Can Lucas explain Palpatine's rise to power?

You want answers? Well....here goes: *whew*

PART I

chancellor valorum was obviously doing a pretty good job and palpatine needed to upset the applecart so he wanted to stage a little conflict in naboo. But why does he want to stage the conflict? If already a powerful Senator, obviously knowing Valorum, why go to such pains when he could as easily have waited for the clones to finish, *then* move in?

Originally from Naboo, Palpatine had a controlled environment from which he could stage his crisis. He knew (at least he thought he knew) the personality and pacifism of the royalty, and figured that this staged crisis would be a ?slam dunk? means of generating a sympathy vote for him to enter the office.

he knows and understands the political system and therefore knows that someone like amidala *should* any plans with *should* as opposed to *will* ain't a good plan fold easily and submit to signing a treaty - this is the tale he spins to the unknowing viceroy to get him to agree with it, thus making the viceroy think that he is gaining control of a planet with little fuss. And exactly why does the Trade Federation have a desire to control Naboo? The film never says Naboo has particular resources *so rare or valuable* the Trade Federation goes against the body of an entire Galactic Republic, and at least one of the Neimodians knows about Jedi, who work for said Republic

True. Lucas never gives us insight into the blockade. We are only left to conjecture. That may disappoint you, but allow me to give my opinion on the events and provide reason why Lucas? lack of an explanation is a good thing.

A short time before the events of TPM, the Senate is under heavy negotiations over a variety of economic trade issues. The ?greedy? Trade Federation was in a position to demand more freedom (ie. a desire to impose higher taxes to their buyers, and/or a desire to demand a greater value on their goods, thereby creating a larger ? and perhaps more unfair ? trade surplus). These negotiations, ironically, had a specific relation to Palpatine?s planet of Naboo. Being a stopping point along one of these disputed trade routes, it was the quiet and unassuming planets like Naboo that would be most susceptible to the detrimental effects to a questionable outcome of these trade negotiations.

Chancellor Valorum, in the interest of the common good, (and one of Naboo?s strongest supporters as stated by Amidala), likely stepped in and negotiated a settlement that would seriously hinder the economic advances of the Trade Federation. Valorum probably went to great lengths to ensure a peaceful settlement that would be most fair for everyone. He was very proud of his diplomatic skills to resolve the dispute, and probably used this issue to boost his political career for a second term as chancellor.

In an act of protest, under the coaxing of a Sith master, the Trade Federation felt that creating a trade embargo above the helpless planet of Naboo along one of their trade routes would create the type of alarm that would require Naboo to bend to their demands. Nothing would get in or out without the TF sniffing it first. By blockading other states who may be ?unfairly? benefiting from the latest trade dispute (if Sidious? plan were to carry out as originally planned, Naboo would not have been the only planet to fall), the TF can ensure that any beneficiaries of this settlement will be hurt. (After all, they are greedy, remember?) Valorum, in return, had a vested interest in keeping anything controversial that may arise out of this settlement from leaking out, as he was already in a precarious position being ?mired down by baseless accusations of corruption.? Any controversy would be a political disaster for him. That is why he was required to ?secretly dispatch two Jedi Knights? in order to bring this turmoil to a quiet, but immediate conclusion.

Yet you can see, that even with this rather simple explanation, Lucas would have

 

PART II

palpatines end:
create the clones (ordered after TPM) we dont know if he posed as sifodias or not probably find out EP 3) we probably wont. Ep3 shapes up to have even more questions impossible to answer without implausible leaps of logic and EU. Why didn't Palpatine order the clones ten years before TPM?

Baby steps, my friend. That is the essence of the Sith and the reason why they are the ?phantom menace?. What if his initial plan failed? What good would a newfound army be for him if he can?t attain a position high enough to actually utilize it?

Did he *know* that battle droids were only 22% efficient so he waited ten years? Why not clone a Sith Lord, or a rogue Jedi? Why not himself?

Obviously, if he cloned himself, he would be implicating himself in the nefarious endeavor. Wouldn?t get very far, would he? And why would he multiply Force-sensitive beings who provide the only real threat to his chancellorship? All he needs are bodies to make his little ?conflict? a reality.

