Dark Side Kyle Katarn/w Power of Valley vs. Luke

>>>Vader is nearly all metal, and he glided down gracefully and slowly, because of the force. If threepio tried that he would have fell flat on his face and fell like a rock.<<<

And I guess when Vader gets kicked down the stairs in ROTJ and does that whacked out tumble, he's flying aswell. Do you also have problems with sound in space? Or Han and crew hanging around the vacum of space with just face masks (the worms mouth was always open and it was a straight tunnel to where they landed). How about Jar Jar's zero-g dive into the lake and lets not forget the physics on Obi Wans jump from the melting pit, was he flying to?

-----signature-----
"Rabid Balding Ewok, you make me sick.
If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."


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No, there's no need for a purist gaming forum. We just need to be respectful of one another's beliefs, just like religion in real life.

I don't believe that there was a clone of the Emperor that his "essence" jumped into. And I don't like being told that I'm wrong. How can I be wrong OR right? It's all made up fiction. If I want to believe that, let me. If I want to believe that the Emperor was so allergic to cheese that he'd choke and die if he ate it, let me (I'm being hypothetical, I am not directing an attack towards you).

But I don't mind if other people want to think that. I just want people to treat me and my ideas the same I treat them. Just like in real life, I don't like Bible Thumpers who have cotton shoved in their ears (and Bib follows that pattern to a T).


I don't bother with Bib too much because he seems to have this uncanny knack of not listening to anybody. I accept that EU is a possible answer. I was happy as anyone else when I learned that the name "Coruscant" made it into the films. I don't reject EU answers. I reject the fact that people feel the need to barrel down on me telling me "This is how it is, whether you like it or not!" That is how Bib is. He won't allow anyone to speculate on anything. He cannot refrain from entering a conversation where someone says "Well, the EU says this but..."

That, I don't like. It takes a little away my enjoyment of the Star Wars universe.

Edit: Anyway, I'm done for now. Hopefully I made sense and you understand where I am coming from. Gonna be gone for a few days (Moab, mountain biker's Mecca, here I come!) so I may be unusually silent for a while.

-Jomero

 

HOW DARE YOU ALL HAVE A FLAME WAR WITHOUT ME?! I'm very angry at you people!

Now is this going to stop, or am I going to have to get banned flaming you all into submission?

 

Don't think this was a flame war. It was more a luke-warm war. =]

-Jomero

 

Well I must say, I didn't bother reading it...

 

Rabid_Balding_Ewok...
Silly, Vader flew in the Death Star trench in ANH.

 

Well, EU is the only official answer. But there is always room for speculative unofficial answers, and people to believe such speculation.

But on side topic, "This sux, That's an EU answer so it doesn't count, and the like", are not constructive to topics that take place in an EU forum, as well not constructive to a debate that involved EU related characters or situations. If people don't like the EU, or EU stories then really what business is there for them being a EU VS. Topic, because said "sux" comments do nothing but break down the topic? As someone said above it makes the thread more pointless than pointless. Besides even in the movie forums those comments are against policy because they take topics off course.


"And I guess when Vader gets kicked down the stairs in ROTJ and does that whacked out tumble, he's flying aswell."

The EU said he used the force yes, and possibly the novelization as well.

"Do you also have problems with sound in space?"

The EU explains they have systems that simulate sounds as audio feedback to pilots and such.

"Or Han and crew hanging around the vacum of space with just face masks (the worms mouth was always open and it was a straight tunnel to where they landed)."

According to the EU shields can be extended out to make a pocket that is safe to walk around in or travel in.

"How about Jar Jar's zero-g dive into the lake"

Ohhh, I've see frogs that jump about as effortlessly into ponds.

"and lets not forget the physics on Obi Wans jump from the melting pit, was he flying to?"

Twas the force, even the novel talks about that fact as I recall.

 

>>>Silly, Vader flew in the Death Star trench in ANH.<<<

That could have been anybody in the Vader suit.

