Could the Empire really have Lost to the Rebels?

I think there was a clear power structure (the Sith were the core of the government), but the relevant thing is the line of succession was wiped out at Endor, so everyone turned on everyone else.

You also have to remember that a leader like Palpy probably structured those around him so they would fight with each other as much as possible. That kept him safer from internal threats while he was alive, and he didn't care what happened after he died.

 

Well I know there was a clear power structure DLM.


Palpatine----> Everyone else

I'm refering to after Endor where it all went to hell in a heavily armed handbasket.

 

I know Palpatine was the Core but they ALL had one Goal. To wipe out the Rebels. Just because Palps died doesn't mean the Empire automatically loses. They want the Rebels gone and with that Empire they could have EASILY done that.

 

Not necessarily. Their goals were pretty much what they made themselves. Sure it might have included wiping out the rebels but most of the time they just wished they would be left alone hoping that their military power would desuade the rebels from bothering them. If they were successful in that then they could go on to do whatever they wish.

 

Palpatine----> Everyone else



All right, fine. I meant
Palpatine----> Vader----> Everyone else

 

It really makes sense if you think about it. Once Palpatine was dead, the power-hungry Imperials who had previously been doing whatever their Emporer told them had no one to take orders from and began fighting amongst themselves as well as the Rebels. The Rebel Alliance, on the other hand, started becoming rapidly stronger and more organized as a result of Palpatine's death, since it diminished fear of the Empire a great deal and caused more and more leaders to join the New Republic.

 

That doesn't mean their might is diminished. In order for them to Gain COMPLETE power they needed to wipe out the Enemy(Rebels). Power would have been obtained through Cannibalistic Means yes, BUT it can only be Truly Achieved if their own Enemy is gone.

Rebel Loyalist, they wouldn't have HOPED that the Rebels just leave them alone. The Rebel cause was to Defeat the Empire. If you have Grand Admirals and Moffs they will know that and not go straight for Power.

 

If you have Grand Admirals and Moffs they will know that and not go straight for Power.


Human history indicates otherwise.

 

"If you have Grand Admirals and Moffs they will know that and not go straight for Power."

"Human history indicates otherwise."

I agree, much like Alexander the Great's empire after his death, the strongest admirals and moffs might divide the Empire, each ruling a sector. Otherwise, they would compete until one vanquishes all others, becoming the new Emperor, as often happened in ancient Rome and China. Either way, the Battle of Endor would not be the final victory for the rebellion.

Although Lucas wants us to infer through the ROTJ SE celebrations that final rebel victory was achieved at Endor, such demonstrations could be spontaneous outpourings at the news of the Emperor's death and the Imperial defeat at the Battle of Endor by limited numbers. They could be quickly quashed by police forces and military troops trained to be loyal to the Empire, especially those gentically designed for loyalty. Remember, many citizens may see the Empire as a good thing after the devastation of the Clone Wars.

I would imagine that it would take many more battles for final rebel victory and perhaps many years for consolidation of power sufficient to form a government. Overall, I think the rebels' chances of success highly unlikely, although not impossible, as several actual rebellions have shown. More likely, I see remaining Imperial forces gathering for the sole purpose of defeating the enemy with sheer military might without resorting to vulnerable "super weapons." Then, the strongest moffs and admirals would try to gain the upper hand to succeed the Emperor.

Edit: spelling

 

"That doesn't mean their might is diminished. In order for them to Gain COMPLETE power they needed to wipe out the Enemy(Rebels). Power would have been obtained through Cannibalistic Means yes, BUT it can only be Truly Achieved if their own Enemy is gone."

But without a central person to recieve all their orders from many just branched out with what they had wether it be a couple of ships or a few systems. Moffs, Admirals, Govenors etc knew the extent of their control. And as long as they had that they would be happy.

"Rebel Loyalist, they wouldn't have HOPED that the Rebels just leave them alone. The Rebel cause was to Defeat the Empire. If you have Grand Admirals and Moffs they will know that and not go straight for Power."

