PT Could Palpatine have saved Padme?

Blasphemer!

 

Even if he knew how to save Padme, why would he? She was pretty much the last chance for Vader to turn away from the Dark Side so she had to go. As others said, he would have secretly killed her, then told Vader that he (Vader) had caused her death.

 

Vader's bond to Padme seemed way stronger than his loyalty to Palpatine. He only pledged loyalty to save Padme, and when he was drunk on power and was convinced that he could save Padme, he was really quick to suggest that he could overthrow Palpatine and that he and Padme could rule as dictators.

Padme seemed like very much a threat to Palpatine. Padme would never side with Palpatine, and in the event that Vader has to make a choice, he'd likely have turned against Palpatine. I can't see why he'd want her alive.

He uses the promise of saving her to get Anakin to do "whatever [Palpatine] asks," and then after slaughtering the Jedi and the CIS leaders, he's pretty much intoxicated on power and delusional. And then when Padme dies and Palpatine tells Vader that it's his fault, Vader is pretty much so full of hatred that he's not going to be redeemed any time soon. Had Palpatine saved Padme, it might actually snap Anakin out of his anger, which is not what he wanted.

 

...don't forget the added jealously rage he held against Obi-Wan and presumably (at least for short period) thought Padme preferred the "older, wiser Obi-Wan." (I apologize if someone else already pointed that out...)

 

Agreed. Palpatine fully senses Anakin's deeper loyalty to Padme thus using it and her to shift that to himself.

 

Palps was taking a big risk though. Anakin could've been so devestated over Padme's death, that he would have no wish to go on.

 

Part of me thinks that he would try to blame her. That yes, he killed her. But that she tried to kill him (as far as he's concerned). I would think that for a time, she's definitely on his mind, but that it's not an "Oh my God, I love Padme so much, why did I kill her? I can't live without her! I'll never forgive myself!" kind of train of thought, but rather a "Obi-Wan turned her against me! We were happy! Why did she make me do this to her?! I didn't want to kill her, but I had no choice. She turned against me." That he would be so warped to blame that Jedi and her for her own death rather than seeing himself as the one at fault.

I mean he was so quick to deflect blame for everything else. I mean it was pretty obvious that the only reason he agreed to become a Sith was to save Padme. He even tells Palpatine that he will do anything that he asks, so long as he helps save Padme. But by the end of the film he's accusing Padme of trying to kill him, he's accusing Obi-Wan of turning her against him, he considers the Empire his, he's bought into lie all of a sudden that the Jedi are traitors that were trying to take over and deserve everything that's happened to them.

I can't see him all of a sudden taking responsibility for Padme's death, when he couldn't even take responsibility for choking her. He lashed out and both Padme and Obi-Wan, he wife and best friend. In her death, I would think that perhaps he still finds some way to blame someone else.

 

There's certainly an element of that in Dark Lord.


Padmé and Obi-Wan were the ones who had sentenced him to his black-suit prison. Sentenced by his wife and his alleged best friend, their love for him warped by what they had perceived as betrayal. Obi-Wan, too brainwashed by the Jedi to recognize the power of the dark side; and Padmé, too enslaved to the Republic to understand that Palpatine's machinations and Anakin's defection to the Sith had been essential to bringing peace to the galaxy! Essential to placing power in the hands of those resourceful enough to use it properly, in order to save the galaxy's myriad species from themselves; to end the incompetence of the Senate, to dissolve the bloated, entitled Jedi order, whose Masters were blind to the decay they had fostered.
And yet their Chosen One had seen it; so why hadn't they followed his lead by embracing the dark side?
Because they were too set in their ways; too inflexible to adapt.
Vader mused.
Anakin Skywalker had died on Coruscant.
But the Chosen One had died on Mustafar.
Blistering rage, as seething as Mustafar's lava flows, welled up in him. liquifying self-pity. This was what he saw behind the mask's visual enhancers: bubbling lava, red heat, scorched flesh—
He had only wanted to save them! Padmé, from death; Obi-Wan, from ignorance. And in the end they had failed to recognize his power; to simply accede to him; to accept on faith that he knew what was best for everyone!

...

In fact, he hadn't killed the Jedi to serve Sidious, though Sidious was meant to believe just that. In his arrogance Sidious was unaware that Anakin had seen through him. Had the Sith Lord thought he would simply shrug off the fact that, from the start, Sidious had been manipulating Anakin and the war?
No, he hadn't killed the Jedi in service to Sidious, or, for that matter to demonstrate allegiance to the order of the Sith.
He had executed Sidious's command because the Jedi would never have understood Anakin's decision to sacrifice Mace and the rest in order that Padmé might survive the tragic death she suffered in Anakin's visions. More important, the Jedi would have attempted to stand in the way of the decisions he and Padmé would have needed to makr regarding the fate of the galaxy.
Beginning with the assassination of Sidious.
Oh, but on Mustafar she had worked herself into a state over what he had done at the Temple, so much so that she hadn't heard a word he was saying. Instead she had made up her mind that he had come to care more about power than he cared about her.
As if one matters without the other!
And then cursed Obi-Wan had shown himself, interrupting before Anakin could explain fully that everything he had done, in Palpatine's office and at the Temple, had all been for her sake, and that of her unborn child. Had Obi-Wan not arrived he would have persuaded her to understand—he would have made her understand—and together they would have moved against the Sith Lord …
The rasp of Vader's artificial breathing became more audible.
Flexing his artificial hands did nothing to waylay his rage, so he hunched his broad shoulders under the armor pectoral and heavy cloak, shuddering.
Why didn't she listen to me? Why didn't any of them listen to me?

