Books CRUCIBLE by Troy Denning: The Official Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

This will sound like I'm complaining a lot but it's mostly to show the contrast I feel about the ideas in this book and the execution of them.

The big one I specifically mentioned was Barduun. The notion of someone not "awakening" to the Force but having it thrust upon them is interesting. He's not Force Sensitive. He gains that from the monolith. It's a very interesting notion that could have made him an interesting villain since he's also Mandalorian. Everyone is touched by the Force, sure. But here's this Mandalorian who has no particular connection to it and then "Bam!".

It reminds me of how Desann used the Valley of the Jedi, except in this case it's a total accident. The issue is that it makes Barduun insane. I think it's a really big missed chance. Dalien was fascinating in Lebbon's Dawn of the Jedi book. Someone who hates the power he has. There was a chance for more depth here. The book's villains could have afforded it. Similarly, I have no objections to using Mirta and Vestara. They're just not used well.

Some of this ties back to the whole monolith thing. I don't like that they're literal but on a functional level Denning's use of the idea is sound enough if we have to go down that path. He just doesn't have much of an idea on "rules" for being inside one. Things just sort of happen...because. The thing with this book is that there's a lot of chance to tie things together.

Heck, speaking of Dawn of the Jedi, if he really wanted to do something interesting he could have easily made the monolith turn out to be a Tho Yor. That's my thing. Denning has all the set up. He just doesn't have the followthrough.

 

I think the suggestion has been made that the monoliths are in some way related to the Tho Yor, but I think that's a secret Lucasfilm and/or Ostrander and Duuresema are holding on to for the moment.

 

I gotta say, I really enjoyed this book and am not nearly bothered by Denning's characterizations as everyone else. My only real disappointment was that the monolith did not, apparently, turn out to be Mortis. I was looking forward to Luke being visited by an echo of Anakin or something and hinting at Luke's effect on the balance of the universe.

 

This meme needs to die/stop now. R.A. Salvatore was legitimately scared away from the forums. Others really, really not so much. Just let that die.

Thank you.

 

It's supposed to be mysterious. That's kind of the point.

 

That darkside Mando could have been interesting but once they introduced Creepy Leia... um, ew. Still not sure if he was just crazy, partially possessed or what.

For all its problems, the TCW Mortis episodes are easy enough to write off as a vision, dream, whatever. Since aside from a really old Jedi code, they all wake up back in the shuttle with no other proof than their memories (I think). Trying to make sense of Mortis... well, its a longshot but against Abeloth there's not really anything else they can draw on, as she predates the Jedi.

Mystic Force battles are hard to pull off, and Denning doesn't really have the... descriptions down. When I think of mental combat, I think of like when Cronal was trying to break Leia in Mindor. In Apocalypse, the final battle came off more as these three blobs of Force energy (Luke, Krayt and Abeloth) fighting it out. Crucible coming so soon after Apocalypse doesn't help either. Most of the major Star Wars authors reuse their own characters, terms, etc. if they've been writing Star Wars long enough. But FotJ with Abeloth and then Crucible with the monolith seems like too close together. Especially since it doesn't add anything to the Mortis hunt (aside from proof that something is out there and to avoid that area).

I still hate the NJO, it started a lot of things that are still prevalent in the novels (galactic government incompetence, everybody hates the Jedi, etc.). Its just that its become more tolerable when in subsequent series we got many of the worst parts of the NJO without most of the good parts.

If the retirement sticks and we see the next generation as the new leads, maybe it'll mean good new stories. But the retirement thing just rings hollow for me, not just because its a retread of a lot of what TUF presented (in a much better manner), but also, things aren't really peaceful. At the end of TUF, it was as about a happy ending as possible after all the pain and misery of NJO (Vong defeated, galaxy united, Jedi on the rise), but here, while they solve the current problem of this Monolith, there's still plenty of other problems like the Tribe Sith, Vestara especially, the Krayt Sith (since Luke met Krayt in Apocalypse), Abeloth and Galactic Alliance relations (when Luke Skywalker can't even meet publicly with a GA Senator, something is seriously wrong) all to fix. At the end of Crucible, supposedly because the New Jedi Order is officially strong enough, Luke can take a break. Its one of the reasons I disliked Apocalypse, it left a lot of loose threads, wrecked the One Sith secrecy for no good reason, and things looked bleak. Even viewing Crucible as a standalone, the post-FotJ galaxy doesn't sound that great, so it just doesn't seem like a good year to finally retire. But then something close to a Force revelation suggested it was time to retire, so why not. The Force said so is an easy excuse to move any plot along (such as Jaina going to kill Jacen, the Force said Luke shouldn't so its up to Jaina).

