?

Sorry, you're wrong.

Ever heard of evidential matter in the form of photographs used to prosecute crimes?

And as for the mountain-person example you use, I addressed that in my last post.

The photos used on that site are not optical illusions.



No, I don't think so. We do disagree, but I am firm that you cannot justify your beliefs to others.

I, can, however--since mine have a canonical basis to them.

My beliefs are thus: follow the canon policy of LFL. Whatever the latest canonical sources say, I'll follow. If a book was published tomorrow that said that Home One was 3,800m long or 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 E 9999999999 meters long, I'd believe that too.

We have a justice system built on the "reasonable person" standard. It is reasonable to assume, given the movies, that Home One is substantially larger than others, despite what the Essential Guide says. It would be unreasonable to believe this: 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 E 9999999999 meters. Maybe I'm looking at it from a legal perspective ingrained in me by four years of political/legal education, but that's the way I look at things. Reasonability plays a role. You're using reasonability when you point out the ship's defenses.



Since when is Dr. Saxton's interpretation an official source?

I didn't mean him, I meant the movie. Again, this goes back to your unwillingness to put stock in an interpretation. Which is fine for you...I disagree. I believe his interpretation is correct. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I don't agree with you. You aren't going to change my mind. You're welcome to try, but I believe that the Essential Guide is wrong and I will try to find a print source that refutes it.



So far, you've stated beliefs and your own opinions. I'm waiting for facts. You cannot say that your beliefs are more correct that any other. You can only say that someone else's beli