Could Count Dooku defeat Palpatine?

Dooku told Kenobi in AOTC that a sith was running the show and had everyone fooled and that together they could destroy the sith.... ok that really meant for dooku to be head sith with obi as his lil sidekick and they take out Palps.... However he seemed confident that if Obi joined him they could get the job done. Palps wasnt that great of a fighter in my opinion, he did more stuff by deciept

 

I remember from that novel Paleptine telling Dooku to test Anikan to see if he could be made to use the dark side in battle, and Dooku knew all along he was supposed to lose and live out the war as a POW in comfort. Too bad Palpetine had different ideas lol

Doesn't the ROTS novel imply that Obi-wan gives ground on purpose cause of the light saber style he uses which is designed to make his enemy think hes winning when he's not & lul him into a false sence of security? I always thought Obi-wan in that fight played directly to Anikans ego to throw him off balane but thats just my opinion. PLus I always thought in ANH, especially after seeing the prequals was that killing Vader wasn't a problem. Yoda & Obi-wan needed him alive to get access to Palpetine cause Palpetines weakness is that he trusts ANikan with his life and Anikans weakness is that as soon as he finds out that it was Palpetine lying to him & turning him against his familly & friends in ROTS and not the jedi like he thought for over 20 years he'll turn on Palpetine. It's Obi-wans wink that throws me off. In the battle in ANH he holds his own against vader and as soon as Luke sees them and yells "NO!" Obi-wan smiles & winks at Vader and then surrenders to death which is a little strange, almost like he knows that if Luke sees Vader kill him Luke will never be tempted to join his dad in the dark side and Obi-wan will have become more powerful then Vader could possibly imagine.

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He only faced Obi-wan in direct combat and Obi-wan was the weakest member of the council and utterly destroyed him. Thats more what I was meaning. The SHaak Ti thing was wierd tho, two deaths netiher Canon. What does Lucas have planned for her?

 

I'd say nope. He "holds his own" against Yoda but ultimately is defeated. Yoda "holds his own" against Sidious but is also ultimately defeated. Only Anakin, with the force as his ally could defeat the Emporer. Lightsaber combat in the end has nothing to do with defeat or victory, just because you trained till you were virtually perfect does not gurantee a victory when facing against the darkside of the force.

 

And yet grabbing somebody from behind and carrying his body and throwing it down a reactor core shaft does? seems like the Light Side of the force has to be sneaky because in straight fight it will always get knocked on its ass, unless of course its being used by a big tough Black guy with a bald head that likes to kick people in the head when he cant out duel them, the dark side of the force can not hear a Jedi Master with a mechanical lung sneaking up on it and it can not see a Black dude kicking towards its head either.

 

Let's keep this to Dooku and Palpatine. We're going a bit off topic with Anakin killing Palpatine, which is a whole different story.

 

It was a test for Anakin, but in the novel, Palpatine tells Dooku to go all out against Anakin. To try and kill him. If Dooku is able to kill him, then they known Anakin isn't a worthy Sith. But if Anakin should beat Dooku, Palpatine will intervene and stop Anakin from killing Dooku. Dooku was tricked because he thought that Anakin would arrest him onnly and the Rule of two abandoned. But, in the novel, Palpatine clearly order Dooku to try and kill him.

There was no way Obiwan could have beat Vader on DSI. I've heard that theory before and it doesn't add up. If Obiwan could have killed Vader he would have. If anything, it would have given more access to Palpatine. Palpatine would have needed someone pronto, promting an intensified search on his part. Obiwan thought Anakin was twisted and evil. He wanted Luke to kill him, because he couldn't.

I don't agree with either of those statements. Palpatine's weakness was arrogance that Anakin couldn't be turned from the dark side, or unwavering faith in his abilites. He certainly didn't trust Anakin with his life because he was always trying to get Vader to want to kill him. And Vader's weakness wasn't his response when he found out everything, because a long time ago he had already figured that out. Hell, he probably understood 75% of that wiping out the Seps on Mustafar, but I'd say his weakness (as a Sith Lord) was the remaining good left in him.

Weakest member of the council? Utterly destroyed him? Obiwan was not the weakest. And he did not destroy Anakin.

She is going to appear in the 2008 novel/videogame crossover Force Unleashed.

