Continuity in AOTC

Yes, AOTC works perfectly with the EU. Boba Fett could still be Jaster Mareel as well as an unaltered clone of Jango. Obi-Wan still has a brother named Owen--despite the fact that Jedi are taken from their families, which means there's no way for him to know about siblings. Palpatine still cloned himself and a Jorus C'Boath--despite their being no evidence of such a thing having taken place in the films. And Vader apparently lost his right arm a grand total of 4 times: once by Count Dooku, once by Luke, once by Palpatine, and once again by Luke in ROTJ.

 

Well if you don't believe me, I hope you'll believe this interview with Ann C. Crispin here interview.

She referenced directions from Lucasfilm, which were evidently given to her before she even started the book, GlitterBug. Nowhere does she say that Lucas personally told her to do this or that, or that he cut out sections she'd written.

 

pat fett... i really like that fix. never read that part of NEGTC... just have read the major characters...


Everything post ROTJ is false. According to those stories, a Jedi Master named Jorus C'Boath was cloned. The films have yet to show us any Jedi Master by that name, and the only person to be cloned is Jango Fett. Speaking of the Fetts, the EU identifies Boba Fett as the former Jaster Mareel, not an unaltered clone of Jango. The EU also features a clone of Palpatine, which I assure you the films will not. The EU also states that Vader first lost his right hand in a duel with Luke between A New Hope and ESB; the films say Count Dooku severred that arm.

Lucas does allow other writers to dabblein the Star Wars universe, but their ideas are not automatically a part of the continuity of the films unless he chooses to include them in a film. If he chooses to go a different way, that is not a contradiction. There is only a contradiction if there is a difference among the films. The novels and comics do not count. They were never part of canon. The films are made to be a closed system: a story that makes sense entirely within their own context, apart from any other. Learn to view them that way, and to make them, not other media, your primary source of information.


okay this statement is wrong on like every level...

1st: you say things aren't a part of continuity unless they are from films?? what? how could you say that... so by your argument... the rebels just appear on hoth. the ewoks dont have names. luke never retrieves his lightsaber after dueling vader. leia just happens to own some bounty hunter armor?? luke just happens to own a green lightsaber? these are things that are not in the movies explicity... ie not shown on film ... so your own argument is flawed as a purist.

2nd: "The novels and comics do not count. They were never part of canon."

ummm yes they are... you can say all you want otherwise... YOU DONT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT BUT THEY ARE CANON. no debate here. but i dont want this to be a canon debate. i happen to like this discussion where it is so please dont use the c-word again.

side note: GL has NEVER, NEVER EVER used the c-word....


3rd: "The films are made to be a closed system: a story that makes sense entirely within their own context, apart from any other.

on this note i do agree with you on the most simplistic level.. yes the movies do make sense without the EU...but just as other people have sated the EU enriches, not takes away from, the movies. i dont see why you are arguing this.
but if you mean this statement to undermine the validity of the existense of the EU.. then AGAIN READ THIS QUOTE FROM BEGINNING OF SPLINTER OF THE MINDS EYE:

"After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story - however many films it took to tell - was only one of the thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit the galaxy. But these were not stories that I was destined to tell.

this statement speaks volumes... it basically gives authors the opportunity to write about star wars on their own as long as he appoves... it allows them to write the many thousand other stories of the GFFA.



4: Learn to view them that way, and to make them, not other media, your primary source of information.

who is debating this point? i do not think that ANYONE ON THESE BOARDS would say that EU overides the films. we all do take the movies to be our primary source of info...





also people are debating vader losing his arm in SOTME ... but no where in the novel does it say that it is his biological arm... it does not say that it was his natural arm. it has to be him again losing his mechanical arm... because the movies takes place first in the timeline and the EU is part of continuity then we have to say that is a mechanical arm getting cut off.



boba fett/jaster this has not been messed up by AOTC at all. AOTC does not contradict any of those comics.


cloning facilities: just because they aren'

 

Yes, AOTC works perfectly with the EU. Boba Fett could still be Jaster Mareel as well as an unaltered clone of Jango. Obi-Wan still has a brother named Owen--despite the fact that Jedi are taken from their families, which means there's no way for him to know about siblings. Palpatine still cloned himself and a Jorus C'Boath--despite their being no evidence of such a thing having taken place in the films. And Vader apparently lost his right arm a grand total of 4 times: once by Count Dooku, once by Luke, once by Palpatine, and once again by Luke in ROTJ.

yes your correct on all your points except two...

obi wan could very easily have gone back to his homeworld and seen his family once he was older.... we see anakin do this in AOTC... why couldn't obi wan have done this... just because you dont live with your family doesnt mean they cease to exist!!!

come on now you know your reachingwith that statement.


