Saga Count Dooku being a Sith ... or Not Really a Sith?

A title means very little it is one's actions and motives that define. I have never seen Dooku as a Sith. Never will either. I believe his goals and intent for departing the Jedi were noble. One need not be called Jedi to have sound motive or intent. Jedi rarely do.

 

His motives and his aims in leaving the Order may very well have been noble... it's what he did next that isn't, by any definition. For all the mud flung at the Jedi for using an Army of clones (rightly or wrongly) they didn't actually create the army, or order it created, or fund it in anyway - that was Tyranus and his new bestie Darth Sidious. That, and all the war crimes carried out by the Separatist Alliance of which he was the functional day to day leader. Oh yeah, and all the people he killed along the way, either in person or by ordering others. Other than that, he's a pretty straight up dude.

 

I think Palpatine didn't give Dooku the whole Sith training and indoctrination because it could have made him potentially more powerful than he was.

Palpatine had more raw power (I think George Lucas said that Sidious had like 80 % of Anakin's raw power, but Dooku, Darth Maul and cyborged Darth Vader all had less raw power than Palpatine), but Dooku was superbly trained and if made more powerful he would have been a menace for about any foe.

Dooku was always intended to be a sacrifical lamb, a pawn, he was too old and set in his ways to be completely reshaped into a mere tool, so Palpatine only gave him just enough to lure him. He purposely denied Darth Maul any training that wasn't about fighting, and he probably denied Dooku any arcane secret that could make him rival Palpatine.

The novels claim that his public image was largely false, and that his motives weren't so pure as he pretended. He was basically a sociopath without real emotions who strongly believed in the superiority of Force users over common rabble, and who was obsessed about order. He was offended by the Galaxy's lack of of order and discipline and wanted to create a totalitarian regime enforced by an army of Dark Jedi.

 

Yeah, he needed Dooku so he had someone to actually run the Separatist campaign hands on whilst he himself handled the Senate as Palpatine, not to mention he still had to finalise the turning of Anakin. Dooku was a stopgap in Sidious' eyes but that doesn't excuse Dooku from his own actions as he did all those himself, fully believing he'd be around to enjoy the fruits of his labours.

 

I was answering to the original post, and saying why I don't think he fully embraced the Sith ways. Palpatine didn't even try to turn him into a full Sith, and if he had tried, he would have probably failed. Dooku was already an old man, set in his ways and with fully formed ideas of his own.

Also, teaching all the Sith arcane secrets would have made him a threat even for Palpatine, so his training was purposely incomplete.

 

Dooku was just a pawn. He may have been a powerful jedi in his day, but lack of faith in the order made him weak to the darkside. Palpatine could see this and therefore used him. They both had similar goals, just not exactly the same vision. With Dooku being older and wiser than most, his abilities were utilised to the fullest. I don't think lopping Anakin's arm off was part of the deal though?

 

I don't think it was the fact he saw the Jedi (correctly) as flawed that made him susceptible. Honestly, *everyone* was played by Sidious yet I only see the 'dark ones' ever sneered or scorned for it. The Jedi were pawns too. Dooku leaving the Jedi doesn't make him weak.

 

I don't think Dooku was pure evil, he became somewhat of a terrorist. He believed in what he was doing. Palpatine abused him, bended his mind. I think he never really knew his place beyond the jedi

 

Obi-Wan said it best:

"It takes strength to resist the dark side. Only the weak embrace it!"

 

The prequels don't do subtle, but the one scene in ROTS that stuck in my mind was Dooku's death. He's absolutely shocked at Palpatine's persuasion for his execution. For me, this shows that dooku is just a means to an end. He either doesn't know Sidious' true identity, or he truly can't believe he means so little in the grand scheme. I think he was blinded by his own ideals, which doesn't make him evil. He had tunnel vision and didn't see it coming! He was never a Sith! Considering his years of wisdom, I see him as a sad and naive figure

 

That I can go with.

 

I should be ashamed of myself ...

 

Ah! But a Sith Lord with an interesting perspective eh?

Considering then he wasn't like the Ancient Sith Lords with a mob-barbaric mentality of 'Beast eats Beast!' nor exactly like Palpatine who was downright sadistic, violent, cruel, uncaring, manipulative and such ...