Here's hoping future plots take advantage of the retirement to focus on other characters. Its not the last great Big Three novel I would have liked (heck, Millennium Falcon could have been a better last Han and Leia novel for me), but at least it wasn't worse. No major character died, but after Jacen and Mara there's not many other big EU characters to kill off. Which is sad to say, but after LotF and FotJ, its the best I can hope for.

Halsey sounds like that? Hm, I've only rented Halo 4 so only saw her in the opening movie, so that's the only exposure I've had to her, though I've glanced through some of the Halo background info, but seems like whatever Halsey is up to is part of whatever big story they're setting up for the next trilogy/saga.

 

Okay, read the book, coming here now to drop my response without reading the whole thread (bad science, I know, but... time!!!)

For the first two thirds (heh 1st 2 3rds ) I really, really liked this book. I liked the frequent changes of perspective (for some time a new perspective every chapter), the slow revealing of information, the clever antagonists, the way Denning tried to evoke a sense of things having evolved (e.g. the discussion about Jedi training on Shedu Maad, the Neutrality Act, the background politics in general); I was excited to see him picking up plot threads from Apocalypse (the Mandalore nanokillers, the search for Mortis, Vestara, Luke's wound) as well as introducing potentially-interesting new characters (Soroc, Barduun, even Kaeg was on the verge of becoming an interesting character before Denning apparently forgot that he was there).
I even enjoyed the freaky sabbacc tournaments because for a while they made me wonder where the NCH Denning was going with all this.
And I was rather impressed how Denning was raising the stakes all the time for the first part of the book, putting the characters into situations that made me go "whoa, he has to have something really awesome up his sleeve to let them get out of this again / to resolve all of this".

Only... he hadn't. From the moment the tables turned against the Qrephs and it was obvious that what was happening was not, in fact, part of their clever plan, everything kind of went nowhere. Barduun? Dead before we got any real insight in him apart from "angry insane badass". All the biots, creepy Leia (the whole Princess scheme, too), Dena, the Nargons? Dead, gone, all their implications ignored. Vestara and Gev? Fled, no showdown, no resolution, no word from them. Even the Qrephs themselves die practically off-screen, and the whole business with their mother is never resolved. The monolith? Oh we don't know, maybe some other monolith, what were you expecting, answers?
And worst of all -- the epimythion, the moral, the point of it all. Luke saying, "hey, we should retire". THAT is the big insight all of this was building up to? That's all you can do with a space-and-time-bending ancient Force-giving artifact? Seriously?

For the first part of the book I thought, awesome! Denning is taking the chance to wrap up all that stuff from Apocalypse, give us some closure, maybe even make FotJ seem worthwhile in retrospect because NOW it all comes together. And if you ask me, that's what he SHOULD have done, seeing as this might turn out to be the final (timeline-wise) book of the old EU. But no, he had to leave everything dangling and unresolved like he was expecting years and years of follow-up fiction to pick up where he left things off.

So here's wishing for somebody more capable to write a fic that replaces the sizzle that's the end of Crucible with some real bang.

 

Says the poster who couldn't be bothered to use periods at the end of four out of six sentences in one of his posts (#887) on this thread. Mind you, normally I don't go out of my way to point out the grammar or spelling mistakes of others because I know I've made more than a few of my own, but I decided to made an exception in your case since you're guilty of what you denounce in others.

Could you point me to all the negativity toward Shatterpoint or Dark Rendezvous? Because I don't remember either of those Clone Wars novels getting anywhere near the negativity that Crucible is now facing (and that Invincible faced before it). Certainly the Amazon reviews of Shatterpoint and Dark Rendezvous, most of which date back to the period before the TV series, don't indicate widespread hatred of those two books to me.

