Saga Could the Jedi Cause an Imbalance in the Force?

I never mentioned consent. Let me reiterate:
Fact: Sex is a natural mammilian instinct that relieves the urge to procreate/orgasm.

 

I'm not really sure what you are getting at here. Given the context of the discussion...you might want to think this through.

 

The Supreme Chancellor my point was that they didn't do anything about the building darkness. Since this Council was a hundred years in the past they made a conscience decision not to do anything. In fact something I forgot was that the Jedi weren't sure what to make of the Prophecy of the Chosen One. Some said he/she had already come and gone and others said that because the Sith were gone that there was no need for the Chosen One to come and save the galaxy.

And they themselves didn't know what Balance was if you use the novelization of RotS they didn't know what the Will of the Force was either since I'm pretty sure that Obi-Wan told Padme that the Jedi understood the Will of the Force just as much as a race that is unfamiliar with gravity understands that rivers flow downward. He might have been referring to those that couldn't touch it though.

 

I made that comment to discern the differnce between opinions on sex, and facts. You seemed a bit lost on where you were going concerning consent.

 

And as such negates any responsibility on the part of the individual to any adverse repurcussions from said action.

However in terms of an Order that centres itself around the ideals of control, compassion and empathy how does that relate?

 

They seem to at least consider the possibility of Anakin being the Chosen One after the confirmed existence of Darth Maul. In AOTC and on Mace Windu seems confident that Anakin is indeed the Chosen One, and thus the most important person in the galaxy.

 

The Jedi don't deny basic instincts. They control them, to a higher degree than the average person. We all have the urge to defecate, but we control it and do it in a controlled situation: a bathroom. The Jedi would have no reason to do otherwise.

 

However, someone can consensually abstain from sex without it adversely hindering their emotional, physical or psychological wellbeing. However try and stop yourself from urinating or defecating and pretty soon you'll be changing your pants.

But again you fail to answer the question. The question isn't how the Jedi control themseves but how they marry their tenets of compassion and empathy with the effects on the other person. Afterall, I assume that when you talk about the Jedi not denying their basic instincts you aren't talking about "handy's"

 

No, you essentially claimed that your opinion on sexual relationships was correct as opposed to a 'flawed' opinion. You treated your opinion regarding human sexual relationships as fact. That mammals have sex is, indeed, a fact. That that fact somehow conveys your own attitudes upon human sexual relations as being factual is not correct. And that was your argument. Dogs have sex if left in a room =/= your position on human social relations as being a fact. I was trying to point out that such an argument could be used to argue that non-consensual activity was correct, an argument which I'm sure you would see as fallacious. Do you understand now?

 

You have a point The Supreme Chancellor but it did help that the Sith revealed themselves and Anakin was the only one they knew of that fit the bill of the Chosen One.

There was also a lot of double standard going on as well. In AotC Obi-Wan says that one of his fears for Anakin is that the boy is arrogant which Yoda responses that arrogance is becoming more common among the younger and older Jedi 'too sure of themselves' he says while looking at Obi-Wan and Mace. Yoda can't see that he is arrogant as well. The pot calling the kettle black.

 

But if empathy and mercy motivate a person to feel for the other, you wouldn't put yourself in a psotion that caused another person pain simply for the gratifcation of self.

 

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars."

--George Lucas, Los Angeles Times Interview, 2002.

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

--George Lucas, Time Magazine interview 1999.

"The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

--George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

It is still the good side of the Force, but it is how it is used.

Obi-wan did develop feelings of love towards Santine and though part of him did want to leave the Jedi Order to be with her, he did not. He made a commitment to the Jedi Order and it was one that he was not going to take lightly. Which is similar to what he told Anakin two years earlier As much as it pained him before she was killed, he couldn't truly break his oath as a Jedi. Anakin could because he let his feelings grow out of control and was fostered by Palpatine's offering of the forbidden fruit.

It follows more from the last thousand years since defeating the Sith. Towards the end of the last Sith war, the Jedi had begun taking more drastic measures to avoid turning to the dark side. But in their efforts to do so, they wound up ignoring a simple fact that just because they passed their trails, didn't mean that they were forever free of the dark side. It was always there inside their hearts. Kept at bay by not fighting in wars until it re-emerged now. The war brought out the worst in the Jedi which is what happened to Pong Krell and Barriss Offee, two Jedi who fell to the dark side as a result of the war. In the old EU, many other Jedi had fallen during the course of the war which made things more difficult for the Jedi, who were fighting a threat from within as well as without.

