I liked Dark Journey as well. For me, NJO was where Jaina became human instead of this amazing super-child. She battles real emotions and questions about her sense of self. She was flawed, but it was those flaws that made it possible to relate to her. I couldn't relate to Jacen by the end of Traitor, but I could relate to Jaina. The question of who she is in relation to her parent's shadow, how to handle her emotions... All of those were things I liked and kept me engaged in the books. I could also relate to her relationship with Jag in DJ, because, frankly, my husband and I had the same sort of relationship in the beginning. The DNT... Well, I guess most authors have a WTF? book, but that was insane. Denning was interesting to read as far as writing style, but he really did the EU no favors. In reading interviews, I get where he *wanted* to go, but holy cow the execution was OFF. There were other ways to show that Jaina hadn't dealt with Myrkyr, other ways to start Jacen down the dark path.
I guess i don't really care about the Hapan storyline. Also i was still numb with Anakin dying and Jacen vanished. i wanted to see Luke's reaction to all this, not read a novel vacant from the overreaching plot.
Regarding several people in this discussion saying Luke should act like Clone Wars-era Yoda did in future novels, I quote a post of mine from another thread-
Hm, I'm actually disappointed that some of the "filler" books still had plots that included all main characters and seemed to be as important as the main novels. I was pretty down with the idea that they might go off show some other guy do some other stuff on some other planet in a paperback. A proper Kyp novel, for example - DJ was probably the best in that regard. Not having Jaina chained to her parents and Jacen to Luke in Force Heretic. That way, I love how Dark Journey just let the events of the previous main novel sink in by working with them with an extremely tight focus.
Eh, Yoda wasn't complacent, and he wasn't sitting on his behind. He was leading a war effort, coordinating all the Jedi, and heading out into the field when needed. Do you think the Joint Chiefs of Staff are running around the battlefield all day? Are they not serving? Are they not doing anything? Are they complacent? If Yoda doesn't command the GAR, who does? How does not being on the battlefield make you complacent? Yoda's "failure" was his failure to anticipate that the Sith would take a new form -- his allowing the way the Jedi thought about threats to stagnate and calcify. It's a failure of the particulars of his teaching and leadership, not a result of being in the Temple. If he'd gone running around in the field all day, would that have meant he'd figure out Palpatine's plot? You're making a causation argument where there's barely even correlation. Luke could perfectly well take the Yoda role in the way people are actually talking about -- concentrating on teaching and leadership, and trusting that anyone in his Order other than himself could handle a threat, trusting that the people he trained and led could do their jobs -- without this idea that there would be attendant complacency and failure. Nobody's asking Luke to be complacent. They're asking him to either believe in the other members of his Order, or train them well enough that he can believe in them. Luke wants to make things right? Okay. What's right about building an Order that can't function without you at the head doing everything yourself? That's not a Jedi Order, that's Palpatine's Empire. Luke wants to make things right? We're asking that he step back from his youthful preoccupation with having to be at the forefront of every conflict and recognize that, however noble that impulse, however powerful and righteous an instinct, if he continues to indulge it, it cripples the development of everyone else in his Order. So if he wants to do what's right, he has to create a situation in which the Jedi can function without him, and he can trust them to function without his personal intervention. That's not complacency. That's not failure. It's averting failure. It's avoiding a complacent assumption that he can be everywhere and do everything and always save the day and that after making everyone else dependent on him, somehow they'll just be perfectly fine when he's eventually not there.
I just want to see Luke teaching little kids to use lightsabers. Just one scene where the kids are waving around their weapons with blast shields down and then Ben comes in to say hello and they're all adorable and say "Hello Jedi Skywalker" and Ben says "Hello" all annoyed-like and then Luke proceeds to make fun of his son for losing a planet. That's all I want.