I certainly didn't. But IMO the reason that the book is facing so much negativity isn't just because many view it as a bad book in and of itself; it's because it's yet another Troy Denning novel. Since the end of the NJO, there's been 22 'core' novels (23 if one adds Millenium Falcon). Of all these novels, Denning has written no fewer than 10, which is nearly half. For those of us who dislike Troy Denning's writing, that's a lot of bad books to swallow. Especially since, again IMO, Denning's writing hasn't improved one bit in all this time, and some his more repellent writing traits (characters behaving too brutally, torture fetish, non-Force users not mattering in comparison with Force users) are even amplified in Crucible.

If Denning hadn't been so involved in the planning of the post-NJO storyline and/or hadn't written so many of the 'core' post-NJO novels, I believe there would be a lot less negativity toward him and Crucible.

 

AlyxDinas - no that didn't sound negative - not even near, compared to most of the rest of this thread. Thanks for expanding on your comment! And I can definitely see your point - Barduun would have made an interesting later villain. Then again, if he'd been allowed to live (like Abeloth was) people wouldn't have considered the book, closed, I guess... See also my comment below.

I'm glad to see somelone like at least part of the book - it makes discussing easier. I really think you have point here, yet, it also touches the nature of the MASS of EU versus series and standalones... We've been dying for ages to get a standalone - but now we get one, two things become clear, I think

1) It's very hard to create a story witht the old heroes and characters that doesn't touch on what's happened earlier in the EU. Indeed, it's not necessarily a good thing if they do. One of the main complaints on the latest discussion of SOTE and VOTF was, that the characters were like nothng had happened since TTT, they still were "the same" and still referring almost solely to the OT. Well, Crucible is built on the recent novels, just as Zahn's stories are built on each other, there's no denying it. But what is the alternative? Strories where the heroes havn't developed since 4 ABY?

2) Many of us, still want the story to 'go on'! Even after a closed story arch. How then write a standalone? Is it at all possible?

I can definitely see your points. There was much that needed to be closed after LOTF. Then we got nine books of FOTJ. But now there is still much that needs to be closed down concerning FOTJ. What we got, was a standalone. Wich people have been crying out loud for. And indeed, much of what is complained on this thread is still the other, earlier stories.

I'm so glad to see you say that! I enjoyed the book myself. Then again, I can count on my hand the times when a book rising the stakes has really delivered, so I didn't have my hopes that high up. Indeed, I think Crucible wrapped it pretty tidely up: the villains died, the epic villains (Mirtha Gev and Vestara Khai) lived to put up a threat another day - or even, maybe, get redeemed. We got a plausible reason for why the big 3 needed to step aside (I still think tis silly they have too, but I've learned on these boards I'm a minority) - yet the ending was very cheerful and with new adventures waiting around the corner.

 

My main problem with the end of this novel is that I don't think Luke would just go away. Step back, sure...but disappear? I don't feel that at all. It would be awesome to see him "go Yoda" in the sense that he's hanging at the academy, teaching the kids, and letting the council take a greater portion of leadership.

To me, the Grandmaster is kind of like the pope. He should be a spiritual guide, not an action hero. Sure, you should have to have been an action here to be grandmaster, but at this point thats not what you are. Luke definitely needs to stay around, just not headlining novels anymore.

I would really love to see more Ben Skywalker focused novels, and Luke's sole involvement would be Ben asking for some advice or something.

 

I agree. Personally I don't care if people make minor spelling or grammatical mistakes. It only gets annoying when it makes a sentence sound stupid. That's just hard to read.

eg. "could of"

It wouldn't bother me if someone fails to use full stops or makes little typos lol

Also that would make it even more epic if and when he finally does draw his lightsaber once more, a la Yoda in AOTC

 

That's what happened when Luke pwned Shimrra. Luke doesn't draw his light saber often in the NJO, but when he does something awesome happens.

 

Eh, Luke's already been taking doctrinal authority for a while now, and now the Jedi looking more like the old order than ever. I don't have a problem with him giving advice, but he ought to step back from telling younger Jedi what to think for a while and let the order grow on it's own. Like it or not, the guy's become the old guard.

