ST C'mon, Let's Keep a Little Optimism Here - The Gusher's Sanctuary

Speaking of Lord of the Rings, I've theorized that Palpatine in this movie/the ST era will be somewhat analogous to Sauron during the Third Age after they were defeated by Darth Vader and Isildur at the end of the Second Age and ROTJ/the OT era respectively: both are in a weakened state following their defeats and making one last attempt at galactic/world domination that culminates in their ultimate defeats.

 

That dark side hole calling Rey in TLJ has new meaning now when we know she is Palpatine.

 

If they really want to push "palpatine is behind everything" thing, but that he also wants Rey on his side, the best explanation why "Snoke" wanted to kill Rey in TLJ is that he never really wanted that. He wanted Kylo to kill that clone and take control over the First Order.

Giving Kylo more power makes him closer to the dark side and closer to Palpatine.

 

One explanation is that killing her would make Kylo stronger in the Dark Side. Snoke knew Kylo was conflicted and became actually weaker after killing Han. Killing Rey was his second chance to become stronger in the Dark Side.

A Dark Side master wants a strong apprentice. And if Plaps was behind it, he follows the rule of two as far as we know.

Your theory works as well, for the same reasons.

 

I don't think that was plan when they were doing TLJ, but who cares. It wasn't a plan to make Luke and Leia brother and sister when they were making ESB.

 

True. But the leaks say he doesnt want Rey dead in TROS, so it wouldn't make much sense that je would want her dead in TLJ.

 

Exactly. All that matters is how the story plays. Casablanca is a classic but it had multiple writers and was considered a bit of a happy accident. That can happen sometimes and may have again.

 

Maybe he now wants to control Kylo like he controlled Snoke, and have Rey as his new apprentice?

"Always in motion the future is". I guess we will know in a week

 

What did you folks think of the music of Oxogul?

I loved hearing some vocal bellowing there.

 

Here is my question if snoke is a clone, does that mean palp had complete control of him or did snoke act independently to an extent.

 

That new clip with Palpatine doing all the various voice overs was really cool. I think this was what MSW said was going to be in the first trailer, but they held off on it.

 

Yup. I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. Snoke/Palpatine was clearly goading Kylo in the scene.

 

I'm sure he acted independently to an extent, just like the clones during the Clone Wars.

 

Well then that could explain why he tried to kill rey in tlj

 

Maybe not Palpatine but it was clear there was more at play then what we were seeing.

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Maybe, maybe not. It doesnt matter. It works.

 

I loved it too. Very haunting, very applicable to the scene.

Its almost like JJ has read my mind because its exactly the feel I have always imagined a place where the dark side reigns to have

 

Then when Snoke said to take off that silly mask, that was a continuing part of the performance to make Kylo think that whoever Snoke was was a different entity than who Kylo thought was speaking from Anakin's mask, which he assumed to be Vader. Active differentiation / active performance of two discreet conflicting roles. This is consistent with Darth Sidious of TPM. It's a level of depth I never expect from Abrams, and I won't hold my breath.

 

I think he tried to kill her to test Kylo. The sith have always done this kind of thing, finding new ways to torture and test their apprentices. Either way it was going to accomplish what Palpatine wanted, either turning Kylo by murdering Rey or putting him into a position to go absolutely mad with power. Either way it was a win for him.

 

For me, the killing of Snoke was always a tactic to cement Kylo's commitment.

Until this point, he was full of rage and anger and fear. But once Snoke was chopped in half, the comic book version rises to the forefront - eg. Ego, etc - basically other dark side traits.

At this point, Kylo thinks he now is the most powerful man in the galaxy and he can do what he please.

 

Another cool aspect of the leaks that I just realized is that when Rey dies, and Kylo uses his life force to resurrect her in his place, he’s basically allowing her to be “reborn” with his powers. In other words, she died a Palpatine, and was then reborn as a Skywalker. Hooray for Phoenix metaphors!

 

I think the opposite. He thought he was free and was now able to enact his own free will for the first time in his life without manipulation, but even that was all a mirage and manipulation in and of itself. The thing that's been inside his head since he was in his mother's womb is still preying on him.

His intent was to be freed of "Snoke". It wasn't about power in the sense of ruling the universe, but rather power over himself. He knew "Snoke" was always belittling, torturing and testing him (and nothing he did was ever enough to gain his respect), so he saw that act as a way to become his own master for once. "Snoke" was just another master he could never please in the end, same as how he ultimately came to see Luke; just another authority figure who didn't think he was good (or bad) enough.

And this sets up perfectly what Palpatine is likely going to underestimate, just as he underestimated Anakin's ability to love his son. Ben Solo's entire life has been the manipulations and expectations of others. The signs are already there that he desires free will and to be loved for who he really is, not what he can be twisted into or what everyone wants him to be (neither pure light or pure dark).

That's what he sees in Rey. It's his path to freedom (something purely his own, chosen for himself--that's why Snoke's claim of bridging their minds was meant to sting), redemption and acceptance in the gray area. Someone like him who is neither of the dark or light and might see and understand the real him, rather that what everyone wants him to do for them. That was Rey's big mistake in the throne room. She just wanted what he could do for her and the Resistance. The offer for him was a lot more personal. The last thing he wanted was just another being wanting him to do something for them. He had just killed Snoke for that.

Ben's ability to love is likely Palpatine's downfall again, even if he thinks he can use it as a manipulation to bring Ben and Rey together (after all, the ultimate Jedi taboo was also Anakin's downfall). And perhaps, Palpatine may manipulate Rey in both her desire for family (perhaps thinking she'll accept being Rey Palpatine) and ability to love the "monster". Palpatine might even try to use their feelings against them with the whole right to rule the universe as the new emperor and empress. But the big underestimation is likely just how much Ben hates being manipulated! And perhaps because he might have his act of redemption in loving Rey more than his own life if the spoilers turn out right.

Ben is very much the "Monster in Love" archetype; he wants nothing more than to be loved and accepted. Palpatine is just another manipulator who has given him false love and acceptance that was all a lie, just like his perception of his parents, Luke, "Snoke" and "Vader's mask". Palpatine is the thing who has denied him that love (even from people who did love him) for his entire life.

 

Considered not watching the Ben/Sheev clip and save the good stuff for opening day like usual, but...

Too damn curious this time, caved.

 

I am so excited! Can’t wait for next week! The mythology and references to the past are what are exciting me right now, and knowing John Williams apparently does a ton of that with his soundtrack.