Characterisations: Anakin Skywalker

I still don't see how someone who is responsible for billions of deaths is remotely considered "good" at all.

 

Where are these billions? Enumerate them, please.

We know for certain that Kyp killed billions. He fired the weapon.

Vader didn't blow up Alderaan. Tarkin did. It was his watch, and he did and smacked his lips at the notion. Vader: What do you mean? Wasn't his idea.

 

That, requires extra-SW reading to get the general philosophy of that train of thought.
Not saying you have to agree with the philosophies, but see where Lucas comes from and how the SW universe apparently works in that sense.
But agreed, I don't see the billions. Tarkin blew up Alderaan. No, Vader didn't stop him, but none of us went out hunting for Osama so by the same token that Vader is guilty for not stopping another man's actions, we are guilty for every bad thing we become aware of and don't stop.
Or, it could be that individuals are responsible for individual actions and scatter blaming is put in place to absolve responsibility.

 

So Hitler and Stalin aren't mass-murderers just because their cronies did the killing? Vader had no qualms about using the Death Star on innocent populations. He could have easily stopped Tarkin. Alderaan alone had a population of a few billion I believe. He had no second thoughts about executing Order 66. In Dark Lord, he kills leads the assault on Kashyyk, killing hundreds of thousands of wookiees. Shadows of the Empire references an assault on Xizor's homeworld that killed 200,000. We still have no record of what he did in the majority of the time between RotS & ANH. I'm sick of all the sympathy Vader gets from fans. Anakin made a conscious choice to do anything to save Padme. Once Padme died, he was power hungry. Period. Anakin Pre-RotS was a very flawed, confused young man. Anakin Post-RotS was a evil man on par with the worst scum ever alive on Earth.

 

I don't understand your analogy. We failed to capture bin Laden before 9/11. The government didn't know of the plot and look the other way (unless you believe the crackpot 9/11 conspiracy theories). Vader knew Tarkin was gonna target Alderaan. He had failed to torture the info out of Leia, so he signed on to Tarkin's plan. We never have an account of him thinking back and hating himself for being complicit in the destruction. Even if you take away Alderaan, he still was directly involved in the killing of millions, at the very least.

 

*shrugs* ok
You know gangs are out there killing.
Go stop them or you too are guilty!

That's what I'm getting at, so don't lose my base argument by arguing details and semantics in an example I tried to make to illustrate my point.
The idea is, are we guilty of the crimes if we know of them and do not stop them? Or, are the people comitting the crimes alone guilty of doing the crimes?
Translate that to Vader. Is he guilty of Alderaan's destruction because he did not stop Tarkin? Some people say yes. I say no.

 

We DO NOT "know for certain" that Kyp killed billions; simply put, he shouldn't be held at fault for the actions taken by the Dark Lord Exar Kun. Sure, it was his hand that pressed the button, but it most certainly wasn't animated by his own free will.

 

So Hitler and Stalin aren't mass-murderers just because their cronies did the killing?

They were the equilavents of Palpatine, not Vader. Vader was the equivalent of one of their generals, but he wasn't answerable to no one. He was answerable to a very nasty person that had him by the you know what's.

Vader had no qualms about using the Death Star on innocent populations. He could have easily stopped Tarkin. Alderaan alone had a population of a few billion I believe.

Stopped Tarkin and then what? Go before Palps, get zapped the crap out of. The one that built the DS was Palpatine. He is who Tarkin aswered to. I am sure it was all a game. Vader wasn't above Tarkin on his own command. Does a captain stop a general's orders? No, not unless they want a court martial.


He had no second thoughts about executing Order 66.

Palpatine executed the Order and he invented it. Anakin wasn't even int he room when he gave the order. i doubtr he even knew the thing was going on.

In Dark Lord, he kills leads the assault on Kashyyk, killing hundreds of thousands of wookiees.

Yes, this is a fact.

Shadows of the Empire references an assault on Xizor's homeworld that killed 200,000.

He had to do that to stop a contagion that had gotten out. vader didn't release the contagion. it just happened. Xizor wasn't there and didn't know the circumstances. Vader was doing an undesirable job there, but he didn't botch up the planet. Some scientific installation did that.

We still have no record of what he did in the majority of the time between RotS & ANH.

I won't assume he was an angel.

I'm sick of all the sympathy Vader gets from fans. Anakin made a conscious choice to do anything to save Padme. Once Padme died, he was power hungry. Period.

Not true. He was miserable. I don't sympathize, but I understand he was confused. Wars are not clean cut. They are miserable messes of choas, split loyalties, and conflicting idealogies.

Anakin Pre-RotS was a very flawed, confused young man. Anakin Post-RotS was a evil man on par with the worst scum ever alive on Earth.

I think that's an assumption. We have no idea what he did. He's still an enigma. And that all has to do with what side of the fence your standing on.