I always figured the natural endgame for Luke was to wander. Take his ship and start cruising the outer rim looking for actual people to help instead of fighting someone else's big war in the name of some nebulous galactic good. Occasionally dropping by some temple or whatever to see what's what, becoming an actual living legend, instead of ending up a worn-out relic from some 40-20 year old war.

But, Sith. That's probably not gonna happen. Gotta get in on that heresy expungin'.

WRONG. It's coulda, or could've if you want to get technical about it.

 

The only Clone Wars novels most people disliked were Jedi Trial and The Cestus Deception. The MedStar books tended not to inspire very strong feelings either way, but Shatterpoint, Dark Rendevous, Hard Contact, and Labyrinth of Evil were beloved from day one. The rest of the RC series was pretty divisive, but back when all KT had written was Hard Contact, "Targets," and her two Vader stories, she was like the new breakout writer of the EU, she was so popular.

Except hopefully more epic and less comical and embarrassing.

 

Fortunately, if I'm not mistaken, Shatterpoint, Dark Rendezvous, and Labyrinth of Evil have emerged from TCW unscathed.

 

I actually rather liked The Cestus Deception- though I can see why people found Jedi Trial underwhelming. It has its moments- but overall it wasn't impressive.

 

I like TCD too, but for the most part it was fairly poorly received. Jedi Trial was just agonizing.

 

It was obvious that Jedi Trial was written by a couple of Cold War Era retired army officers. That book was like reading Army doctrine, but with lightsabers sprinkled in.

 

I liked Jedi Trial. Cestus Deception did nothing for me.

 

And I believe he does it poorly. That's kind of mine.

Literally, he has to say "This may or may not be Mortis". Someone says that. Those words. From their lips. Don't say that, show it. Imply it. Give readers enough context clues that the place is amazingly similar but different. Don't just have a character come out and go "Or is it?"; that's poor writing. The scenes inside the monolith lack the proper degree of mystery because they lack the illusion of purpose. Whatever happens in there just sort of happens because it's what Denning writes and not because the reader gets the notion that the realm has vaguely understandable but still indefinable rules. What occurs is far too rapid and far too lacking in the illusion of cohesion.


Mystery is cultivated over time in any medium. It's a planted thing. It takes root and slowly sprouts as we watch and try to figure out what will emerge from the unclear mud surrounding it. Mystery is created through subtlety and deftly crafted words and scenarios. Mystery is not created by the culmination of the random. Mystery is a magic trick that makes a reader think that if they read closely, they'll discover the secret. Mystery is carved with the precision of a surgeon's blade.

It's not jabbed into the reader's mind like a lobotomy spike.

 

Any effective mystery ends with a resolution - where's Denning's?

He's had how many books now?

Without a resolution a mystery just becomes plot plate-spinning.

 

Yeah, like in the Dark Tide duology when he used his and Jacen's sabers and took on several Vong at once, or when he was an immovable wall on Dantooine. And let's not forget his fight with Lord Nyax.

JT definitely falls below Shatterpoint, Dark Rendezvous, and even Cestus Deception (which I loved, BTW), but JT will always be nostalgic for me because it was the first Star Wars adult EU novel I read (and I was 10-12 years old, I believe). It was far easier to comprehend than Shatterpoint, which was very deep. And another CW book (well, books) that will always hold childhood value is MedStar. At 13 or so, I read them, and I was agonizing for days over who the spy was, hoping it wasn't Tolk and Jos wouldn't get his heart broken in the end. I was also stricken with sadness when Zan died. And the whole snow-on-a-swamp-planet part was classic for a 13-year-old. Sometimes it's the details that keeps you happy, sometimes it's the simple "things-happen" of books.

 

That was about the only good thing about that book. Reality-based ground battles were a hoot.

 

I guess here's my problem with this scene (and incidentally, a lot of the Jedi philosophy): it's very human-centric. Okay, fine, maybe a human Jedi would have been able to control his emotions and reactions under such provocation, but this is a TOGORIAN male. If he's anything like other Togorian males, he's a lot more about instinct than calm, cold calculation. Can he be judged the same way under those circumstances? This was not a random occurence or obstacle that he used the dark side to circumvent, it was a calculated effort designed precisely to get exactly that reaction out of him.