Palpatine still cloned himself and a Jorus C'Boath--despite their being no evidence of such a thing having taken place in the films.

no evidence?? we see that the emperor uses a cloned army.. is it inconcievable that he cloned himself?? as i said before alot of star wars activity takes place off screen and between the films... your statements are very ignorant...

they dont ever show vader have a hyperdrive in his tie fighter... yet how did he get to his star destroyer in ESB?? are we to again go with your "not on film" assumption.. and say that this is a new vader?? cause according to you there is still a vader floating out of control in orbit around yavin.....


get a grip man alot of stuff takes place off screen.... we can go on all day naming stuff that must happen that is not shown... but i think you get my point and realize your wrong in your assumption.

 

This isn't about the EU but I had a question. I just got done watching TPM and noticed that Obi-Wan has the same lightsaber in both TPM and most of AotC. I confirmed this by comparing two stills from both movies. The problem is that during his duel with Maul it was kick over the edge of the shaft by Maul. So how can he have it in AotC. This is a minor detail and I'm sure there is a bottom to the shaft and he could retrieved it. Hope Anakin has a new lightsaber in E3(maybe Vader's), it would be kind of hard to clue his old one back together. Just wondering what everyone else thought.

 

From TV Guide Nov 24-30 2001 Interview w/ GL:

TVG: Yet novelists have written "Star Wars" sequels using the same characters and extending their stories

GL: Oh sure. They're done outside my little universe. "Star Wars" has had a lot of different lives that have been worked on by a lot of other people. It works without me

 

flimmbuff...

for some reason qui gon, obi wan, and anakin all have the same lightsaber hilts... they only vary in their blade color.

in AOTC when they first meet padme again.. you can see that anakin and obi wan have the same lightsaber.

and since obi wans was kicked over... and he picks up qui gons... which is the same as he had in AotC then we can say they all had the same type of hilt...


maybe a type for their lineage... passed on???

although doesn't hold well cause dooku's is differenet... but maybe he just changed it after he became a sith... or maybe the tradition was just started by qui gonn.

 

UCLA:
So far, none of the examples you debunked indicate a contradiction between movies and EU. Obi-Wan would not know who his family is, especialy a younger brother, because he would have been taken by the Jedi as a young child. Veryl ikely hwe would never have met his brother, but still have him. Anakin, on the other hand, left his mom when he was TEN; not only knew her, but had some good memories stored there. He would have grown attached to his mother, whereas if Obi-Wan had any attachment, it would have been severed because he was still a baby. However, folks, it needs to be pointed out the EP III still awaits. Obi Wan is going to drop Luke off with Owen; why in the world was Owen picked? Why would Padme sanction her kid being left with someone she m,et for all of a day? Doesn't she have better allies? But I digress....the point is, no need really talking about this threa, because it just isn't finished yet.
As for the cloning of Palpy and stuff like that, again, none of this disagrees with the moives, as was pointed out before. Some stuff with EU, however, does contradict what's in the mvoies, and when it does, it is not a case of "Well, you like your tea hot, I like mine cold." The EU stuff is false. However, just like in a criminal case, where it is "Innoncent until proven guilty" the EU is truth until proven false (by the movies).
Side note: UCLA, the ANH, ESB, and ROTJ novelisations are NOT EU; they are most definitely absolute canon, and I have seen them referred to as much on more than one occassion. Having said that, if Lucas comes out in the next movie and Obi-Wan says "Owen Lars is not my brother" or even implies that, there would be a contradiction of the movies.

 

UCLA:
Obi-wan re-built his one that he had in TPM, just look at the visual dictioary, it's the same one in AOTC. Anakin's looks toatally different, and niether of then have Qui-Gon's.

Here the bottom shows his lightsaber

and here

 

[image=http://www.masterreplicas.com/StarWars/images/prod_anakin_saber.jpg] Anakin's Lighsaber
[image=http://www.masterreplicas.com/StarWars/images/prod_obiwan_saber.jpg] Obi-Wan's Lightsaber (Same in TPM and AotC)

They are clearly different. Obi-Wan's is the same in both films even though it was kicked into the shaft in TPM. Plus, if Obi-Wan picked up QGJ's lightsaber wouldn't it still have a green blade as in TPM not blue like AotC.

