Full Series Can someone explain the Lott Dod thing to me?

Well not insult or anything but your knowledge of worldhistory don't seem to be very big
There is many crazy states that have existed with completely crazy ways to rule a state so i don't know if any state have had representatives of megacorporations in their government but certainly there could've been.... I'm not expert in history of politics either but Fascist Italy had some kind of "corporationist" rule i've read.....even though those corporations were not exactly the same thing they were some kind of professional groups just called 'corporations'......
but anyway i dunno if it had anything to do with that but there was a crazy state at least..... anyway Trade Federation owns many worlds so Lott Dod is representative of geographical area as well- Cato Neimoidia, Deko Neimoidia, Koru Neimoidia, Neimoidia...... same possibly with Nix Card being representative of Muunilinst, Aargau, Mygeeto....

And as said- East India Company was one real world trading power that controlled state of it's own India and it definitely is closest to Trade Federation that you can find from history- it has own army and all....Wal-Mart has no army of it's own i would say .....EIC didn't have direct representatives in the government but many lobbyed ones so technically it was represented there..... in SW TF just has senator but as you pointed out it's crazy- but so was nazism, fascism and communism still they were basis of many realworld states and there is still communist systems there .....

But Star Wars is fiction- there is no Death Star, no Force, no Jedi, no Sith in real history so why to whine about lack of Trade Federation in real history?

Concept of Trade Federation is not 100 percent realistic but neither is anything else in SW ....

 

I am aware that I know very little about world history compared to my knowledge of American history, which is why I said no republic has ever worked like that that I'm aware of.

Haha so you don't know either then???

Fascism and a republic are two different forms of government. I didn't say all governments that I'm aware of, I said all republics that I'm aware of.

Right, but a republic wouldn't have representatives of all those places plus extra representatives for business interests from those places. That's like saying a Senator from Wal-Mart would make sense in the U.S. Senate because Wal-Mart has their headquarters in a certain state. That state already has a Senator, and that's not how a republic works. At least, I'm not aware of any republic that has ever worked that way.

Right, I already mentioned that in republics industrial interests have ways of making their desires heard including lobbying, but not a direct representative who gets to vote alongside all of the representatives of geographic areas. If India was run by a business, wasn't it then not a republic?

Nazism, fascism, and communism are not examples of republics.

P.S. There has never been a true Marxist state, just self-declared communist governments that were actually examples oligarchies. All "communist" countries that exist today fall under that description. A top-down hierarchy rule with huge socioeconomic class divisions is not at all what Karl Marx had in mind.

Haha, ya don't say. I already posited one possible explanation, maybe you missed it? I don't think it's impossible to explain in-universe. It just seems counter-intuitive to the whole idea of a republic as I know it.

 

But whole idea of this corporationthing is that Republic is not what it once was- it is not working institution not real democracy- it have became real circus with clowns like Lott Dod fooling around..... that is what Palpatine needs to make Empire- abuse the democracy and after making a mistake to give senator to Trade Federation it is wonderful way to control the senate and disable it when democracy they think they are serving no longer exists-

Technically even with TF there- senate works like it should- one vote for trade federation didn't really make the system completely undemocratic- they would have that vote anyway by bribing one senator- they have openly agreed that TF is so important to the Republic it needs to have one vote in important matters.... Wal-Mart is not that important to U.S. (neither it has army ) of course that one vote is not enough and all bureucrats are "on the payroll of the Trade Federation" so senate is deeply corrupted- very deeply.....

that's the problem... if there would be one vote and TF-senator would say "let's remove the taxation of our trade routes..." or something- no one would agree it would still work as democracy.... majority -which is usually right- would decide for their people there would be one senator deciding for one corporation but alone he would've had only little chance to change things- of course it is bit unfair towards citizens but on the other hand TF is very important to them also.....

