ST Daisy Ridley (Rey) in the ST

I've always felt the "Balance in the Force" idea was problematic, at least in the movies, where there just isn't that much time, or inclination, to have long discussions of underlying philosophy. Especially since, at times, there was the suggestion not just that the Universe contains/may always contain both Light and Darkness (and on a less literal level, goodness and evil), but that "bringing balance to the Force" was a good thing. What does "balance" mean? Of course, "balance" doesn't have to mean "50/50"; the proper proportion of two things could be 90/10 or any other ratio. Still, it almost sounded as if the suggestion was that there could be "too much good" in the Universe, and to me, at least, that always sounded really odd. "Careful now --- we can't have there being too much compassion,or love, or justice...that would put things out of balance!"

I have seen a few suggest, for example, that Anakin "brought balance to the Force" when he helped Sidious massacre the Jedi and establish the tyrannical Empire...because things has too long gone the other way and put balance out of whack. Yikes.

On the other hand, I do like the idea of almost sentient supernatural forces, of goodness and evil, trying to influence the physical universe by creating/sending agents... I think that Snoke's line about "the light rising to meet it" was powerful and almost poetic, and rather like Rey as the manifestation of that. Her unapologetic (to this point) optimism is refreshing.

 

The Force is like nature. A hurricane doesn't concern itself with whether the house it's toppling is the home of a saint or a criminal. In the same way the Force doesn't care if someone calls themselves a Sith or Jedi. They're just factions who practice use of the Force.

The Force in its natural state is an equal balance of light and dark. The Jedi of old understood this and attempted to live in harmony with the Force, balancing the light and dark sides within themselves. At some point this philosophy was discarded. Likely because of the rise of the Sith. The Jedi shut themselves off from any negative emotions. Anything that could be considered "dark side." All this did though was make them completely blind to the dark side and the Sith whose machinations were slowly but surely causing the Force to go out of balance. This situation reaches its boiling point in the PT. The dark side is ascendant while the light side of the Force is being overwhelmed. Per Mace Windu their ability to use the Force is even starting to wane. The Force has been thrown out of wack because the Jedi have failed to see what's right in front of their faces. Enter Anakin Skywalker. He's the Force's answer to this problem. The Jedi wrongly interpret the prophecy to mean that Anakin is destined to simply destroy the Sith and balance will be restored. They don't see that they also had a hand in causing the imbalance. So like I said it doesn't matter who is good and who is evil. The Force fixes the problem by wiping them both out. Balance is restored and the two side of the Force are once more in harmony with each other.

What the ST shows is that balance is fragile. The cycle that began with the rise of the Sith and ended with Anakin redeeming himself can start again. We see that cycle beginning once more with the rise of Kylo Ren from the ranks of Luke's Jedi. What Luke understands is that something needs to change to end the cycle and keep the Force balanced. He simply lacks the answer to how the cycle will end and in his despair he latches on to the idea that the Jedi must end. By the end of the film though he's come to realize that Rey is the answer. But she isn't the Chosen One. The Force doesn't need a Chosen One because it's still in balance. Rey is in fact a product of that balance. She's the counterbalance to Kylo Ren. She isn't beholden to some predetermined destiny that she must fulfill like Anakin though. She has a choice. She can continue the cycle or end it. How she ends it we will find out in Episode IX but I don't think it'll end with her killing Kylo Ren. I imagine there will be some understanding and harmony established between the two (and no I don't mean romance.) Will Kylo be redeemed? Well... no one is ever truly gone. Luke really is the wisest Jedi ever.

 

@Darth Chiznuk

I agree with everything you say except the idea the Jedi needed to be wiped out. While their philosophical flaws meant they were unable to effectively combat the Sith, they weren't a cause of the imbalance.

Also the Jedi regain a balanced philosophy with Qui-Gon's knowledge.

 

I see it like this. Yes the Jedi may have been saved had they followed Qui-Gon's more enlightened view of the Force... but they didn't. The Sith caused the imbalance but the Jedi as constituted represented an impediment to its restoration. They have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Force (just like the Sith do) and it's because of that that they have helped to weaken the light side. The two sides are fighting a pointless war and have for millennia. They're just going to keep wiping themselves out until the Force gets fed up and wipes them both out again. Then the cycle just starts over. Basically neither side needs to be wiped out but they both need to come to the understanding Luke has or it's just going to happen again and again.