And considering Count Dooku still at times made references to the Jedi Order and such ... and in the EU did at one point in Vjun consider returning to the Jedi Order via a personal meet with Master Yoda and in the Clone Wars where we have hints of what he was once as Jedi 'Master Dooku' with Master Yoda ...and how Count Dooku at times still referred to Sifo Dyas and how he did try to get Obi-Wan Kenobi to join him for a new government in the Galaxy as he had saw fit ... and how he even remarked they would work together and destroy the Sith ...

And considering Count Dooku whilst still cruel and arrogant - he wasn't one who used strong emotions like most Sith Lords nor did he get Force-happy like Anakin or Palpatine ...

 

Atleast Count Dooku still did have a form of honor to an extent and if not, sentimental feeling and value to the Jedi Order; considering Master Yoda was once his Jedi Master at one point ... and the fact whereas Palpatine didn't 'give a Force' about anyone ... and the fact Palpatine murdered his family at the young age of 17 in the EU in the Darth Plagueis novel and would do anything to get what he wanted regardless of the cost, both physical and emotional ... whereas Count Dooku - well ... he did consider returning to the Jedi Order in the EU via the mission to Vjun ... and the fact how in the Lost Missions where Count Dooku in a brief moment was hesitant when Palpatine claimed how he would make use of the arcane Sith ritual and potion - by taking advantage of Count Dooku's 'former bond with Master Yoda' and Count Dooku didn't seem exactly 100% happy to that even if it was a brief moment ...

 

He got screwed over yeah. But he was a Sith. He was a Sith in the same manner that someone who went to culinary school and cooks for work is a chef.

Next thread: Was the Millennium Falcon REALLY a ship???

 

He was a Sith Lord in the same vein as a burger van owner thinking he's Gordon Ramsay!

I never implied he wasn't an actual Sith. He was never a true Sith in his motives.
He was Palpatine's whipping boy, after Darth Maul.
I think Palpatine used him as a stepping stone, with no true ambition or belief in him. He got his Clone Army...Dooku is then obsolete!

Michelin star chefs do employ dishwashers, dont they?

 

No, what's never used in the films is the term "true Sith."

The Sith however, are marked by their use of the Darth title and their plot to destroy the Jedi/Republic.

 

Would you class Dooku, as he is mostly referred to in the prequels, a 'true' Sith...who's only ambition is to wipe out the Jedi order?

 

If you read above my argument is the term "true Sith" isn't used in the films, and isn't relevant. There are two Force using groups in the films, the Jedi and the Sith. There is no effort made to qualify what characteristics make one a "true Sith." Dooku was a Jedi, then he left and obviously became a Sith. And yes, the plot if more fleshed out in the original EU, where Palpatine assigns Dooku to find the prime clone and he selects Jango Fett because Fett was a proven Jedi killer. From the beginning of it's inception the clone army, largely backed by Dooku, was intended for the purpose of wiping out the Jedi.

 

You see, I don't have your knowledge. I'll fold on the whole 'true' Sith discussion, you win.
However, I don't follow the EU as much as most, but after Disney that seems pointless these days. The films are where it's at for me. I just read between the lines, and for most part I'm pretty much spot on!
Discard the supposed facts and lore of Jedi and Sith...just feel it and you know I'm right. Feel it, come on?!

 

No. In the films alone Dooku betrayed the Jedi Order, organized a false war that resulted in the deaths of millions, was untruthful and manipulative, and showed no care or respect for the lives of others. Just because he was tricked in the end by someone cleverer than him it doesn't make him some sort of tragic figure. He was a powerful man who desired more power and it became his undoing.

 

More pathetic than tragic, I'd say. More weakness than power. You could say that about Anakin and all of the Sith for that matter...we could be here all day and never get anywhere.

That's why you must feel it!

Come on... you feeling it yet?

 

What was weak about him? He brought the CIS together to start a war. He seems to be in command of all the droid on Geonosis. He defeated Anakin and Obi-Wan and fought Yoda to a standstill.

 

Ok, I get it. You really like Dooku don't you? My charm isn't persuading you at all, is it? So, yay. Dooku rules... Woooh!