>>>I don't know I see frogs that jump about as effortlessly by ponds.<<<

Can frogs hang in the air aswell? Maybe he was flying?

>>>Not according to policy of gamer which came out a month after the online article. In it everything in the EU is canon, on the same level books/novels/games/comics, etc all on the same level by lfl policy.<<<

So that means that there are no bathrooms or barreks in Star Wars. If games are canon then that means that every single imperial millitary installation lacks any kind of place for the troops to rest or relieve themselves. It also means it's a fact that power ups are scattered throughout the Star Wars universe for anyone to pick up. It means Anakin Skywalker participates in all kinds of pod races on various planets after his podrace in TPM and before he leaves with Qui Gon. Before a big battle the empire and republic have to farm crystals and chop down wood to fight. It also means that Boba Fett participated in a tournement hosted by Jabba the Hutt on the second Death Star.

If games were meant to be taken seriously as part of Star Wars mythos why are there so many contradictions. Anyone who accepts video games as canon has to accept Racer, Super Bombad Racing, Masters Of Teras kasi, Galactic Battelgrounds, Yodas Aventure, Demolition as fact. You can't pick and choose they all have to be canon or none at all.

-----signature-----
"Rabid Balding Ewok, you make me sick.
If there was an enemies list, you'd be on mine."


:::*::(^^) :(^^) :::::::
::::::/::::^^:::::\ ::*::
:::::/###-^^-##I :::::
: *:.l##/(*)# (*)\\:::::
:::/##(###.00#)#I ::::
::(___/#*#(XXX)/__) ::
::/000{{{{www}}}}\:: Ewoks Will Eat You!

 

"So that means that there are no bathrooms or barreks in Star Wars."

EU calls bathrooms refreshers. EU talks about alot of barracks.


"If games are canon then that means that every single imperial millitary installation lacks any kind of place for the troops to rest or relieve themselves."

EU talks about refreshers all the time. There was a refresher in dark forces, .

"It also means it's a fact that power ups are scattered throughout the Star Wars universe for anyone to pick up."

That itself is gameplay feature and not a technical bit of continuity. LFL says gameplay features such as powerups are just for gameplay aspect of the game, but not part of the direct continuity.

"It means Anakin Skywalker participates in all kinds of pod races on various planets after his podrace in TPM and before he leaves with Qui Gon."

Actually the EU explanation is that the other 2 main characters you start out were the actual ones to be in the race.

"Before a big battle the empire and republic have to farm crystals and chop down wood to fight."

Nova Crystals are actually from Corporate Sector Sourcebook, which it explains that it is a form of currency.

As for farming, that's done in alot of planets. AS for chopping down wood, it's used as buidling materials on many worlds. As for mining ore, well the EU talks about that as well.

"It also means that Boba Fett participated in a tournement hosted by Jabba the Hutt on the second Death Star."

If you refer to the the game star wars demolition. The official word on that is the story and the backhistory is part of the canon. The death star itself was actually just a bonus level which they say is appocryphal part of the game. The literal story for the game is that it all the events in it took place on Tatooine. The levels themselves are just to give variety for the gamer.

similer note the lucas learning title known as bombad racing, is said to be an appocryphal infinnties title, by them. So it is one of the only games that LFL doesn't take seriously because it was never meant to be serious.

"If games were meant to be taken seriously as part of Star Wars mythos why are there so many contradictions."

There aren't unless you go beyond gameplay ignoring the story and start taking game play features far to seriously. But in the case of some gameplay features they are based on previous established continuity so in that case of those then they are just as valid as any previous source.

"Anyone who accepts video games as canon has to accept Racer"

Like I said the story in it revolves around the 2 starting drivers other than anakin, according to lfl's declared information for the game. The game has influenced continuity as well in the comics ongoing series.



"Super Bombad Racing"

Lucasarts declared it appocryphal innfinities in there official releases. So by lfl's own choice it is not part of continuity.