 

I'd argue that while the Sith needed to be eliminated as the cause of imbalance, the Jedi only needed to be reformed. For instance Anakin could have brought balance in ROTS, but they would have run the risk of the 'Sith' eventually returning if they didn't reform. I believe Lucas confirmed Anakin could have brought balance in ROTS but chosen a different path.

 

I love SW, always have, but I feel that if one area of the movies needed a tweak, it's in explaining what GL was trying to say by "balance". I personally feel a lot of the criticisms of the Jedi are based not on what we see in the movies, but on interviews, commentaries, and the like. In the movies, the Jedi make mistakes, no doubt, but they are, IMHO, clearly a force (no pun intended) for good, and I have to say that I think the movies do a pretty bad job of suggesting the Dark Side is anything but evil, if that is what was in any way intended, with this talk of "balance".

I mean, in the movies, anyone shown embracing the Dark Side is, flatly, awful. Murdering kids, murdering entire planets of people at a shot, overthrowing democracy, betraying friends, betraying their apprentices/Masters the first chance they get at "something better", murdering their parents, torturing prisoners, talking about being powered-up by anger and hate... I mean its one long list of vile acts. Their allies are similarly awful.And not just that, the movies' visual cues make it pretty clear...these guys are bad news, right? The Sith aren't misunderstood, they aren't "less uptight" than the stoic Jedi... they are flat out bad, evil people.

Have said it before, it's a pretty strange world-view that argues "Don't eliminate TOO much injustice, TOO much suffering, TOO much cruelty, TOO much oppression - you'll put things out of balance! Make sure to leave just the right amount of Evil in the world!". ;^)

 

The dark side isn't just evil though; it's also death, fear and destruction. These are all essential for life to function.

TCW and TLJ make this pretty clear in my opinion.

 

How is she going to do this? She’s got less knowledge than Luke had and the ST has banged home that Luke screwed up. I guess along with all the other things she downloaded from Kylo - and really, no one sees even a tiny problem with this? - she’s downloaded the magic knowledge to reform the Jedi?

 

Are you forgetting the ancient Jedi texts?

Combined that with what she has learned so far, plus incoming encounters with force ghost Luke, I'd say she's all set to go.

 

The non “page turners” Luke couldn’t/didn’t read that contained the errors that brought down the Jedi the first time? Luke who, we are told over and over, screwed up?

Oh right, I forgot. Rey is magically the best that ever was so, no problem. Of course she’s already gotten the Falcon and Anakin’s saber just for showing up, of course she’ll start the perfect Jedi order. No doubt with “Ben Solo” who should be a great recruiting asset.

 

Luke explains it pretty well in TLJ. Dark siders aren't the dark side. They're just a faction that uses it to their benefit. Just like the Jedi aren't the light side. You remove both of them and you still have the Force. It's life that creates the Force and to quote Sirius Black "We've all got both light and dark inside us" so the dark side is just as much a natural part of the Force as the light side. What we've seen of Force users to this point though are the two extreme ends of the spectrum. There's a middle ground. We've seen it in a character like the Bendu. He isn't a light sider. He isn't a dark sider. He uses both sides equally. And yet he isn't out murdering children and blowing up planets. Of course he also isn't out there helping the Rebellion overthrow the Empire either. I think this conundrum is partly what Luke has been struggling with in his exile. How does he reconcile his philosophy (which I think is much closer to the Bendu) with the practical need of defeating Snoke and the First Order? He doesn't have the answer which I think only increases his despair.

Yes the Sith (or dark siders in general) are a malignant force that needs to be defeated but I'd bet that wasn't always so. The Jedi created their own worst enemies by simply wiping them out. Obi-Wan and Yoda continue to advocate this throughout the PT and into the OT. Someone who has fallen to the dark side is lost and must be defeated. Luke instinctively feels that this isn't right. It isn't yet some philosophy he's suddenly developed but just a feeling. He knows he can't kill his own father so redemption is the only way forward. Flash forward decades and we have Ben who is struggling with the dark side. Luke thinks he can help Ben overcome the dark side just like he helped his father. When he fails his faith in himself and his beliefs are severely shaken and it takes Rey and Yoda knocking some sense into him for him to finally remember himself. He returns to Leia in her greatest moment of doubt to remind her why she sent Han to Ben in the first place. That no one is ever really gone. That there's still some good in Ben and even though Luke can't save him doesn't mean he's irredeemable. I imagine this will be the final lesson Luke passes on to Rey herself. Rose actually nails it: "This is how we're going to win. Not by destroying what we hate but saving what we love." This is the ultimate arc of the Saga.