 

So Obi-Wan rebuilt his lightsaber. If that is what GL says that's good enough for me. Thanks Dayda_Amidala.

 

Not that EU is all that bad if you need it....but it's what makes some Star Wars fans duck in shame. When you hear people discussing things that have nothing to do with the movies and insane speculation about characters that have no bearing whatsoever on anything in the movies that is scary...even to another SW fan. These would be the one's I ignore at all costs...scary.


OUT.

 

Anakin was aware of his family (read: mother) when he left for Jedi training. Traditionally, a Jedi would be taken as an infant, and all ties would be severred. Obi-Wan obviously has parents, but I'm willing to bet dollars to republic credits their names were not Mr. and Mrs. Kenobi. I'm not arguing that they cease to exist. I am arguing that Obi-Wan has no ties to them. He has no way of knowing who they are or where he came from.

When the setting is an imaginary galaxy, naturally there are numerous stories to be told. The EU is not adding to the story of the films, but rather telling another, separate story in the same galaxy. If someone besides Lucas were to make a movie taking place in Modesto, California, it would be a continuation of American Graffiti. Lucas's story has its own internal continuity, and the story ends with Return of the Jedi. Anakin is the Chosen One who brings balance by destroying the Sith. If Palpatine has clones of himself, that would invalidate the balance that was brought, wouldn't it? Secondly, Jorus C'Bouth was supposedly cloned during the Clone Wars and has a history there. The films will omit him entirely, which means he has no place in Lucas's continuity. He is not simply unseen in the films; as far as they films are concerned he doesn't exist. The Boba Fett of the films IS a different character from the EU version. Jaster Mareel is not the same as unaltered clone of Jango. One stole his mandalorian armor, the other inherited it from his slain "father," assuming that it is still mandalorian and not Kaminoan armor.

If you don't want this to be a canon argument, then just understand this: a contradiction is a conflict between two officially endorsed explanations. The Death Star example you brought up is not a contradiction. There is no indication in the films that anyone but the Geonosians, and no indication is given that any obscure scientists helped engineer it, or that Tarkin thought it up (another story that has floated around). The films offer up only one explanation: that the Geonosians designed it. If another explanation were expressed on film, then you would have a contradiction. As the films only have one, continuity is not disturbed.

Timothy Zahn put it best: EU authors are playing in Lucas's driveway, and they can't complain if he drives up in his car and runs over some of their toys. They are using his universe, but their stories are a separate continuity.

 

Secondly, Jorus C'Bouth was supposedly cloned during the Clone Wars and has a history there. The films will omit him entirely, which means he has no place in Lucas's continuity. He is not simply unseen in the films; as far as they films are concerned he doesn't exist.

PPOR! so because chewbacca's parents aren't shown on film... as far as the films are concerned they dont exist??

we have only seen 100 jedi or so in the prequels... we know that there are thousands of jedi... they exist... we know this, so how can we say that just because we dont see jorus he doesn't exist??? i dont see this jump you are making...



The Boba Fett of the films IS a different character from the EU version. Jaster Mareel is not the same as unaltered clone of Jango. One stole his mandalorian armor, the other inherited it from his slain "father," assuming that it is still mandalorian and not Kaminoan armor.

PPOR.. simple.. just post proof... prove to me that jaster mareel and boba fett of the films as you say are different...

dont make any assumptions.. only tell me how based on what we have seen in the films cause that is YOU base your assesments on... that boba and jaster are different. PROVE IT!!

I am arguing that Obi-Wan has no ties to them. He has no way of knowing who they are or where he came from.

what?? so from you have saw from only in the films... jedi are taken at birth and can have no ties to family? they can never visit them later? remember your proof of this can only come from films...


side note: i never stated that the movies contradict the EU or that the EU contradicts itself or the movies... i also never stated that the movies contradict each other... other people say these things not me...

as fasr as i am concerned everything meshes fine right now.




also... i guess i am completely wrong about the lightsabers... me and my friends happend to think they had the same saber... we thought they looked very similar but none of us own the visual dictionaries.

 

I hate to bust in on the argument...but someone mentioned "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" a few dozen posts back...

Is this still in print at all? I'd heard it's name thrown around a few times as one of the most striking examples of discontinuity between books and movies, and also heard the rumor that it was going to tbe Episode V in the Star Wars series if ANH was only a modest hit (ie Made enough money to get production on a sequel of the same budget).

I'd like to read it sooner or later...