"Masters Of Teras kasi"

part of continuity and was refrenced in star wars gamer #5. We learn that arden lyn started the game to give luke a chance at suvival because she was not loyal to palpatine or vader.

"Galactic Battelgrounds"

This one has already been declared to be part of continuity and has refrences made to it already on HNN for the wookie campaign. It also has EU databanks in the game.


"Yodas Aventure"

This is a game that LFL declared as being part of alternate universe in a few sources. So LFL's stance on the matter is the valid stance on the matter.

"Demolition"

Already refrenced in star wars gamer magazine and given EU explanations in other sources.


"as fact. You can't pick and choose they all have to be canon or none at all."

I don't pick and choose I only accept what LFL's official word on the matter is.

Like I said I only accept what lfl has declared as being part of continuity, and they are very careful to mark things as such.

"You can't pick and choose they all have to be canon or none at all."

There is not a dichotomy as you seem to want to imply. Your thought is false dichotom

 

But if lfl decides to link to an easter egg as being part of continuity. Then that is their official stance on the matter, and who am I to complain.

You know what that means don't you?

 

Hello, friends.

 

Y'know Val, I'm as big a fan of EU as most. If it fits in continuity, then it's fine by me. But you can't change the minds of people who don't agree and don't want to agree, no matter HOW MUCH you argue it, as has been proven time and time again.

RBE was making extreme points to emphasize how silly this argument has gotten, and there you go trying to actually rationalise an argument against them. Which proves that this argument is pedantic and ultimately useless.

Now, you're a respected member in Lit, where such knowledge and argumentative skills are more useful, but in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. This is the Games forum, to which you have often contributed usefully. I personally held you in high stead.

Do be a pal and try to save some dignity.

 

CANONISE THE FORCE BOAT!

 

Well this is an EU topic in an EU board, perhaps it should be moved to lit? This place should be renamed to just games, rather than expanded universe games.

Jedi bib, the moment they link to the force boat easter egg, as being part of the continuity the Force Boat will live, .

 

You watch, Anakin and Obi-Wan are going to fly a force-propelled boat around that water planet in Ep2.

 

Well I must say, I didn't bother reading it...

[monty burns]'Who is that fellow, I like the cut of his jib.' [/monty burns]

 

Jedi Bib, I'm looking forward to that, , . I can just see the movie goers chanting in the aisle, "Force Boat, Force Boat, Force Boat, .

 

Valiento just give it up. Not everyone is going to agree with you no matter how much you talk or try argue with them. Just accept that and move on. I don't accept everything in EU. An example would be the NJO. I don't care if its official or unofficial it never happened in my mind. Nor do I accepted, nor will I ever accepted it or consider it apart of the SWEU. It doesn't matter what LFL says or what you tell me. Thats my feeling on the subject and no matter arguing or talking from anyone will make me feel different. The same type of logic is for games. Not everyone looks to Star Wars as some holy object. They like to read to be entertained and play the games to have fun. Some people just don't care about the things you do.

Everyone believes something different and everyone isn't going to change their opinion just because you tell them they are wrong or through information in their face. Its all fiction as in made up. Relax.

If the novels were written by GL himself you wouldn't have these problems but he didn't so there will always be people that disagree.

Sooner you accept that the better you'll be off.

Edit: My opinion on things change from time to time very fast. If say something about something and I say something different later thats the reason why.

jp-30: Nice Sig

 

Wow, this thread is simply amazing. I was going to write a really good response, but then I read jp's sig.

 

Yeah, JP has it right. I quote his sig all over.

 

I was really hoping to keep out of this thread, but;

"that was gamma base on that unnamed ice planet."

It was an unamed ice planet, with a rebel base. According to the EU the rebels has several rebel bases before ANH, this said ice planet was just another of their bases.