Yes it was to defeat the Empire but the first thing they had to do was to establish control. The Empire was to widely spread out and the Rebel Alliance to small to take out every pocket of resistence. Also while some Moffs and Admirals might revert their resources to fighting the Rebel Alliance many saw no reason to continue fighting since there was nothing to fight for.

 

But they already had Established Bases and Out Posts. Communications wouldn't have been hard to establish and like I said before.. they have one common goal.

This isn't about what would have happened after though. I want to hear if you think the Empire would have Already destroyed the Rebels before there was even a Death Star in the First Place.

 

If you want to know what would have happened before the Death Star had been created, all you have to do is look at ANH. Palpatine still maintained the Imperial Senate for a semblance of democracy. All the while, he probably looked out for any threat, which would include the rebels. Then came the fully-operational Death Star. Once he realized a rebellion existed, he would set a trap, which he did in ROTJ to destroy them.

Palpatine allowed them to exist until ROTJ. His allowing Vader to track them and their hidden base was, as most of Palpatine's plans are, a double ruse to test Vader as well as to reveal his opponents (including Vader and Luke). He is a patient Sith. Everything was proceeding according to his design. He could have defeated the rebels prior to the creation of either Death Star, but he decided not to, in order to rid himself of all opposition once and for all by identifying all his enemies. He failed by not identifying one crucial one in th end - Vader.

 

But they already had Established Bases and Out Posts. Communications wouldn't have been hard to establish and like I said before.. they have one common goal.

Even if that were true, what if the Imperial warlords didn't agree on how to achieve their common goal? They wouldn't be very unified then.

 

Yes DLM makes a very good point as to the admirals working together to defeat the rebels. There would've been massive conflicts between the lot of them as to how to go about it.

And do I think the Empire could've won? Well yeah they could've won, it's not like they didn't have to resources to do so. It really came down to how they played the cat and mouse game of war.

 

Remember ANH? The generals were all bickering. Motti was supremely confident in his branch of the service -- in this case the Death Star -- and denigrated another branch, the fleet.

Interservice rivalries happen even in the best government systems. During World War II the American Army and Navy frequently disagreed with each other on how to beat Japan, and that was with a clear, democratically elected leader steering! In the Empire, with its backbiting and intense rivalries, with fear keeping the local systems in line, Palpatine's death would be like releasing the pressure. All the internal conflicts would boil over, dozens of systems would make political tracks for the Rebel Alliance, and so on.

Of course, the more enlightened Imperials would recognize this, and try to stave it off. But in a system like Palpatine's, the greediest rise to the top. Suddenly the boss is gone, so the top rank, made up of major greedies, will of course make a stab at it.

Of course, Lucas made it look like final victory, but that was for the drama; of course it wasn't. A lot of people are too quick to claim victory, in this world or any other. However, it was a smashing blow to the Empire. The Rebels would now be in a far better position.

 

Even if that were true, what if the Imperial warlords didn't agree on how to achieve their common goal? They wouldn't be very unified then.

The Empire had been Established for 20 Some Years. Im sure they could find some way to agree.

Besides, the Death Star Arguement, thats one thing. They're agrguing about the Death Star, not who gets Control of the Empire

If I was Vader/Emperor, the Rebels wouldn't have made it off Hoth. First of all, they didn't have ONE TIE in Space. The Star Destroyers are immobilized, the Transports just speed by-STUPID!.

Then, this is what I hate the Most! Ewoks, take out the best Troop the Empire has to offer. With what? STICKS!!!!!!

The Imps had been fighting the Rebels for a Long Time, the Admirals had been out there for one thing: To destroy the Rebels. Now, their Leader dies and they Automatically Just Forget about the Rebls? NO!

I would be bustling like Crazy to get rid of them, Systems would join the Rebels-yada yada yada. Thats not too smart

 

The answer is yes.