How come the Kaminoans continue to produce clones for ten years without hearing a word from SifoDyas, or why do they not raise even one cgi eyebrow when ObiWan appears to know nothing? Why are the cloners doing their job in secret? Whom else do they clone for and why?

Well?.Long Neck was taken aback a bit when he had to explain his understanding of who Syfo-Dias was. Obviously, the negotiations and terms of this agreement were handled as inconspicuously as possible. You think whoever it was (likely Dooku) told Long Neck?!: ?Now?..this army?s a big deal. I want the Council given updates bi-weekly. Make sure Yoda can track your progress. He loves this idea. I hear he?s drafting charts for this gay plan as we speak to present to the Senate tomorrow!?

Silly?

Remember, these cloners are loners ? out beyond the Rishi Maze. They work for whoever has the biggest pocketbook. That?s their only investment in the project. Awfully convenient for a Sith. Doncha think?

Bashers?..

dookus end:
convince the viceroy (who has one of the larger contingents of droid armies in the galaxy) to side with him. viceroy only asks for amidala's death, hence the assassination attempts. So, in essence, AOTC is about Gunray's wish for Amidala to be dead. After ten frickin years, he begins this vengeance attempt. Why not earlier? Why bother at all- he's still the viceroy.

Those ten years were not a walk in the park.

SIO BIBBLE: It's outrageous that, after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still the Viceroy of the Trade Federation. I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis.

COUNT DOOKU: The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help. He told me everything.

It isn?t until he?s back on his feet, with moral support from Dooku, that he has the will and incentive to take her out again. Essentially, the Neimoidians are portrayed as greedy, smarmy cowards out for their own selfish well-being. Padme?s assassination attempt is the McGuffin that starts the whole mystery unrolling. Who would have thought that the chain of events in AOTC would ultimately lead directly to the onset of the Clone War? Ingenious storytelling made famous by Alfred Hitchcock?.

why use zam?
i suspect palpatine wanted anakin as an apprentice ever since he crossed paths with him in TPM thus pairing the two together (which is why he asked for obi wan kenobi) palpatine thought that perhaps in padmes presence he may learn the power that emotions wield and thus prove easier to seduce to the dark side. Uh?
since viceroy wanted amidala dead dooku had to present him with genuine assassination attempts for him to hang around - remember the viceroy was rogered once so this time you'd think he was extra careful. If he really wants her dead. Now really. Why not

 

Reeyees thanks for the feedback. i was going to reply to keep the arguement going but lucascop2 seemed to cover most points and i am agreeing with about 85% of his comments.

i will still stand by my opinion that palpatine thought that amidala was a hard ass simply because if she did sign the treaty then as far as the rest of the galaxy is concerned, a resolve (although a severly anal one) has been made. this result would have been far less effective than an actual war.

he as sidious had to keep up the facade of wanting the treaty signed to the TF to show that he was always on their "side"

 

Interesting thread,

One thing that has been buggin me is why the Jedi did so little between TPM and AotC and esp. regarding Nute Gunray.
After TPM the jedi know the sith are back and they would surely suspect the TF being in league with the sith, given Maul presence on Naboo. So the natural thing to to would be to question Nute about the sith, who else is there, who is he, what was the plan, how did they contact you etc. Given how big a coward Nute is, I would expect him to talk very quickly.

Now, from AotC is seem clear that this was not done and the question is why? Either the jedi did not think of it which makes them very stupid. Or they were unable to question Nute. But how is this acomplished?
The sith were a dangerous enemy to the jedi and, since the last big war in the republic centered around the sith, to the republic as well.
The jedi are the guardians of the republic and have lots of respect but why would they not be allowed to question Nute? If the court or some official tried to stop them would the jedi not get suspicsious?
If it became clear to the jedi that someone was doing all he could to keep Nute from talking then that should raise red flags.
The sith might be the biggest threat to the republic for a thousand years and they are not allowed a very simple thing like questioning a suspect?

Either explaination sounds odd to me, the first makes the jedi very foolish and in the second the jedi should have smelled a rat.