 

That really is interesting, at least to me. I never knew that, I just I might have just skimmed over that portion of the book. I'll have to re-read all of the PT books to catch up on my outside-of-movie content

 

Like I said, it was a possibility. A slim one if that.

 

Not really. He never said that he knew how to do it, just that it was done and that they could work together to figure it out. Which means that he has to become evil and learn the dark side to do it.

He had no intention which was the point. He got what he wanted which was for Anakin to turn on everyone that had ever cared for him, which is why treachery is the way of the Sith. That's why he is smiling while Vader is lashing out. As to choking her, he did it to punish her for her betrayal in bringing Obi-wan to him, so that he could kill him.

 

I think it's weird that Vader went on as Palpatine's apprentice when he believed he killed her.

 

He had nowhere else to go.

 

Anakin initially knew what he did was wrong. He wanted to arrest Palpatine, but when Mace went in for the kill, Anakin made a snap decision and betrayed the Jedi. Immediately thereafter he falls to his knees and asks "what have I done?"

He knows that Mace didn't deserve to die. He's initially in shock as to what happened. But then Palpatine continues on, telling Anakin that when the Jedi learn of what happened, they will kill Anakin as well.

So to Anakin, he's pretty much convinced that he screwed up so bad that there's no going back. Palpatine's promising to help him save his wife, and he's convinced that the Jedi are going to kill him.

Palpatine then continues in telling Anakin that they must preemptively strike at the Jedi, and that in doing so Anakin will become strong enough in the Dark Side to save Padme. So Anakin does so. But I think as he immersed himself more and more in the Dark Side, it just broke open the flood gates and brought all the negativity that he usually suppressed to the surface. His arrogance, his desire for a dictatorship, and his mind is so warped that he seems like he starts to believe Palpatine's lies.

Anakin/Vader doesn't want to take responsibility for his actions, because that would mean that he betrayed everyone and was evil. So instead, everyone that is his victim gets blamed instead, to justify his actions. He betrayed the Jedi, but he rationalizes it that the Jedi betrayed the Republic, and so he didn't betray the Jedi at all, he's the loyal one. Then when faced with Padme, she is disgusted at what he's become, and rather than seeing the truth in what she says, he is quick to blame her for betraying him and chokes her. Then when Obi-Wan enters the picture, Anakin blames him for turning Padme against him and states that those that are not with him are his enemies, and he pretty much justifies that anyone that stands against him has betrayed him.

No, he's not the most logical guy after falling to the Dark Side, but the Dark Side was anything but logical. In ROTJ, Palpatine is convinced that Vader threatening to turn Leia and causing Luke to go into a rage is going to be enough to make Luke pledge himself as Palpatine's apprentice and betray his friends. There is nothing logical about that. But in the OT, the Dark Side seemed very much like a drug. And by the end of ROTS, Anakin's pretty much an addict. And everyone that is trying to get him to turn away from the Dark Side and disagree with what he's doing become traitors and cowards in his eyes.

With Padme dead, not only does Anakin have nowhere to go, but he also has this addiction to the Dark Side's power that he is still pursuing, as well as his desire to suppress anyone that would oppose him.

 

I'm not convinced Palpatine really knew "the secret". Even if he did, again why would he? As he a means to control his puppet apprentice, maybe? But I think that works better with Padme out of the picture, dead. And Vader deep in the Dark Side.

And really I don't think there was really anything to save Padme from except Anakin turning to the Dark Side, Force choking her, and the broken heart. If none of that had happened I don't think she would have died imo.

 

Exactly. Immediately after Anakin pledges himself, Palpatine masterfully insures that Anakin gets enough blood on his hands by killing the younglings and Sepratists so that there is no turning back, to his outer life with Padme and the Jedi nor within to his previous commitment to the Force.

 

Or he might have been so enraged by Palpatine's lies that he'd turn that fury against Palpatine and try to destroy. Which, unsuited and unburned, Anakin might have been able to do.

 

Didn't Lucas mention that Anakin was 40% less powerful in the suit?

 

If he was 40% less powerful in the OT, I wonder how powerful he was in the PT . . . especially in ROTS.

 

IIRC, the numbers were Vader had the potential to be 200% as powerful as Sidious, before Mustafar. When he lost his limbs and his flesh was charred, his potential was reduced to 80% of Sidious'.

 

It proved a point that he was unwilling to admit earlier, which was that he could live without her.

He didn't know. When Palpatine talks about using his knowledge, he's talking about knowing all there is to know about the Force and the nature of the dark side. He's offering Anakin the keys to the doors to the Force that the Jedi refuse to show him. He'll open those doors and show him such sights. He will make him feel stronger and more powerful than ever. He will surpass Yoda, Obi-wan and Mace. Then, the two of them will seek out the means to cheat death. That's what he uses on Anakin. Some people miss that part and think he's saying that he knows the secret and then recants.

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

--George Lucas, quoted in J. Windolf, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

In "Labyrinth Of Evil", Anakin gets so angry at Dooku that he lets go of his anger and it causes the roof of the building he and Obi-wan are in to collapse upon them. In the ROTS novelization and the film, he's not strong enough to do that. In "Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader", it takes Vader a while to figure out how to be effective now. It's like phantom limb pain. He can feel the Force, but the connections are as strong. In time, he's able to still be quite effective, but he cannot reach his true potential. In post ROTJ EU, Luke is able to do great things due to his connection to the Force.

 

Well, Padme "lost the will to live."...... so I always saw her death as being the result of reasons more to do with emotion than physical....... so Palpatine could not have fixed that, short of letting Anakin go back to her, go back to being a Jedi, fighting evil, etc....

 

I don't think it would be limited to just physical causes. The implication is that stopping someone from dying is just that.

 

Where else would he go? Who else would he serve? He had nothing left: no friends, no wife, no council, nothing.