Republic is interstellar state.... something i don't think can be found from our history- and spacetravel and trading goods is essential to it's survival- getting from one planet to another is not like getting from one city to another or from one county to another- not everyone has starships of their own.... some planets have became very dependent on TF and guilds like it (Mandalore comes to mind) they no more have agriculture of their own or other supplies of food- all come off-world
that is situation very hard to compare with anything on Earth..... that's why TF's role in-universe makes sense to me.....

 

Yeah I don't think anything you said there necessarily contradicts what I was saying. Make sure you didn't miss my last point.

 

Well according to wikipedia "A republic is a state under a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, retain supreme control over the government" So bizarre corporaterule or not.... it can still be republic so TF's odd role doesn't negate the Republic's form of government itself.. there is many republics on Earth and some states that call themselves "republics" even though really aren't republics according to generally accepted definition of republic.... so i agree that Republic is not like republic should be..... but..... isn't that the point of this era..... to show how Republic changes to the evil Empire...?

 

Haha, dude, I don't know if there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on here or what, but I have posited that exact hypothesis multiple times in this thread, and you seem to keep missing it somehow.

 

I seem to be stepping into this half way through, however here are my thoughts...


Basically the whole premise of trade unions and corporations getting representation in the Galactic Senate is used as a device to demonstrate the corruption and unnecessary influence which unions have over the Republic. I wouldn?t try to look for too many parallels within the real world ? while there may be a few ? because many ?Republics? haven?t reached this state of extreme corruption. How is this done? Likely because entire worlds get enveloped in a singular business and are thus represented with their respective worlds ? either that or they could simply gain so much influence they are given representation ?because of their importance?.

It is also important to note that the GR isn?t exactly a Republic in the same sense as the USA. It?s essentially a federalized UN where the states have the semi-independence over their jurisdictions. While it is still corruption (and should never happen) it is more easily believable for the World Bank to be given representation in the UN Parliament than some US Corporation in the US Senate. It doesn?t necessarily legitimize the Republics status as a ?true Republic? however, rather, it is simply a corrupted system. It is still a Republic in every sense ? it has simply been corrupted to this state. Essentially that is the very reason the Confederacy, ironically, wants to declare independence.

As for the Trade Federation remaining neutral ? it is certainly possible and legitimate. Firstly Nute Gunray is the Victory of the Trade Federation up until the end of Attack of the Clones. Up until that time the Trade Federation was merely a group protesting the Republics new taxation laws which interrupted their business and as such supported the Separatist cause. However when war erupted it was realised that they couldn?t bully the Republic into self-destruction because of the Clone Army. The Trade Federation obviously panicked, realised that they could profit from both sides of the war (if they were seen as neutral) and broke away from Nute Gunray and declared him?extremist? thus allowing neutrality.

The public view of this would have been that the reason there are ?Trade Federation Battle Droids? fighting for the Separatists is because that Nute Gunray allied them with himself before the Trade Federation apparently broke away from him. As such, publicly, you now have the Trade Federation and Nute Gunray (a breakaway who decided to go to war instead of remain neutral) as two separate entities. With no proof of the facts the Trade Federation seems neutral, and until there is proof the Republic can?t really do anything. Also, if the Trade Federation has monopoly over their section of commerce, the Republic might be attempting to avert an economic disaster.

As for why there is a neutrality Treaty for the Trade Federation; this is likely also a result of monopolisation. The Trade Federation, over time, eventually gained control of all the major trade routes, ports etc, and as such gained monopoly over their area of commerce. I would also imagine the same has been done for the other trade groups (Intergalactic Banking Clan, etc). Because of this monopoly a treaty needed to be put in place were in, if war did arrive, the Trade Federation was capable of remaining neutral. This would avert the scenario where-in a fraction of a war is left economically stranded. It?s essentially a precautionary treaty I doubt the Republic ever thought would be implemented.