JHC has it right. I'll add to that after ROTJ any Imperial remnants could have easily been handled by Rebel forces because of the lack of cohesion among the Moffs/Military. It's about power in the Empire and freedom in the Rebellion.

The old saying (paraphrased), "You can control a man's back, but you'll never control his heart. He who gives you his heart, gives you his all." Hereinlies the difference between Imperials and Rebels.

If you want to compare this possibility, look at Hannibal and his battles. His very small army won battle after battle against much much larger foes.

 

The Empire most likely would not have been defeated by the Rebels. They had too much power compared to a small band that wouldn't even constitute a fraction of a percent of the population in the galaxy. Guerilla warfare can also only you get you so far. The Rebels never could've taken Coruscant therefore they probably never would've won. Also at most they could only liberate one planet from imperial rule. Their forces are too small to overtake a planet in control of the Empire with an endless supply of Stormtroopers.

 

The rebels wouldn't have had to take Coruscant or liberate entire planets. That's the nature of guerilla warfare. Since the Empire was controlled by the military and the citizens were loyal to it because of fear, hit-and-fade attacks that were damaging to the military would have been damaging to the entire Empire.

Also, I disagree that the argument over the DS was insignificant. What if the DS had still existed at the time of the Emperor's death? Motti might have wanted to go around destroying planets, but the fleet would have refused to protect him because they would have their own agenda. As a result, they would both be more vulnerable to attack.

 

Look at this way. If I had an entire legion of imperial stormtroopers defeated by the care bares I'd surreder too.

 

I will defer about what DLM has to say about liberating planets however. Even though this was guerilla warfare, the Alliance did have to implement a few "common" war tatics into its stratedgy. It's not like "regular" guerilla warfare a group of rebels in a country try to overthrow their government or occupying forces. The Alliance had to liberate planets to stay afloat of supplies and recruits. They also needed planets so they could have a fall back position in a certain sector should something happen. And given the mass importance of Coruscant they couldn't just wait for the populace to overthrow the staggering government. They needed to assault the planet to clear Imperial warships and to take out defences on planet. Also waiting to take Coruscant would've cost them valuable information that the Imperials would've destroyed once they noticed the government was going to crash.

 

What I was basicly trying to say was that I think that the battles of Yavin and Endor did to the empire what the battle of verdun did to France. A psychological wrecking.

The mighty empire fights a long war against the weak Rebel Alliance. Perhaps they win a decent amount of the battles or more but perhaps never decisively. However they discover in the some of their battles that the Rebel Alliance while apparently unable to win the war can inflict major defeats unpon them.

You see.


More than moral loss can result. Defeatism can come about.

 

The only thing I'd like to add is the problem of inertia. This is a galaxy-wide established Empire that has fallen to a much smaller Rebel Alliance. Even if they triumph militarily and change the nameplate over the places of leadership, I doubt that the Rebellion has enough beingpower to staff, say, the 3rd District Court of Boring Midsized Planet II. It'll have to use low-level ex-Imperials to staff positions for many years, meaning that their victory is a bit shallow.

"Meet the new boss-same as the old boss!" Maybe I've been listening to too much Who lately.

 

The only reason the Empire lost was because it was a Movie and Good Guys always have to win in the movies
So while you refuse to accept any EU explainations...and blame everything on SW being nothing but a sterotypical movie (where the good guys always win), what do you want to hear? That the Empire got gyped?

The fact is, Palpatine's Empire was based on the fear of his (or Darth Vader's) wrath. Even those who served in the Imperial Forces were subject to swift and brutal punishment: Admiral Ozzel get choked...Piett becomes an Admiral! With the removal of this threat the Imperial Forces become nothing more then heavily equiped bullies.

With news of Palpatine and Vader's death at Endor, the Imperial machine lost it's "fear factor" and the general public now had faith that if the Rebel Alliance could destroy Palpatine...they could protect us from Imperial rule.