What's going on in Isreal, whos really the aggressor here? Both are guilty and both are right and wrong in their own ways. It depends on whose side your one that you cointhe phrase evil. Was Willaim Wallace evil? He was if you were English. Was Napaleon evil? Not to his people. It's all shades. I hate this "moral relevatism", but in real life, it isn't. It's what side you're on and when sides start racking up death counts, neither are innocent. Was Mace right about Jabiim. I think not. They screwed those people. The Jedi did. The Seperatists were evil? Not to hear them tell it. They were sick of being taxed to death for nothing and not protected from corporations like the TF.

Lots of different ways to look at it. Tot he Empire, Vader was a hero. To the Jedi, he was rotten. But the story is basically told for the Jedi sympathetic POV. From the Imperial POV, much different. Bail Organa was trying to bring them down, he did start the Rebellion. In the eyes of the Empire, he was a traitor. But was he?

 

Its funny you bring up the Israel-Hezbollah conflict. Israel tries their best to avoid civillian casaulties while taking out the enemy. Hezbollah hides among civilians to maximize civilian casaulties. If Vader was leading Israel, he would march to Beirut with 200,000 stormtroopers and kill everyone to make sure no terrorist escape. Maybe i'm old-fashioned or naive, but I believe that right and wrong and good and evil are pretty concrete things. Of course there are shades of gray, but not as much as people now believe. Take any major conflict (either in real life or the GFFA) and its usually easy to see which side follows the rules of war and which side doesn't. The clone wars aren't an apt analogy because Palps was leading both sides. When that happens, good and evil can be blurred. But in a case like the Galactic Civil War, Vong war, WWII, or the current middle east conflict, its easy to make the distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys".

Regarding the Death Star, its akin to Bush saying he wants to nuke France (even though they aren't a military target) and none of his cabinet or commanders questioning the order. If Vader had an ounce of goodness left, he would have killed Tarkin to directly stop the destruction of Alderaan. That alone makes him evil to me. I guess it all depends on if you believe in universal moral concepts or not.

 

I disagree with this statement of Alderaan being the equal of France. As dislike France which never support or supplied the terrorists. While Alderaan was a founding planet and major supporter of the terrorist organization, thus could in a way be seen as legitimate target. Thus it would be more like Bush bombing a country like Iran who is helping the terrorists.

 

Um guys, have any of you read the first post of this thread?

*Note that this is for pre ROTS/suit discussion. A seperate thread will be done for Darth Vader at a later date*

ITT we talk about weeny little Annie, not the Darth.

 

Darth Vader did kill many, right now we don't have the direct proof because it's what's coming. We haven't seen Vader's "Salad Days" yet, the Dark Times, the very things that made him the infamous Sith Lord who was feared throughout the galaxy.

 

Kyp was responsable for Carida. Why? Because the whole attack was motivated by personal reasons. He went to find his brother, and when told that Zeth was dead, raged and pulled the trigger. Kun may have heightened his response, but Kyp was still making the decisions.

 

I watched ROTS last night.

I think Anakin's biggest flaws is he tries to please everyone, 100%. Which no one can do. He's just a kid, and in over his head, in many ways. Esp with Palpatine. He trusts a weasel too much. He is blind to his manipulations, realizes it much too late.

No less with Padme. She just seems impossible to please. She worries about all sorts of, IMO, unimportant things. She cares about her rep, her job, blah blah blah..... Obi-wan Obi-wan Obi-wan. I got a little irritated with that myself. Except for when she just meets him, she mentions Obi-wan in everything other meeting with Anakin.

Obi-wan: He saves his butt every three hours. He does try to gain his approval. He respects him. He takes OBi-wan's cold personality as rejection, but he's merely not demostrative. He does love him, but Anakin always wants him to be his friend, more than coworker, and with Obi-wan, he just wants to be done with everything and do new things. Anakin doesn't understandit's not a rejection, it's just wanting to move.

He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know what he really wants, it's not clearly defined. Then he gets to hear he's going to be a dad, next month, but don't tell anyone. Any young guy would have a hard time, honestly. And his biggest problem is he is too young for what people expect from him.

 

Actually a combination of being too young for what people expect of him and yet at the same time the same people that keep telling him he's "The Chosen One" and that he has this "great destiny" don't seem to know what to do with him when his headstrong nature and problems with attachment make him a less-than-"perfect" Jedi.

He -wants- to be taught. He -wants- to be guided and mentored, but none of the people around him are perceptive enough to realize that he really -is- different in -every- sense of the word. Maybe if they had realized that Anakin was not only supposed to destroy the Sith, but perhaps also to show the Jedi a "new way of doing business", they might have paid a little more attention to his situation and made some efforts to adapt.

 

Exactly. One of Anakin's main problems was his devotion to family (which incidentially never left him). Just as Padme says, he "expects too much" of himself. Eventually a ball is going to fall when you're juggling and you're going to keep the most important one afloat. To him, it was his wife. (And later son) Every thing else could be sacrificed as they had proven that they weren't as worthy to him. Even Palpatine. He never would have drawn his lightsaber on him or taken him to Mace if he didn't think different.