 

i got my copy from

www.half.com for like 70 cents or something...

pretty cool...


also nothing from SOTME contradicts the movies...

there are explanations for all of it...






now if we want to talk about the holiday special....

 

UCLA
On Obi-Wan: It's not that Obi-Wan COULD not visit his relatives, but that he WOULD not; he wouldn't even know who they are. Your right, he'd know they existed (for he exists), but he would only know that of his parents, no siblings, and he would not know WHO his parents were. And since Jedi do not have a sense of attachment, he wouldn't go looking for and searching out people he doesn't know from Han Solo (at this point). Only Anakin we see break this because 1.He KNEW his mother because he wasn't separateed so young, and 2.Anakin shows a propensity for breaking the rules, something Obi-Wan, to this point, has not shown.
On Jorus: There is a big difference between Jorus C'Baoth and Chewie's folks, even though both are not seen on screen: The movies, as we know them, cannot happen without Chewie's parents; they CAN happen without Jorus. Even though we never see Chewie's folks, Chewie could not exist without them, and Cheiwe is necessary for the films, therefore his parents existance is necessary for the films. They are thus, indirectly, tied as being absolute canon. C'Baoth, OTOH, has NOTHING to do with the movies per se; if his novels were never written, AOTC and the other movies would be the same; they are, in a sense, closed to his existance, and it is if he never existed in the movies. HOWEVER, that is not the same as saying therefore Jorus never existed because the movies don't mention him. Since they don't mention him, he could have, maybe he didn't. However, if he is not mentioned in the movie, I don't get all crazy, and I do enjoy both EU and canon (there is no absolute canon with me. Movies=canon; everything else=licnesed but not canon; and what is called non-canon here is just unlicensed books).

 

She referenced directions from Lucasfilm

Lucasfilm = Lucas. Maybe that's why the Lucas part is in there

Also it's interesting how you ignored my request to post proof of that Lucas quote

 

jslader:

okay i'll concede my example of the chewies parent and jorus cboth... however you still aren't proving that jorus was not cloned.





again i ask you and obi ewan how you know jedi training happens??


where in the movies does it say that babies are TAKEN at birth?/

where does it say that a jedi cannot find who is family is?

where does it say that a jedi feels no attachment??



just point me to these scene and the discussion is over...








glitterbug:

lucasfilm=lucas thats why the lucas is there



exactly!!! that is why when lucasfilm makes a statement about the EU and the c-word we then can take the EU to have value and weight.

 

A few small (or not so small perhaps ) points (feel free to correct me, I'm working from memory here).

With Han Solo not believing in the force this is not surprising at all. He has grown up under the repression of the Empire, and has never before seen a Jedi in action in his lifetime (I?m assuming). Fact can turn to myth very quickly, and memories to myth just as fast. I have in the past known some people many years my senior who have had some very strange beliefs and stories which I tend to consider old wives tales, but which they consider fact. This is all due to my experience telling me that it is wrong, but theirs telling them it is right. The way I figure it; same diff.

Owen Lars is never told C3-P0's name directly. Doesn't he just say "you must be for etiquette and protocol..." or something?

Thus far Obi-Wan has never been seen by C3-P0? Why would C3-P0 recognise Obi-Wan.
The fact that C3-P0 assumes R2 is malfunctioning when he starts talking about "Obi-Wan", could perhaps suggest that it is certainly a name that he heard often, though a long time ago. (+ I might add that Obi-Wan has aged an awful lot...)
When Obi-Wan says "Obi-Wan...That's a name I've not heard in a long time..." C3-P0 is in pieces, and not present for this particular conversation with Ben Kenobi. Though an explanation could have taken place that we are not shown, I would suspect "Ben" would not want Luke enquiring to C3-P0 about his father at this point. Thus C3-P0 would only know of Ben Kenobi from after "waking up" in Episode 4.
It could also be quite easily assumed though that Obi-Wan is recognised by R2, especially considering how willing he is to give Obi-Wan the message (ie. He has recognised him). This would also tie in with Leia wanting to send the message through R2, because R2 once knew him.