I have little to no experience with the Legacy era, so I'm not qualified (chuckle all you want at being "qualified" to judge Star Wars books ), though I definitely feel that Luke can take on more of a Yoda-like role, yet still maintain some of his younger sensibilities. Though much of it has been lost or destroyed, Luke still has thousands upon thousands of years of Jedi history to study, thousands of Jedi to take influence from. The NJO likely does not have enough Jedi for Luke to take a full-time Yoda role, and as Dewback mentioned, I imagine Luke will prefer to take part in missions himself. This was far from unheard of in previous generations of Jedi, of course. Qui-Gon was around the same age as Luke is now, and was as active as ever in Jedi affairs. But of course, if the Jedi order is akin to a kindergarden class who must look to their teacher for every small matter, than Luke has ultimately failed in his goal, the resurrection of a strong Jedi order. Of course, this is mostly the fault of the writers, assuming the audience does not want to read about non-Skywalker Jedi (and who knows, maybe they're right, and we're only a minority). Logically, one would assume that the other Jedi do do important stuff off-screen, and the major stories just happen to focus on the profitable characters, but the little schism in FOTJ would seem to imply otherwise. It's particularly annoying because other sources have practically done their work for them in regards to setting up the other Jedi; Michael Stackpole did a very admirable job in developing Corran Horn, who love him or hate him, is a very fleshed out character that could easily play a starring role. Kyle Katarn has been set up, if not as deeply as Corran, in the Dark Forces games. Kyp Durron got a large amount of character development in the NJO. A whole roster of characters are available for use, and the current authors would not even have to take the time to set up and introduce the characters, because that was done years ago. It's a ridiculous wasted opportunity, like playing a board game and throwing out the majority of the pieces, because you found three or four you like the best. In other words, I do feel that Luke should continue to play an active role in the order he created, both in a teaching role and on the field. But the order he created, which in its every action reflects on him, should be able to function without him as well as with. Even by real world standards, Luke's too young to completely settle in, but he's also the leader of a large organization. The writers should really attempt to reflect both facts. Luke isn't Yoda, and he isn't Qui-Gon, but I feel it's very possible to be both. Or maybe I just want to have my cake and eat it too (putting aside the fact I don't particularly care for cake)
Not big on sweets, though cookies are pretty good. Well, chocolate chip. Can take or leave most other kinds. And I'll go on record saying that beer is terrible. I have very, very narrow food tastes though, but I pride myself on being able to choke down most things for sake of politeness.
Well I'm glad the old fogies are finally getting put out to pasture For too long has the EU been trapped in this reoccurring plot where Han,Leia, and Luke have been the center of everything.
instantdeath, very nice post! Very good points, ID! Luke isn't Yoda. He has always been a more action-oriented character, and I think he would want to continue to take part in missions himself for as long as he is able. As you pointed out, Qui-Gon was an active Jedi at about the same age as Luke, and since the New Jedi Order is much smaller than the old one and since there are so many more threats out there (with two groups of thousands of Sith plus Abeloth), pretty much all Jedi are needed in the field. Even if he wanted to, I don't think Luke could have the luxury of spending the rest of his days just teaching in the Jedi Temple. And sadly, this is pretty much the way the Jedi were portrayed in FotJ. The authors blew a really great opportunity in that series, I think. With Luke and Ben off on their own adventure, they could have had many other characters step up and shine on Coruscant and other worlds and play major roles, proving that they *were* capable, well-traiined, and useful. Instead, we had the Jedi Order under siege by the Mandalorians, not once, but TWICE. And they were written as totally powerless to leave and clueless about how to deal with the situation except by having a death to the duel between Jedi Masters, while Han and Leia had to send them messages on rats! In my opinion, the onus is all on the writers. They COULD write an active, Luke Skywalker playing a major role, while also having other characters play OTHER equally or even more important roles. Luke's presence in the book is *not* the problem. It's the way the authors have been writing these stories and these characters that *is* the problem. Can't they handle more than one major character at a time? I completely agree with this, ID! Well said!