What Yoda's training revealed and is confirmed in the novelization when he's talking to Qui-gon, is that the Jedi Order didn't change over the last thousand years. As Grand Master of the Jedi Order, the oldest and most experienced of the Jedi, he had kept things as they were. He saw no flaws in how the Jedi were trained and so he stayed the course. But the Sith had changed. Darth Bane saw the need for change and began executing it which passed on down the line to Darth Sidious. The Sith did many things differently from before and as a result, they were able to gain power and cause an imbalance to the Force.

PALPATINE: "Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force."

Dogmatic view being that the dark side is something to be avoided and feared.

ANAKIN: "Don’t lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do."

That a Jedi must never use the dark side in order to be at their absolute best. This is what lead to the creation of the Sith, as there were Jedi who believed that they were stronger using the dark side and that as a result, they should rule.

No, there is and will always be evil in the universe. Just as there will be good. That is the Yin and Yang of the universe. But the Sith cannot blur the lines between the two and thus cause an imbalance where the dark side forever dominates. When the Sith are no more, the universe returns to the natural state of good and evil fighting it out. The dark side is represented by the base nature of man. Greed, fear, anger, hate, jealous, etc. The light is derived from selflessness, compassion, charity and mercy.

That's how life works in general. Both sexes are notorious for not giving a damn about the feelings of the other, after getting what they want. Sure, that other person would be upset, but they would get over it in time and move on.

 

And how would that last point translate to the Jedi Order?

 

If Mace and Mon Mothma decided to become friends with benefits, and after a time she developed an attachment, he'd shrug his shoulders and say, "Not my problem" and leave. And in a few days, that would be that. She'd move on and the world would continue.

 

And so empathy and compassion for that couple of days are put on hold until Mon Mothma pulls herself together? How dispassionately Jedi.

 

The first of those doesn't really fit in with Lucas' assertion that the prophecy was fulfilled, and balance bought to the galaxy by destroying the Sith and removing evil from the galaxy.... (and the idea that Yin Yang is a depiction of good-evil is somewhat amiss)

The second kind of explores what I was getting at with the simply dualistic nature of the Force, in response to;

"The living Force has two sides, as opposed to three, four, five, or fifteen. If we concede that the dark side and the bad side are the same thing, this leaves little room for doubt as to the identity of the other side."


as stated by Lucas here this is just the "simplest parts" as opposed to the only parts. Further to that point...

...so indeed there do seem to be more facets of the Force than just two sides.

So...as I said, nothing in the movies then? As for Eu (books, comics, cartoons) all I can say is

And in another post I said

"The only claim that the Jedi fear the darkside in the PT comes from Anakin, and he has at that point embraced the darkside, seeing it as a route to knowledge and power (to be clear on the context here, he has not acknowledged his darkside and dealt with it)."

"The only mention of the Jedi being dogmatic in their rejection of the darkside is from Palpatine, as he attempts to get Anakin in the place where he is when he speaks of not fearing the darkside as the Jedi do. Again, hardly the most reliable of witnesses as to the nature of the Jedi's view of the darkside."

 

The evil in the galaxy being the shroud of the dark side that has fallen because of what happens in the PT. It's the equivalent of dumping toxic waste into a lake. You've got to clean it out and restore it to the way it was before.

As to the rest, you're missing the point. Yoda believed that he long since conquered the dark side within himself until he enters the cave and is confronted by his dark side self. Yoda initially rejects that this is himself if he went to the dark side, but ultimately accept that it is him. That it is part and parcel of who he is and who he could become. Once he accepts that, the creature no longer has any hold over him and vanishes. When Luke walks into the cave years later and kills Vader, he sees the face under the mask is his own. He doesn't understand until later that he is seeing himself. Seeing what he will become because he has the darkness within him as well and that to defeat the darkness, he must stop fighting.

 

darth-sinister I'm not missing any point. I'm aware of what the point is supposed to be, I'm simply providing the obvious insight that no such story exists within the movies. The movies do not make that point. There is no way in which one could ascertain that contextualisation of such a supposed 'evolution' in the Jedi's thinking from the movies. There is no referent within the movies for that understanding.

 

How is Yoda arrogant?

 

His entire manner is arrogant.

 

So far this is the first thing you've said that has made sense.

Oh so you have no examples of him being arrogant, but he just is. Okay. I'll take your word for it.

 

How does one tell an arrogant manner from a non-arrogant manner?

 

To each their own.