From the back of the Rebel Assault box;

Take control of four Star Wars vehicles in a variety of challenging piloting, targeting and combat scenarios in the first Lucasarts game made exclusively for CD-Rom. After honing flight and combat skills, defent Tatooine against Imperial attack, challenge the menacing walkers on the frigid ice planet of Hoth, and combat the Empire in a series of deepspace battles.

 

Then the EU writers changed the plot, later on in a magazine article in one of the official magazines. I've also noticed as I remember that in the game itself it's gamma base that's all it's called. Nothing else, no term hoth spoken up, nothing. All LFL is guilty of is changing is chaning ideas to make it better fit into continuity.

Just like they worked around the backhistory of the sith in the TPM novel so as to save the TOTJ era stuff. So that it can show up again in the upcoming knights of the old republic game.

I like how people disagree with lucas, since he authorizes everything. I know there are alot of people that don't accept The phantom menace as part of continuity because to them the story is inferior to that of the classic trilogy. Yep, every one has the right to ignore lucas. That's there prerogative.

Lucas wrote the story for star tours, ewok movies, and was massivly involved with the ewok cartoons, they are part of his movie studios they too are just as valid as the movies themselves and more absolute by lfl's standards because they were directly made and filmed material from lucas' own studios. But i'm sure there are alot of people that don't like them.

I know people that hate ROTJ, and only watch ANH and ESB, because they believe them to be superior(they despise the ewoks as well). Yep that's up to them too. I say it's hypocritical to tell someone mentioning something in an EU debate is invalid as part of debate and not putting up a true argument but just telling them you are talking about EU your thoughts are wrong. If you want to debate, debate the issues. Then it's my right to rebuttal. But to say my right to rebuttal is invalid is just as hypocritical as if bib was in here not giving you a right to rebuttal. It makes no sense.

You have really sidetracked the purpose of this thread just to get into straw man arguements and red herrings about nature of topics that have nothing to do with this thread. What is your point?

I think JP's sig says it best. It's all fiction. So in a real debate is to discuss all the things that can influence said debate topic. Not the issue on what is more valid than any other. If discussing topics about kyle katarn is invalid then why even create a topic about it? Hypocritical to be sure.

Everyone in this thread has completly sidtracked the issue, and ignored the rules of debate just to go on crusade against alternate topics. Why I ask? If people don't want to discuss the topic at hand and just want to go onto other topics hijacking this thread, perhaps this thread has gone past it's welcome and should be closed so as to stop the offtopic comments.

 

Excepting movies and EU novels are two different things. The movies are written by GL himself, the novels aren't. Sure you might not like the movies but you know they are there and are apart of the story.

Did Lucas say he even reads the novels? I just know that he agrees to the basic outline of the novels and if he likes them they are ago. Does he actually know how his characters are being portaryed(mainly NJO wise and other books). If he did and actually read the novels I don't think he would considered them canon. He just might slap an infinites label on them and your canon goes right out the window. You never know. Just a thought.

 

According to the TPM DVD he goes over the scripts for the games. As for NJO, according to RAS, lucas was on the panel for the creation of the series, he was the one who handed out a list of the the characters that could be killed. Chewbacca was one he put on that list, and check marked. So Lucas is directly responsible for chewbacca's death.

Lucas was directly behind alot of the story in Splinter of the mind's eye, and gave it strong words in the forward. while offhandely giving the rest of the literary EU strong words as well. It was said that lucas enjoys occasional comic series. He was said by comic company employee that one year he enjoyed dark forces so much that he gave out a copy for every employee. Veitch, Anderson, and others,in interviews have said that he had direct talks with lucas where they were given many of the ideas in the story, and told what couldn't be done, the list like this went on and on.

But as I've pointed out these are the kind of posts that went away from the whole topic of this thread. Your post was the exact kind of post that hijacked the original topic.

 

The original topic is as dumb as all the "vs" topics that keep me out of lit. Keep going with this. I want to see how far it goes. Val, your dignity and stead just went right out the window.