 

WTH are you talking about?

The ancient Jedi texts are about how the Jedi were before they expanded and became the para-military like Jedi that we see in the prequels. (When they lost their focus). The texts never brought down the Jedi. If anything, ignoring the original doctrine is what led them to the prequels, where they lost sight of being a "pure Jedi."

Luke did (just as Yoda brought up) pass on to Rey what he learned. Describing his, and the Jedi's past failures, so Rey will learn from their mistakes. (The greatest teacher is failure).

At the end of TLJ, Luke realized this and Rey realized she should have listened more to Luke's warnings.

So yes, Rey should be relatively good going forward on reinventing the Jedi path.
(Bearing all the peril, conflict and circumstances that Episode IX will obviously bring.)

 

I will never buy that there was something wrong with the Jedi wiping out the sith. This new force philosophy has to stand up to the Jedi presiding over peace for over a thousand generations. Palpatine was an aberration. He can't destroy the success of all that time of prosperity. No system we have in our world compares at the very least. That's why the philosophy of TLJ is DOA to me. I don't buy that the Jedi are terrible and the logic supporting the idea that the Jedi need to end is shallow and awful imo.

TLJ didn't describe the Jedi books as creating a purer version of the Jedi than existed at the time Sheev rose up and overthrew them. That would have been great if that kind of philosophy existed in the film, but it didn't. That would have been a more thoughtful, nuanced message than "the jedi suck, oops no they don't!" As is, all the books represent based on the film imo is Rey dreamed of the island apparently because she was meant to steal them and restart the Jedi Order after Luke failed to do so.

 

The books are from the time before the Jedi left Ahch-To and started working for the Republic.


So yes, it's subtle, along with Luke downing the time of the Jedi where Palpatine Rose in power.

But combined with Yoda's realization at the end of RotS, along with his talk to Luke in TLJ. This is the philosophical message.

A lot of fans are screaming at "how can JJ tie the sequel trilogy in with the other two trilogies and makes sense of this and yada yada yada."

When part of it is under their nose the whole time.


Also, Rey herself is not impervious. We've seen her mistakes in TFA and TLJ. One day she'll pass on what she's learned too and include her failures on how she went about things in the sequel trilogy.

Will she herself restart the Jedi? We don't know yet. But she'll definitely be the one to pass on the knowledge. Whether its after she restarts the Jedi herself or she eventually teaches the person who restarts the Jedi, or whoever they pass the baton to.

Just as Luke did. That's the philosophical message.

 

This was actually a response to someone else entirely, including their quotes and their specific comments on Kylo and Rey, that I produced a month ago and never posted because it wasn't finished. I'm chopping it up right now for the relevant points, but don't be surprised if some of it lacks context or is unrelated (like Rey).

So, Chiznuk, it's not really a response to you.

This also rejects the entire idea of balancing light and dark. It rejects dark (destruction/hate), entirely in favor of light (saving/love).

I reject the idea of balancing light and dark within yourself. Darkness shouldn't be embraced or indulged. It must be mastered, conquered, controlled. Using the dark side is always bad, it's giving legitimacy to the darkest impulses inside you. I mean, just say it. Using the dark side.

Look at Rey and the nonsense they're pitching as Prime Jedi balance. Rey is no role model, she whacked Luke in the back of the head with a potentially deadly weapon. She could have easily killed him or permanently damaged his brain. If this is part of the ST's idea of "balance", I reject it completely. That's not balanced, healthy, or acceptable behavior. If this is "balanced" Rey, it's going to (or should) end in tragedy. Some day, she will kill someone she didn't mean to. Her relationships will be toxic, full of anger and violence. Tapping into fury and rage will (or should) catch up to her, regardless of what ends she uses it for. This is Star Wars 101. We see Luke get ragepissed, tapping into the dark side, after Vader threatens his sister. This is unequivocally bad and it nearly ends in him suffering his father's fate. Only by understanding that he was following his father's footsteps was he able to avoid it by rejecting it. We saw Obi-Wan use his rage against Darth Maul in TPM for a moment, it makes him reckless, and he's knocked off balance. Only by regaining his calm does he prevail. We saw what happened with Anakin and anger.