I would also put forth the idea that, to the wider galaxy, the Treaty signed in Attack of the Clones by the corporations was secretive in nature. As such to the wider galaxy the Confederacy of Independent Systems is a democratic state (at least that would be what the Confederacy protests). However there is a secret agenda which involves the control of the corporation?s (unbeknownst to the Separatist Senate). The reasoning for the Battle Droids is likely because that is the remnants of the ?military-build-up? before the Clone Wars

 

One thing we should remember is that TF or IGBC were not going to war in the first place- they were about to blackmail and threaten the republic with a droid army as we hear in AOTC "Plan can be considered treason"- Dooku and Sidious tricked them into this war against their intentions...

 

Yes essentially what I mean by ?they panicked?... the Trade Federation are in a mess so they essentially are trying to play both sides so they land on the right one. Ironically both rugs will be pulled out from underneath them and the Empire will fall and crush 'em like a ton of bricks...

 

would be nice to see a prequel dealing with start of the war- Lott Dod would appear in the senate and they would shout "Get the separatist" "Imprison him he is the traitor!" etc.

and Lott would be like "There have been a misunderstanding TF has nothing to do with this" and everyone in-universe would be as confused as viewers are now

or something during the battle of Muunilinst- must have been quite a hit to IGBC-Republic relationship when chancellor allowed jedi to attack "neutral world" and seppie-ties of Muunilinst still were obvious.....

 

Like this:

COLLECTIVE SENATE: The corporations are traitors. All officials must be arrested immediately. This is high treason.

LOT DODD: This is a misunderstanding. We merely supported the Separatist?s concerns and right to secede, however now that it is clear they are warmongers we declare neutrality. We are businessmen, not war criminals.

BAIL ORGANA: Viceroy Gunray is clearly allied with the Separatists. He is the leader of your Trade Federation. Furthermore the Separatist armies consist of Trade Federation droid units. This is proof of treason.

LOT DODD: You once again mistake us Senator. When the Trade Federation declared neutrality Nute Gunray refused such terms. He was expelled from the Trade Federation. He is an extremist. The Droid armies you speak of are the result of a military build-up commissioned by Nute Gunray without the knowledge of the Trade Federation on Geonosis. These armies were taken by him once war was declared.

BAIL ORGANA: However we have files suggesting you have not closed your dealing with the Separatists.

LOT DODD: Treaty?s allow us to do this Senator. Because of our monopoly we have the right to neutrality and freedom to trade with both sides. After all the Republic needs out trade for face economic catastrophe. We have broken no rules.

PALPATINE: Senator Dodd is right. There is no evidence of any Trade Federation treason.

 

There was an episode where Bail Organa was attempting to negotiate aid from Toydaria for the people of Ryloth. Lott Dod argued against him. If he was a loyal member of the Republic, this would be a blatant act of treason, as he is undermining the efforts of the Republic. Ergo, he is an enemy, and should have been arrested immediately.

 

who arrests him if half of the senate is bribed to support him- i want to see episode where Palpy gets more power and Lott and others are kicked out from senate and arrested.... Lott was there as representative of TF so he didn't break rules- he didn't really commit a treason but that is because of foolish laws Republic has- so yes he is enemy of the democracy but Republics laws are crappy and there is no proof to arrest him because current laws are instead forbidding the investigation of TF's dealings that would reveal it all- republic is destroying itself... but that is the general idea of Palpatine during this era.....

 

I give the idea to retcon the Trade Federation's ostensible neutrality points for effort, but it definitely could have been executed better.

I think it was an attempt on George's part to add some dimension to the Separatist agenda outside of strict corporate greed and underline the often touted claim that the Republic is corrupt.

 

It's mentioned in Cloak of Deception that the reason the TF and the other guilds (each of which is a megacorporation) have representatives in the Senate is because they directly control entire sectors of planets (and can clearly afford to build private militaries). The treaty in TPM that would have 'legitimatized' the TF occupation of Naboo is an example of how this could happen though, of course, most TF signatories were 'voluntary'.
So, like everyone else is pointing out, they're like the East India company only moreso.