 

True but imagine let's say John Malkovich killing Duncan vs. Dave Chapelle in the role and tell me that the actor has nothing to do with it.

 

The main trait that characterizes Anakin pre-Vader is selfishness. He believes the galaxy revolves around him. Yeah, he was a slave. So were millions of other sentinent beings in the galaxy. At one point in the RotS novel he was thinking about how the general population of coruscant was meaningless and he couldn't believe they could go about their business with Padme in danger. He wants to save Padme because HE can't live without her. Everything was about him.

 

Err when did he ever whine about being a slave?

It's like I said. People can toss any negative description and stick it to Anakin without trying to understand the character.

 

Oh he -is- selfish (at least in the sense of his personal connections), absolutely. He's also arrogant. In fact in most portrayals I can barely stand the character, and I absolutely -hate- that every author felt they had to "telegraph" Anakin's eventual fall like he had a giant neon sign blinking over his head going "LOOK AT ME! I'M GONNA BE DARTH VADER!!" (Going back as far as "Rogue Planet") Basically, the character got shafted because everyone tried to play up and highlight his flaws rather than his positive aspects.

And furthermore, if the Jedi had been a little less "detached" and a little less locked in to their dogmatic methods, they might have -recognized- Anakin's selfishness and dealt with it more effectively. And as for his arrogance, even -Yoda- basically brushed it off as no big deal. "Oh yeah, lots of Jedi are like that right now. So we'll just brush Master Kenobi's concerns aside and send him off on this little solo mission despite all that."

Basically the Jedi were so locked into their mindset that they refused to realize that Anakin actually was a special case, and that maybe the Jedi Order needed to adapt to him more so than they needed to force him to adapt to their way of doing things. Personally, I think the only Jedi that probably could have effectively trained him would have been someone like Qui-Gon, who was willing to do things a little "differently" when he felt it was necessary.

I guess this all really boils down to a pet theory of mine: That in a "perfect world", Anakin would have served as an example to the Jedi that they -didn't- need to detach themselves so completely from emotion and healthy attachments (admittedly, some of Anakin's attachments weren't very healthy, but by the same token many of the problems sprang from him trying to keep the Jedi from finding out about them). Basically, the idea that Anakin would not only have destroyed the Sith, but have ushered in a "new" Jedi Order considerably earlier than his son managed.

 

I agree. I loathe most of the stories out there that portray him because most authors just don't get him or the fact that they have to let go of the "Darth Vader" they knew in A New Hope and see him for the character he really was. And that Anakin fans really get. But to each his own, I guess.

Those who proclaim him selfish never really turn that same character trait on the Jedi, who wanted to keep the Republic and their order as it was and had been for thousands years. Even though it was past time for a change as Yoda later notes. They never call Luke selfish, who in the end wanted his father, just as his father had wanted his mother. Rebellion and Jedi be damned.

And to say the Jedi had flaws is an understatement. They had massive flaws that were pretty apparent by the time Mace Windu decides he's going to take matters into his own hands.

My problem (and some of it stems from the fact that these poor authors didn't know) is the post-ROTJ skewered the character of Anakin Skywalker (and Darth Vader for that matter), before George had a chance to ever put pen to paper. You go back and read some of that stuff now and it's pretty bad.

It's interesting. In reading Betrayal, I can tell Jacen's flaws are more out of selfishness and arrogance than Anakin's ever was. Anakin's came from a selfishness that was inherently good, even with his pretty big flaws and still came thisclose to doing away with Palpatine and being the Jedi he should have been. He was more innocent, naive, and generous than his grandchildren were at the same age from what we've seen in TPM. His grandson is just flat out doing to be doing it. He makes Anakin look like an angel. Born with a psuedo silver spoon in his mouth, both of his parents and a loving family and no real burdens....he's not even looking back, with no real reason for his behavior. I am looking forward to seeing Jacen contrasted to Anakin. I have a feeling Luke and Leia will see Daddy wasn't as bad as they thought when little Jacen busts up on the scene.

 

I'm not saying he complained, but people toss this around like its an excuse for what he became.

 

I don't think the Jedi are at fault for Anakin's actions. Blaming the Jedi is akin to defending a rapist or murderer because they grew up in poverty. In the end, HE ALONE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS. If he hated the order that much, he could always leave with no punishment. Despite the order's flaws, it always tried its best to defend the freedom and rights of Republic citizens and all beings for that matter. Mace might not have had to legal authority to arrest Palpatine, but he had the moral and ethical obligation to.

I don't think Jacen is anything like Anakin. Anakin was emotionally unstable and let anger get the best of him. Jacen uses logic to a point where he is really emotionless. He believes the ends ALWAYS justify the means. Its like Hitler & Stalin. Hitler was passionate and so full of hate that it consumed im. He truly hated the 6 million Jews, gays, and disabled people he murdered. Stalin was a cold, emotionless, person who would do anything to solidify his rule. He didn't hate the people he murdered, he just did it to make everyone fear the state.