Regards
Nordom

 

Agree. When I go over this in my mind, the only thing I come up with is that the Jedi are too reliant on mind reading for their detective work, therefore blatantly miss all obvious clues that an average dumb person would see as the key to the mystery.
("=" just means "connected to" in my diagram)

Sith=TF (TPM)

TF=Seperatists (AOTC)

Jango=Clones (AOTC)

Jango=Seperatists(AOTC)

Clones=Seperatists (AOTC)

Seperatists=Sith (AOTC)

Clones=Sith (AOTC)

Dooku=Sith (AOTC)

 

It's not obvious at all that the clones are connected to the Separatists, because Jango is a bounty hunter and is loyal to noone. Dooku and Tyranus could be two entirely unrelated persons for all the Jedi know.

 

Of course its not obvious to the Jedi, Lars, but its plain to the viewer - as the PT isnt meant to be a mystery film for the movie patron to unravel, but an exposition of the how and why to certain facts that we already know, especially in the case of Palpatine.

ANH
1. In the OT there is an Empire in control of the Galaxy and its nature is evil and it replaced a peaceful Republic that Stood for many centuries.
2. Darth Vader is a high ranking subordinate to the Emporer of the Galaxy.
3. Luke Skywalkers' father was once a Jedi and close friends with Obi-Wan Kenobi and was " murdered " by Darth Vader
4. Darth Vader was once a Jedi Knight.
5. Obi-Wan Kenobi was once the teacher of Darth Vader.
6. The Jedi Order was destoyed.
7. Bail Organa of Alderaan is Leias' " father "
8. Luke Skywalker is under the care of his aunt and uncle until the time of their death.

ESB
1. Yoda once headed the High Council of the Jedi Order.
2. The Emporer is also force sensitive.
3. Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person.

RotJ
1. Leia is the twin sister of Luke.
2. The Emporer seduced Anakin to the darkside and manipulated him to betray his order.
3. Luke has no memory of his mother.

What we the SW fans were left to ponder was HOW did the Emporer gain control of the Galaxy, WHO was Anakins' lover/wife that he sired the two protagonists of the OT with, HOW did Vader end up in a bionic suit, and finally how did the twins wind up where they are in the beginning of the OT - and thats it - thats the PT. And kudo's to Lucas for not taking the easy way out on this by making Palpatine a tyrant that assaulted the Galaxy with an army of storm troopers right from the beginning, but choosing to show him slowly and methodically remove each obstacle to reach his goal while under the guise of a respected politician over the course of two decades ( that we see ). We the viewer know the end result of the PT and in my opinion I believe that Lucas has done an admirable job of showing the rise of Palpatine, the fall of Anakin Skywalker, the birth of Darth Vader and the near annihilation of the Jedi. The SW fans are bystanders in this trilogy - treated to a history lesson of the GFFA - not vicariously living in it and moving through it as we did in the OT.

 

deleted double post

 

The SW fans are bystanders in this trilogy - treated to a history lesson of the GFFA - not vicariously living in it and moving through it as we did in the OT.
Yes, but even if we WERE seeing the PT without knowing anything about the OT, we would think Yoda's use of the Clone Army would be a flaw in the script's logic. We are clouded by knowing what is going to happen. One moment, they are trying to discover who lied and created the army without consent from the good guys. We are also aware, as they are, of a plan to dominate the world. 2+2 = "something's very fishy" not "around the survivors create" and "very good, VERY good."

I suppose this is why people joka about Yoda seeming like a Sith in the PT. Hehe.

If you knew that there were Seperatists planning to take over the galaxy with multiple armies, wouldn't you think that a clone army which was illegally ordered for the republic using the name of a dead Jedi would be one of the parts of that Army? Even though it wasn't, the script would need to deal with the character's suspicion of that in order to be realistic. Instead, there are no such concerns or questions.

 

Well, it certainly would be realistic, but it wouldn't be more realistic. The movie is perfectly realistic the way it is.

 

So the question is: If I met George today and asked him, "Can you explain to me Palpatine's rise to power?", including subquestions such as "Why did Jango give the kouhuns to Zam?", "Why did Palpy want Obi-Wan to guard Padmé?", "Why did Count Dooku tell Obi-Wan the truth?" etc etc,

Well, I can answer most of those just off the top of my head, so I'm sure Lucas can.