No one's tried to arrest Lott Dod because he's got a legal fiction protecting him. It's a really thin one that few, if anyone, really believes but there's no proof of any treason on Dod's part. And anyway, you'd need a lot of proof to convict someone of treason and even then it's unlikely to go through given the unwieldy and corrupt Republic judicial system (which couldn't even convict Gunray after the invasion of Naboo).

Really what's always surprised me the most about the prequals is that Amidala says in TPM that "the Republic no longer functions"; she's right, it doesn't work. But then, as a Senator, she tries to make it work anyway. Though it's never explicitly said, I think the only reason Amidala didn't join the CIS (she certainly had plenty of reasons to join) is because of Gunray.

 

Republic is splitting two in any case but border between two factions is not clear- in AOTC republic does collapse then but republic side is far from coherent idealistic alliance it is itself split in two- there is these future imperials and future rebels there and conflict is inevitable- TCW portrayed this already nicely but didn't explain it enough...

in AOTC it is pretty clear that TF is not actual part of this separatist movement or confederacy but allies itself with them- it's said separatists would ask commerce guilds to help them if republic threatens them to join back- and that 'friends from the trade federation has promised their support' to Dooku and his separatists- so it is not new thing that TF is not same as CIS or not even officially part of it- it just provides it's army, ships and officers to support CIS-cause....

Gunray was seen conspiring with Dooku on Geonosis so it must have been hard for Dod to explain TF is neutral without saying Gunray is some kind of traitor... still i think Gunrays' companion- who is sometimes identified to be Dod sometimes Rune Haako- should indeed be Gilramos Libkath as originally intended and since he wears senatorial robes i think the best retcon would be that he is TF's representative in Separatist senate- as neutral organisation it should have guys in both senates......

 

It is also important to note that it is not uncommon for ?neutral nations? to trade between waring nations while they clearly favour a particular side of the war. During the Second World War the United States still had diplomatic and trade ties with Germany up until war was declared at the end of 1941. Companies such as Ford still traded with Germany during the early stages of the war and were only halted because of the German declaration of war against the United States. It was clear for Germany that the United States was allied to Great Britain and the western allies, however for economical mutual beneficiary purposes trade continued in some form. This is likely somewhat the same situation with the Trade Federation, GR and CIS.

 

The problem is that if he is a member of the Republic, he cannot undermine an effort directed by the Republic to one of its bases by arguing against a fellow Senator before a third party. During a session of the Senate, that is one thing, but at a meeting with an external party would constitute at the very least go over the head of the Republic delegation, treason at the worst. There really is no reason why he is still considered part of the Republic if Bail Organa has to use Jar Jar to distract him while a Republic vessel goes to resupply a Republic world. Lot Dodd should have been promptly shot after that debacle.

 

If you're saying that Dodd should be shot because his actions lead to the Jar Jar juggling scene, then I fully agree with you!

 

Lott Dod does not speak in favor of the Confederacy in 'Supply Lines', he merely counsels that a neutral party in the Clone War should remain neutral, or else the Trade Federation - a neutral party in the war, too - would seize to do business with Toydaria due to the fact that they fear the Confederacy would perceive the Trade Federation as enemies of the Confederacy.

He is allowed to do that, apparently. The Trade Federation has a right to protect its business interests, and it is allowed to do business with neutral parties and the Confederacy. But it is also still a part of the Republic, pays its taxes and behaves somewhat patriotic.

 

Bail is not guy like that who would shoot anyone- anyway Lott was there "protecting" trade between Toydaria and TF he was not representing CIS or opposing Republic- neither was Bail purely representing the senate- but jedi- it was partially unofficial assignment from that point of view- not Republic's official business actually- if senate would've been asked "do we sent negotiator for Toydaria?" it would've taken such a long time to decide everyone on Ryloth would've died-

That's why jedi asked Bail to do something like unoffical diplomatic visit- jedi are not leaders of the republic they have no power over senate- they have possibility to ask senators to help but no powers to order them around if they disagree- it was probably Palpy who sent JarJar to negotiate (that treaty wouldn't be done) Bail was diplomat so he was able to represent Republic but ultimately he was not "the Republic" not the announcer of the official view of the Republic any more than Lott Dod...