 

What was Dooku thinking in the novel as to how the fight would turn out? He seemed doubtful that Anakin could beat him, which would be understandable on his part. However, he was preparing to "sit out the end of the war in captivity", so it looks as if he assumed he would be taken hostage. Was he planning to "throw the fight" as long as Anakin turned to the dark side?

 

I don't think Dooku could defeat Palpatine, I mean when you think about it Palpatine could probably just fry Dooku with lightning. They're on two different levels IMO, Sidious's extensive knowledge of the Force and his skills with a lightsaber would prevail.

 

I believe, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, that first Count Dooku was instructed to kill Obiwan, then allow Anakin to "defeat" him. Anakin captures Count Dooku, rescues the Chancellor, and becomes the greatest hero in the Republic, insinuates that the Jedi Order is corrupted, and leads a creation of a Sith Army. Anakin is to become the General while Count Dooku and Palpatine run the new Sith Empire.

Honestly, I think Dooku stood a better chance of defeating Palpatine than Yoda, Mace or Anakin. Dooku was very knowledgable and was great with the saber. His problem was that he was a puppy dog when it came to Palpatine.

 

That would explain why Dooku chokes Obi-Wan and tries to crush him, but in the end Dooku got played and he deserved it for trusting Sidious.

I'd say he stood a better chance than Anakin, Dooku was I think too polished. In the end, I see it like this:

Yoda
Mace
Dooku
Anakin

I don't want to bring other books but in a book I read it said that Dooku was "on par" with Mace in Yoda. I think in the end though, Sidious > Ep. III Jedi.

<Edit> I'll find the book for you if you want, I'm sure I have it somewhere.

 

Its amazing how underated ROTS Anakin is on this site

 

Dooku's instructions were simple. Engage Anakin and Obi-wan in a duel. Remove Obi-wan by any means necessary. Fight Anakin as hard as he could. If Anakin won, he'd stop the fight before it became fatal. If Anakin won, then he was not worthy. Dooku fought his hardest as shown in both the film and described in the novelization. He never once threw the fight, but he did try to lure them into a false sense of security. What he didn't realize was that they had thought of that first. When he realized that they had both improved as fighters and as a team, Dooku stepped up his game. Right until he lost, he was fighting with everything he had and realized that it was still not enough.

 

The fact that he described as the "Chosen One" automatically makes him completely vulnerable to all complaint and bashing. They really don't show of his "amazing power" in the movies. The only glimpse of a powerful Anakin is when he had fallen to the darkside and even then he lost to Obi-Wan due to his uncontrollable rage. I think of it more him being underated in the movies thus making him underated by fans.

Anyways, I believe Sidious could obliterate any Jedi/Sith of his era which I think of to be the span of all six movies.

 

I personally disagree. I believe pre-suit Vader would have been equal to Sidious in a lightsaber battle, and possibly a force battle as well (if he used his anger like against Dooku).

As for personal rankings, am I the only one that doesn't rate Mace that highly? We only see him duel against Palps in ROTS, and I am in the group that thinks Palps threw the fight. I don't read EU stuff, so there's probably something I'm missing, but I think it's like this (PT):

1) Yoda: would have easily beaten Sids if the battle had stayed in the first room
2) Sidious: Beats everyone else besides Yoda
3) Pre-suit Vader: If he uses his anger, he's nearly unstoppable
4) Obi-Wan: Great strategist, uses the force well, and very good defence
5) Mace: Fights quite well when we see him, but seems to be better against blasters than saber/saber combat.

 

IMHO the displays of Anakin's power were possibly "toned down" in ROTS so that it would not make Darth Vader in IV-VI look pathetic by comparison, for those watching the series in numerical order. I think the duel needed more use of Force powers, for example. If there is ever to be a special edition of ROTS, I hope that they would at least consider adding some things in the duel scene that were in the novel, like Anakin slicing shards of hot metal off of the walls and Force-flinging them at Obi-Wan. Also, the video game had a lot of containers lying around that could be Force-thrown, while the film does not.

 

Actually, it didn't have to do with the OT. Lucas did cut scenes for two reasons. Running time and because in the original edit, Obi-wan was being so dominated that when the duel ended, it looked really bad. So Lucas edited the duel so that it would appear to be more about Lightsaber blows, than throwing stuff at Obi-wan.