If I can say one thing, I'm not against Luke not being the main character in a story. Heck, one of my favorite EU tales is the YJK series (alas how I miss having a character who shared my horrible sense of humor the way YJK Jacen did!). Luke there is more of a background character, a teacher, and he's always treated with a sense of awe and respect in the way the narrator describes him. He lets the Solo kids go off and have adventures, and only steps in when, well, the problem warrants Luke's involvement. There was no "young generation vs. OT generation DRAMA!!!" in the way this was handled. It was handled with respect to every character. They all were characterized well (at least IMHO), and Luke felt, well, like LUKE SKYWALKER. Despite the decreased emphasis on him. I would be okay with something like this. But Luke and Yoda just have drastically different management styles. Luke isn't the last of the old Jedi- he's the first of the new. Of course he should be different than Yoda- that was even what Yoda wanted. Let him be able to trust young people, yeah- but where's the younger generation he can trust? We've got, what, Jaina and Ben in the younger bracket? And Jaina's "younger" in that she's in her thirty-somethings now. Errm, what younger generation are we supposed to be rooting for, exactly? I'll be content with a more YJK style approach when they actually give me someone who can inspire me enough to want to read about. Now, I love Ben and all, but where's his YJK-style entourage? I loved menagerie-in-his-room-shares-my-love-of-terrible-puns Jacen, Jaina who took after her father as a mechanical piloting genius, Lowbacca, Tenel Ka, even Raynar. But Del Rey wants to annihilate all the younger characters in "ZOMG DRAMA BOMB! SOMEONE DIED" idiocy. I wouldn't be averse to Luke stepping in when he's needed, being active in more offscreen activities. Just give me someone else to care about to take center stage. Jaina has been in mishandling after mishandling, I'm not even sure what to think of her anymore after Del Rey's systematic mangling of her and her family, and while I love Ben, we need more characters than those two to follow and admire as the primary focus of the story (with the older generation there when they're needed and it's a "HELL YES!" moment when they show up). You can't bank an EU on two people. And if Luke's not taking center stage, well, I don't want him stuffed in a closet. I want to know he's still around, and still being Luke, even if we're focusing on other stories. I don't want to drastically change the core of who Luke Skywalker is just to fit a story- in fact, I'm vehemently against people manhandling characters to suit the plot rather than letting the plot suit the characters. This is my problem, and it is twofold- 1. I want Luke Skywalker to still be Luke Skywalker despite the decreased emphasis on him as the central character. No more character assassinations for the sake of drama, thank you. And 2. Who the heck are we supposed to root for who can actually carry a story? Show me a diverse enough younger cast who have all sorts of engaging characteristics so there's something there for everyone to love, and then we'll talk. As it is we're basically getting "The Adventures of Jaina and Ben"- a nice counterpoint to everyone complaining about "The Adventures Of The Big 3". Well, I know which one is worse. At least the Big 3 isn't two characters in completely different age groups. Oh, guess we can throw in Allana too. But then again, she's in yet another age bracket. And with minimal characters in any of the three age brackets to provide a more diverse cast. This is like if we got 30 year old Luke, teenage Leia, and old fogey Han in the OT instead of Luke and Leia and Han all within ten years of each other in age. Oh, and no real supporting cast to help carry the story- goodbye Chewie, Lando, Obi-Wan, etc. We don't really have the kind of supporting cast we need to afford shooting ourselves in the foot and sidelining characters.
If someone were to ask me what I find appealing about the Star Wars EU (well, after denying that I secretly own over fifty Star Wars novels ), I'd say that I love the diversity of stories told in one universe. The entirety of Star Wars, in my eyes, does not center on one character, group of characters, one place, or even one family (even if the Skywalkers are a large centerpiece). To go through the Star Wars EU is to literally watch a whole galaxy evolve over the millennium. I see the galaxy itself as the star of these stories. Now, unfortunately, it seems I love the potential for that diversity of stories more than anything. We no longer have the Adventure Journal, we no longer have Tales... in more ways than one, the GFFA is a smaller place. It just feels so stagnant, particularly since it seems the Legacy era is turning into a poor mans prequel era. That said, I do feel this Sword of the Jedi trilogy could be a step in the right direction. I don't buy that Crucible is the "last adventure", to be honest. It's a marketing ploy until proven otherwise, as far as I'm concerned. In a universe with as many storytelling possibilities as Star Wars, it doesn't have to be as simple as a choice between, "shove the big three in a closet, let the younger generation shine", or "star big three, allow the children to grow into their forties and give them so little character development that the fandom still naturally thinks of them as the children". Similarly, there's no need to advance the timeline multiple years between each book. Take advantage of the whole pre-existing timeline, have different books take place at similar times... a well planned publishing schedule could easily accommodate developing the younger generation and prevent proverbially killing off the big three (except maybe Han ) Of course, having not read up to a certain point in the Bantam era, it's very possible I'm simply not disillusioned with the big three stories yet. I think the last story starring the big three I read was The Last One Standing, and before that Mindor... that left me with far from a bad taste in my mouth in regards to them.