Lott Dod could've explained his actions by "protecting TF-interests" since it is his job as representative of TF- he was not saying "Don't sent aid to Ryloth" he was there saying "if you do- we may not be able to trade anymore" of course that is poor reason but still enough to keep him safe legally

 

The problem in this is that Lot Dodd is also a senator of the Republic. And it is not Alderaan that Bail is speaking on behalf of, but the Republic at large. If the Trade Federation chooses to cut off business with a Republic ally for aiding a Republic world, then any Trade Federation representative on Coruscant should have immediately been taken hostage, Lot Dodd should have been shot, the Trade Federation's assets been seized and nationalized in Republic territory and its higher-ups investigated for treason. His threat clearly spells out his disloyalty. Bail Organa is too nice. And nice guys finish last, their faces stamped into the dirt.

 

You know, I understand the confusion...

We need koonfan in here.

I remember he posted this rationalization of the whole Trade Federation thing in a certain thread (I forgot which one), and it made everybody go 'Hmmmm... that actually makes perfect sense.'

I totally forgot what it was though.

*activates a spotlight projecting the koonfan beacon*

 

(Plo's Bros logo spirals into the topic)
(NananananananaNAAAAA!)

(voiced by Adam West) What seems to be the problem?

"People are getting confused over Lott Dod!"

Well, then it's time for a rationalisation! ...Actually, I forgot what it was I posted exactly, so I'm going to start from scratch.

Background: As many have already brought up, the TF and whatnot are still in business because they're using the 'extremist' excuse.

What's PRACTICALLY happening: Lott Dod and his colleagues with the Banking Clan and Techno Union are on the payroll of Dooku (Dooku demands to 'contact Senator Lott Dod' in Supply Lines, heavily suggesting he can give him orders), and use their bureaucratic red tape and legal mumbo jumbo to stall Republic war efforts and blockade/threaten neutral or vulnerable planets (Pantora is blockaded and offered membership with the Seps, and Toydaria is given the veiled threat that their trade will stop)

What's LEGALLY happening: Neutral business entities are exercising their rights to 'negotiate' with their clients.

WHY the Republic lets it happen: By this point, one of the premises is that there are MANY worlds and/or Senators who are either in the pocket of the bureaucrats, or are heavily dependent on the Business Entities, because of the spreading corruption and growing influence of the TF and company. Selfish Senators don't want them to leave because they get kickbacks, and other worlds would suffer a collapse of their economy if they were outright ousted.

To come up with a modern analogy (not a perfect one, but it might help ), these business groups are like the business equivalent of the internet. They've gotten so big, and so convenient, that some worlds are entirely dependent on them. They have the know-how, the connections, and the resources to run a wide network, and it's under THEIR monopoly. If the Republic pushes too hard, they can easily pack up and leave, isolating and severely affecting several planets.

Additional thoughts: If they ever had sufficient reason to truly leave the Republic ("You aren't honouring your laws/our trade agreements/etc.!"), all their assets could very easily become exclusive to the Confederacy.

Why not carry out a forceful takeover?: Setting aside the arguments of "we're the good guys, we can't do that!", it certainly would be an expedient answer, though that's if you can make it airtight. With NO room for any loose ends. In the GFFA, what with Hyperspace and the Holonet, there are SEVERAL options for these guys to communicate information. Perhaps trying to cut them off is too risky, as even one loose end, and they'd plaster it all over their news networks.

e.g. Republic tries to launch hostile takeover. Trade Federation manages to get a holonet message out, a'la twitter, reporting what the Republic is up to. Business entities read holonet message. Business entities pack up and leave, or contact the Separatists for direct help.

EDIT: To be sure, this is still an awkward way to bring in the 'legal, untouchable bad guy' trope, so take what you will from it.

 

Hmmmm, that actually makes perfect sense!

He's done it again!