Anyway, we're getting a bit off topic.

 

Dooku should be on the list since Dooku owns Kenobi twice and Ahem Kenobi defeated Anakin

 

If we strip away the force, and limit the fight to just dueling/fencing skills, yes, Count Dooku might be able to take Sidious in a fight. However, lightsaber duels are rarely fought with just sabers, and also include the Force...While technically, its possible that Dooku is a superior straight up duelist, when you add in Force usage, which Sidious frequently uses as additional weaponry, Dooku cannot compete. Sidious is the total package. Saber for saber, yes. But when you start adding in Force lightning, pushes, jumps, using the entire Senate as a frisbee collection, etc, Sidious outshines Dooku clearly.

 

Just because Anakin is the Chosen One doesn't mean that he was going to kick all kinds of ass. He has all these Midichlorians as a by-product of his birth. Being the Chosen One meant that he was chosen to destroy the Sith. Nothing more and nothing less. People just think that Anakin had to do all this, to prove he was the Chosen One when that's not even remotely true. It's all about his desire to be the best, that turns him into Vader and thus brings him into servitude until Luke shows up.

Now, let's focus on Dooku and not Anakin.

 

Yep. Why bother with telling us about midichlorian-mitochondria and misread-prophecies if they really don't matter.

All that needs to be done is to reinsert what was foolishly cut.

I underlined the main reason, but the word 'dominated' might be an understatement. If you look closely, you'll see that some of Kenobi's burn marks in his clothes were there before the lava eruption. The truth of their duel is that Vader thoroughly whooped Kenobi's backside from one end of the stronghold to the other... and it wasn't close.

20,000 midichlorians per cell + Darkside rage = One Bad Dude...
unless your name is Lucas. Then, those things don't matter.

Agreed. The POD-toss was the ultimate. IMO, Dooku paled in comparison to Sidious.

 

LOL! That was hilarious. They say that the best comedy comes from pointing out the obvious which everyone has a tendency to miss/ignore.

 

LOL @ Matthew78. I'd pay to hear your two-cents on how Maul just stood there while Kenobi dangled at his feet. Obviously the darkside took a nap before, during and after Kenobi went into action.

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After watching how easily SkywaVader dismantled Dookranus last nite, there is no way the Count would stand a chance against Palpidious.

 

Strictly in terms of lightsabre skills, I see them like this:

1. Yoda: Sidious was more powerful overall, but I think Yoda had the upper hand in the lightsabre part, especially in close quarters. Sid had to resort to pod throwing to win.
2. Mace: Very close with Yoda, Mace has more strength, but Yoda is quicker. While I do think that Sidious pretended to be weak in the fight in order to coerce Anakin into helping him, thereby turning him closer to the Dark Side (heck, Lucas says as much during the DVD commentary), I think that Mace won the lightsaber part fair and square. Again, like with Yoda, I think that Sidious is more powerful with the Force than Mace, but not a better lightsabre duelist.
3. Anakin: Owned Dooku, after Dooku had taken out Ob-Wan. Clearly a much better fighter in ROTS than in AOTC. He lost to Obi-Wan, yes, but that was due largely to his arrogance (again, Lucas mentions this in the commentary).

I have a tough time after that. Dooku beat Obi-Wan in ROTS largely by means other than lightsabre dueling, so that win is not quite legit. I think I'd probably but Obi-wan at #4. I would rank Sidious slightly higher than Dooku, but to answer the original post, yes, Dooku could defeat Sidious. Just as when two evenly matched athletes or teams play each other, the best team/athlete does not win every time. So there is a very good possibility of Dooku beating Sidious in a minor "upset". I'd clearly say that Sidious is more powerful in the Force than Dooku though and would win in an all out fight.

 

Rubbish.

 

How would be who depends greatly on who dictates the fight. If Dooku had been able to dictate the duel on his terms he could've stayed a fair chance. I can see him holding his own with a saber - perhaps using both hands this time Count?

BUT, if Sideous were given room to use his force powers he would win. However, I don't think lightning would be very efficient in close quarters combat, and thus he might not be able to use his ultimate (highly overrated) weapon!

The fact is that Sideous didn't come off as the best lightsaber duelist as he lost to Mace, and most likely lost to Yoda.