Of course it's very, very difficult (but not impossible) to completely control/master one's dark side, but the Jedi exist in this story to do so. The religions the Force/Jedi were based on actually do preach anger and fear as unhealthy poisons that lead one astray.

Not distinguishing between light and dark is not a good, healthy thing. It's just a weird ignorance of reality that no one actually possesses. There is not a single person in existence that doesn't distinguish between light and dark.

Using the dark side is dangerous and corrupting. Embracing the dark side is completely insane, it's what Sith Lords do. Letting yourself be fueled by anger, fear, hatred, jealousy and greed will inevitably lead to a toxic character and disastrous results. Consume you it will, even though it is possible to change and turn away from it.

The movie is called The Last Jedi, but Luke states he will not be the last Jedi. Pretty sure that means Rey will be a Jedi, and indeed she steals the Jedi texts. For Rey to actually be a Jedi...she needs to be an actual Jedi. That means she can't just embrace, indulge, play around with, or go straight to the dark side. If Rey embraces the dark and uses Force lightning, then she's simply not a Jedi at all. She's something else.

I reject the idea of "balance" involving casually embracing/indulging the dark side, I reject the idea of Rey being anyone to imitate. The idea that Rey embraces the dark (rage and all) yet somehow simply isn't affected by it makes her a completely inhuman character.

You don't just accept or embrace the shadow. You acknowledge and master it. Control it. The "acceptance" part is admitting that it is there, not just being totally cool with it and using the dark side casually the way Rey does.

In TCW, Yoda is confronted by his dark side and ultimately masters it. He doesn't start using the dark side afterward.

Anakin accepts the dark side and it takes over.

Use of the dark side as a good thing is anti-Star Wars.

 

A lot of things are under our noses by this logic. If it’s not in the film, it’s not in the film. JJ can do basically whatever he wants at this point, including mostly ignore TLJ. Based on how TLJ ignored/mocked his film, I think he has good reason to do exactly that. If he incorporates the philosophy that the Jedi at the time Sheev rose had lost sight of their true purpose, that would be a welcome way to retcon something good into the philosophy of TLJ for me.

 

Huh?

George Lucas already did that at the end of RotS.

 

I don’t mean retcon for the saga. I mean retcon the message of TLJ.

 

@AhsokaSolo. That WAS one of the messages of TLJ. There's no need to retcon anything.


Please don't tell me you believe the message is "let the past die. Kill it if you have to" by Kylo Ren.

He's the antagonist, so of course he'll say the wrong message.

That's like in The Little Mermaid, Ursula telling Ariel that "what girl needs a voice, when all a good girl needs to get the man she wants is a nice body."

 

My entire point was no it's not. You have to head canon it into the film.

 

I totally disagree with you then.

It's almost too blatant in Yoda's speech to Luke."

 

It's definitely not "too blatant" in that speech given that it's not in the speech at all. Moreover, there is nothing wrong with a theme being "blatant" so it can't be "too" blatant. If TLJ was trying to say that the books Luke found super boring represented a purer version of the Jedi, it should have just said so.

 

OT Luke and Qui Gon 'represent' a purer version of the Jedi. ROTS Obi-Wan and TLJ Luke (until Crait) represent a more debased version.

As for the books...all thats said is 'wisdom they have'. Those boring pages seem to be pretty neutral and, as such, interpretable. Perhaps they are little more than a beginners guide. Something a debased (and not very patient as a reader) Jedi Knight could use to justify not putting his ass in gear; or something a purer ('true') Jedi could use, in a more utilitarian fashion, to learn 'wisdom'

So those books are fine, as long as you are a true/purer Jedi. Since they were left behind in the island, perhaps the ones who wrote them looked past them a long time ago.

One cease to be a purer jedi by saying: 'only a sith speaks in absolutes', which is an absolute, and 'I will do what I must', which is a version of 'I will kill you'. Once you do that, wiping the Sith is only 'natural' -in a sithesque kind of way.
A purer jedi would have avoided that faction, the sith, and that logic (the logic of war) to emerge in the first place. Inner balance. The means justifying the ends, and all that.

Snoke to Rey: 'you have the spirit of a true jedi. And because of that you must die'

She is -or is on the path to become- a purer kind of jedi, so those books could be useful as a textbook in the future.