I'm not a little confused by your argument. Pull me up if I've misunderstood, but you're saying you'd be happy to read a decent Ben Skywalker series absent major roles for his father's generation provided he had a supporting cast of his own age group, capable of sustaining their own plotlines, yes? The thing of the matter is, a half-decent series would swiftly create such a supporting cast. I mean, one went into Young Jedi Knights knowing only Jaina and Jacen, and they had received infinitely less character development - really, far less character - than Ben at this point. Everyone else was invented and developed over the course of the series. That you might be pessimistic regarding Del Rey's ability to put out a half-decent series, I readily appreciate, but I don't really see how a current dearth of Jaina, Ben or Allana's contemporaries (which incidentally is a position I'm not sure is really supported) necessarily precludes a Ben Skywalker (or other younger generation) series from either publication or success. That's rather on the book itself.
You're making a causation argument where there's barely even correlation. i hate to say it but i agree with Havac here. Now if you want to say that Yoda's strict, staunch view of attachment made him difficult to relate to or even admire, that i can understand. But Yoda was very active in the war effort, and also did a lot of teaching of younglings. He was always working on the infrastructure of the order, and let others like Qui Gon, Mace, and later Anakin and Kenobi do the heavy lifting. I think he might have been a little too focused on the Unifying force, and ignored much of the living force. This is why he was always at odds with Qui Gon, and why he was too unaware of the big threats out there. He leaned on a manifestation of the force that was partially blinded to him by the dark side. This was the Jedi's undoing. Luke however does well to preserve both the infrastructure and the outer threats. he embodies both the Unifying Force, and the Living force perfectly, thus he is the greatest jedi ever.
What I mean is, Del Rey has shown absolutely no inclination to give either younger generation a supporting cast- to the contrary, their inclination thus far has been to thoroughly wreck any such supporting cast Bantam cared to create, or failing that, creating their own just to kill off. I'm saying I'll have to wait and see if they can pull it off. But their preference seems to lean more towards "rapid-fire shock deaths" than "steadily building up a supporting cast of diverse and interesting characters".
We actually saw Ben with a bit of an entourage in Apocalypse. He worked really well with Valin and Jysella, who are admittidly a bit older than him. They're contemporaries in skill level though. There is also Seha, whom I thought was going to be set up as a sidekick/romantic interest. I'd love to see her and Ben team up like Jacen and Tenel Ka used to. Those were the days.
It's pretty funny, the way we discuss these things. 'We ask Luke to step back.' (I do not, BTW) . Which he did in Outcast. The result? Luke's fault for not teaching his Jedi better? The authors' who screwed it up once again? Those readers' who still want Big3 and obviously (?) are powerful a segment enough to keep Lucasbooks serving stories with them in the foreground? Who should we blame? Should we blame anyone? We've got what we got so far. Now, as far as we know, we'll get various, shorter stories - and with that a possible chance to see different characters in frontpositions. I don't think that's bad. I think it's pretty cool. I can get my Luke fix, others can get what they want, no one needs to yell at each other 'cos we could finally all be here
Actually, I've seen quite a few comments that there is a younger generation of Jedi, guess what? They've been barely used!
Of course there's a younger generation! 60 is the new 20, remember? There's a whole load of space age 20-somethings!!
I kinda wish Del Rey would pull some new authors in. Don't get me wrong . . . Denning is a fine writer and Star by Star was excellent. I just think that the prose is starting to get a little stale. I see that newer authors are getting into some other eras, but not so much in the post RotJ time frame.