1) Palpatine manipulated the system to get into power. The most recent and obvious one was using the developments on Geonosis and Kamino to empower himself behind the scenes. The emergency powers aren't even the big thing. Now he is control of an army that will do whatever he wants, and he has a whole war to fight to manipulate the Republic. In Episode III, we see that since he has the power, now he jus tneeds the sympathy. He's had a taste of it with Naboo, now he arranges for himself to be kidnapped. Excuse to up security all over, crack down on insurgents, and demolish the opposition.

2) Zam didn't kill Padme on the first try, so why wouldn't Jango give her the kohouns? Jango was there as an intermediary, and probably given ordrs to make sure he was seen.

3) Palpy has plans. Obi-Wan was the most promising adult in the Jedi Order, so what a great chance to off him. Or you could go with the "He Wants to Bring ANakin closer" explanation.

4) Dooku is not a bad guy at heart. He wanted to off Palpatine.

 

I think it's unbelievably arrogant to claim to know what another person knows. Two points for Ree Yees:

• George Lucas is smarter than you when it comes to story telling
• You are not psychic

Here's a question for you - If George Lucas couldn't explain Palpatine's rise to power, why is it in the movies to begin with? In fact, seeing that's a major element of the prequels, why is he making them if he can't explain it?

What's weird is that the base for your argument seems to be "Fans can't properly explain it, therefore George Lucas can't explain it". Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.

 

I've actually thought about what I posted, and I decided that some people might actually be having real problems comprehending what events in the movie work towards his rise to power, and how. So I created this logic path to aid you. Whenever something happens, follow it and see how it applies!

[image=http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mojosdad/logic_path.jpg]

 

Now that's dedication! But my complaint is about Yoda's unrealistic complacency with the clone army, given their suspicious collaborators - A dead jedi and a bounty hunter - during a time of other secret armies being amassed for galactic domination.

 

See my response near the top of page 2.

The story's not over either. There's a little something called Episode III that is due out in May of '05. Might want to put it on your calendar.

 

OBI-WAN: (V.O.) Yes, Master. They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?

MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.

YODA: Into custody, take this Jango Fett. Bring him here. Question him, we will.

OBI-WAN: (V.O.) Yes, Master. I will report back when I have him.

The hologram of OBI-WAN fades.

YODA: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

 

The second that Palpatine is revealed as the true heavy in the OT was the second that fans should have realized that if there was going to be a PT ( which was heavily rumored in the late seventies and early eighties ) that a HUGE part of it was going to involve Palpatines rise to power - and guess what? - IT IS!, its just not tied together yet and Ill refer to a previous poster in this thread by saying that we still have one more movie to go here. Everyone relax, its gonna come off just fine.

 

What you guys aren't realizing is that some people (Ree Yees, for instance) don't WANT it to come off just fine.

 

I guess that makes them trolls then?.....

I wonder if LFL gets a good smirk from all those bashers in their li'l "sanctuary"......

 

I doubt they really give them much thought, really.

All I know is that I get a bit annoyed by it from time to time.... You'd think people would eventually grow up and move on. You don't see this kind of complaining with other stories.

 

What you guys aren't realizing is that some people (Ree Yees, for instance) don't WANT it to come off just fine.

I guess that makes them trolls then?.....

I wonder if LFL gets a good smirk from all those bashers in their li'l "sanctuary

You'd think people would eventually grow up and move on.


Isn't there a rule around here that goes something like:
"Discuss the films not the posters." ?

g

 

Good.

You can start.

(I've already answered plenty of questions and discussed several issues on this topic.)

 

You know, it's incredible. I figured out that Sidious=Palpatine on my own (and saw that many others I knew had not) I've pondered many of these factors in my head, read what you guys posted, agreed with most of it, and can't wait to see ROTS.

And after all that, the prequel-bashers still say that there's "no storyline" in Eps I & II and that the CGI "took away from the story". Sheesh.

If people would just lay awake a few nights thinking about movies like I have and I'm sure you have, then I'm sure they'd appreciate them more. Kind of like how I've thought about it a LOT and wouldn't have done The Matrix Revolutions any other way.

B-wing master

 

Neither would I. I have to see those movies again.

 

MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

But the situation is a little different when Yoda sees that Palpatine is basically lying to the Senate, saying he will create a Grand Army. Yoda KNOWS there is already one created, and watches Palpatine lying to everyone. Yet he does not resist using the army, he goes there with no commands to do so, and uses it.