Luke does not tell C3-P0 he is on Tatooine (within the film). He instead says (something along the lines of...) "Well if there's a bright centre to the universe, you're on the planet that is farthest from". While in shot at least, he also never says "I'm Luke Skywalker", he just says "Luke". So (as far as my memory holds ), we are not actually shown when the droids learn that he is "Luke Skywalker". And perhaps more obviously, we are given no indication of how common a surname Skywalker may be.
Or it is possible (we don't know yet - though it highly unlikely) that the droids are not aware of Anakin Skywalker being Darth Vader, and assume instead that Anakin died childless making it much, much less likely for C3-P0 to say "I was built by your father". This is way unlikely, and I won't deny it, though the point can't be argued that we really are quite in the dark of how much or how little the droids know by Episode 4.
I don't think it would be outrageous to suggest that the vast majority of the galactic population are completely unaware that Anakin Skywalker=Darth Vader, otherwise Luke surely would not have grown up using that surname (unless again it's a common name - though if it was known that Skywalker was Vader, sharing the name of an evil warlord would surely cause it to drop in popularity).

These are all mostly stretches of the imagination and I won't deny it, though they are quite feasible (I think {please correct me if wrong!}).
I have very little doubt that all will be explained in Episode 3, though if I'm betting, I would say entirely at the expense of the EU.
The EU seems to have gotten an awful lot of things quite wrong (who can blame it?). In my opinion one of the biggest is that the EU told us that Palpatine usurped the republic. It seems to me that George Lucas has drawn on Roman history a little (Augustus) and that it was the republic who MADE Palpatine the Emperor (or Caesar if you will ). The Empire IS the republic, I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed the Jedi ships bearing the Imperial logo (I think I'm right there)...
But the EU always suggested (as far as I can recall) that the Empire and the Republic had been two separate entities.
(Apologies if this is

 

Well, one thing that maybe you all should remember is that Lucas spesifically made sure no EU was made that takes place befre ANH (ok, shortly before, there is all the TOTJ and whatnot). It was ovious, given that ANH was epsidoe 4 that Lucas had some plans about the time shortly before ANH. Oviously things like some of Anikens history, OB1 and what not. The death star may have even been one of those things he planed out.

My point is that the EU authors should have given as little history as possible of the time before ANH. It is their fault for making stuff that would probably be contriadicted later on.



Looking at the whole seperatests death star thing, maybe both sides were trying to build one until. The Republic/Empire in the maw (if we want to have the EU be right) and the seperasts somewhere else. Remember the puppit master can make sure both sides have the plans, and maybe a big battle in E3 will be about the destruction of one of their bases (along with everything else happening).

Movie contradictions that are given should not be ones that can in theory be easly explained in E3. 3PO will probably get reprogramed (he said 3 million languages i thought in AOTC, not 6 like throughout the OT) and very well a memory wipe. I still dont like the explnation setteling the 1000 generations/1000 years (maybe a year is longer there than here? Maybe there was an older republic before the one now, but nothing that i would really accept).

HAHA, would a driod remember a memory wipe?

With the jedi being forgoten, remember that the Empire has probably been putting out propaganda to really discredit the jedi. Not to mention that they are getting weaker, the force is getting cloudy, ppl are probably getting disalusioned by them, or believe that they are nothing more than tricksters.

Also Star Trek (aside from DS9) did not generally have a story arc like Star Wars. Not to mention the horiable contradictions from series to series.

If SOTME is cannon, then i guess all early drafts of the script will also have to be cannon (ohh, that will get ugly, there are not about 15 or so diffrent versions of each charictor).

There are lots of things between the EU and movies, betweent he EU itself, and even a little between the movies that does not feel like it is correct. Something like the death star maw thing, or allot of things that simply were not mentioned but said to have happened. When it comes down to it, there are very very few outright unfixable condrations in the movies/EU. Maybe the ghosting of TOTJ would be one. But there are not many. But there are many things that simply dont feel like they would happen.

Would movie poster be cannon, if so, then there is a contradiction with the poster of TPM with Aniken having the shadow of Darth Vader. It is only one shadow, yet the planet has 2 stars, and it is not dim at all?

 

EU still fits 100% with the prequels. End of story. Now go enjoy whatever form/extent of Star Wars you like.

 

EVERYONE STOP SAYING 'PPOR'!!!!




*jumps out the window*

 

Oh who cares. All this bickering is dribble, and its an endless argument. Look, we all know that tons of stuff conflicts with each other in the Star Wars universe, be it EU, film, or whatever. Do we need to sit down and explain it all away? No.

My own personal yardstick says that films overrun EU, bu if you don't want to follow that than fine. If you wanna say movies are all that is true than fine. But don't let this turn into the same damned thing tearing Trek fandom apart, where you have people cobbling their own fan timelines together and beating each other senseless whenever someone contradicts their own thoughts.

Some mod just lock this infernal beast.