Darth Caedus or Jacen Solo. Which Character Would Have Been More Appealing?

Interesting question. I disagree, to an extent - I felt that for much of the series, Jacen was too weak, but at the end, something changed:

Caedus, as characterized in Invincible, had finally had his Campbellian moment, and had in so doing acquired the potential for awesomeness.

I'm not sure who "Jacen Solo" could have been after "Legacy of the Force" (in my view, his defining empathy was always painfully abstract ), but Invincible!Caedus as a recurring villain would have been awesome - it would have been more fun if he'd won...

EDIT: that said, I'd have liked it even better if they used him as a means to bring Anakin Solo back.

Uhh... where?

Traitor is the only book where IMHO Jacen functions as a hero, and that's only because he's essentially alone...

You define "Amazing Hero" as "ruthlessly killing a mentally-ill cripple and getting a forsgasm out of it"...?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I think because they chose to have Mara target Jacen as an assassin, they supplied him with a reason to kill her, although I agree it wasn't a "good" reason. Although Mara's reason for killing him wasn't "good" either in the same sense. I do not see Luke and Ben's ability to forgive being a decisive factor. So I don't think killing family made Jacen's death a necessity in that instance, any more than Mara killing him would have made her death a necessity after the fact. I don't understand why Jacen had to be dead at the end of Invincible - either the redemption or full on evil Sith eventualities could have worked within the framework of the story arc and either would have made for a better tale in my view. I was never really into Jacen as a character, but I think if nothing else, LOTF proved that he could be given a complex and interesting portrayal that, light or dark, could have evolved into an interesting character and a boost for the EU in the wake of that series.

 

You don't?

Either way, the point about the Face-Heel turn stands. Jacen wasn't an evildoer at the end of the NJO. You don't turn someone into a bad guy unless you see some sort of dramatic/thematic potential in them becoming one.

 

No. I feel that it was a waste of time and trees to even bother if they were going to do a half-pants job. And thanks for proving my entire point: Denning, Allston and Traviss tried to make him credible; they failed. And, as the old saying goes, death is the only way out.

Again, proving my point. The authors had plenty of time to make him so, and utterly failed.

Redemption wouldn't have worked. By this point, not only was the entire Solo-Skywalker family against him, but a good majority of the galaxy, as well. If not anyone from the Skywalker or Solo families, someone was going to try and end him. Full on evil Sith doesn't work, either, as again, the authors never seemed interested in doing that, even though they had plenty of time to set it up.

Jacen wasn't evil, but he was an arrogant jerk. Or are you forgetting that the whole Killik-Chiss thing was started because he decided it was for the best? And again, good intentions for potential bad guy-ness mean little if the authors follow up on it. And, once again, they largely didn't.

 

No, but I think you're forgetting that DNT was written with Jacen's dark turn in LotF already in mind.

Regardless, you said that none of the LotF authors saw any potential in Caedus as a villain, which simply can't be true. Denning, at the very least, must have... or else we wouldn't have had DNT and LotF at all. You've also completely changed your viewpoint. You've gone from 'I saw no potential' to "the potential wasn't realised by the authors", which is the opinion you were originally objecting to.

Though that's fitting for a thread about Caedus' and LotF, I suppose.

 

Which makes me wonder what else was written with Jacen's dark turn in mind. If you think about it, the seeds were sown as far back as the early NJO.

First off, Denning can say all he wants that he saw potential as Jacen being evil, but unless the work back's up his word, it doesn't work. While he might have tried, Allston and (especially) Traviss didn't (see Revelation for all the proof you need about that), and thus is the realization of Jacen as evil comes off flat.

Second, I saw no potential in Jacen as evil, because, despite whatever intentions Denning, Allson and Traviss had, they couldn't make him a credible one in my eyes.

 

Most people would agree that a hero needs a substantially higher body count, plus maybe a corny Lord of the Rings quote.

But there are more rules: Heroes don't throw old wrinkled men down reactor shafts, for example. Instead, they confuse other people with a promise of family love that they will never have to fulfil and then stand by as they throw the wrinkled old men down reactor shafts.

 

More than that though, these things tend to get a little re-written in analysis. Jacen merely provoked what was already a bedded situation and his reason for doing so - because the Gorog were trying to kill his daughter - and the Gorog would never die out as long as the Killik existed was actually his reasoning. Luke, finding out the truth (except about Allana - but there were other threats by the Gorog so that didn't matter) agreed that the Gorog had to go and Raynar too in one form or another in order for the situation to normalize. Jacen actually conceded to Luke's plan in the end. Wiping out the Killiks is perhaps a dark idea per se, but then so is wiping out the Gorog which was the ultimate plan accepted by all. Jacen wasn't aware of some of the facts Luke had at first though, so that also played into it as well.

But I think attempts to show Jacen as leaning toward darkness failed in light of how the storyline progressed; even his no Dark Side stuff was something Luke only realized was possibly leading the Jedi astray during DN. They also did the Ta'a Chume brain damage stuff which I think was more to the question - although it was really hard to see the act as particularly dark because it was Ta'a Chume after all, not exactly an individual who had ever shown a shred of lightness throughout her dance through the EU and was planning to kill and had attempted to kill Allana - and didn't change her mind when caught. And the mind wiping of Ben was similarly lacking in impact because if Jacen had done it for the reason he gave to Mara and Luke (cause Ben anguish), it was within acceptable boundaries, even if they wanted to be told. It was a lie, so that seemed wrongful, but the real reason was even more acceptable in truth because it would get Allana killed - so I was hard pressed to see the real darkness association there except for 'lying' which...meh. So there was some indication - especially the Chume incident, but not enough to sell me on the idea.

So I think that the set up for darkening Jacen was pretty weak in DN and didn't support his sudden real show of darkness in Betrayal upon killing an innocent. And I agree that subsequently, he never achieved a convincing fall. It is that mediocracy that killed the whole attempt, which is why it would have been better to go for redemption or bonafide Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Nope. Author interviews: there is no uber plot between DNT and LotF, much less NJO and LotF. DNT did start a setup for a dark Jacen though because that was decided upon for *unknown* reasons sometime after NJO.

 

Grey:

I'd disagree that the NJO was written with "after this, we'll make Jacen go dark" in mind. Disagree completely. You can twist things to suit Jacen later going dark in hindsight, though, sure. DNT, however, was actually written when the basic idea of "Jacen should go bad" was already decided upon. Maybe the NJO was too, but we don't know that and it doesn't seem that way.

Denning doesn't have to say anything. The fact that he pitched the idea of Jacen going evil in the first place proves that he saw potential in the character as a villain, or else he wouldn't have pitched the idea. It's that simple.

I absolutely agree that the realisation of Jacen as a bad guy left a lot to be desired but, again, that's a point most of us have been agreeing on from the start of this thread....

So because they were unable to make him a credible villain, Jacen-as-evil would have failed each and every time anyone tried? He literally had no potential to be a cool badass badguy? I can't stop you thinking that, but it strikes me as mighty weird.

Still, all I objected to was your specific statement that none of the authors of LotF saw any potential in Jacen as a villain, which - again - makes no sense. You can't get around that, no matter how much you might try to obfuscate the issue. Sorry. Maybe Allston and Traviss didn't, but Denning must have done -- at least at one point.

 

Destroying someone's brain with the force is not dark to you?

say all you will about Ta'a Chume, but that was a dark act, no question about it

I think that was actually a decent set-up to Jacen in LotF where he doesnt really get how wrong his morals have become
He is already in his ends justify the means mindset

While in DN it was only done for mildly bad reasons, aka he kills only bad guys, it shows the beginning of that mindset and how it slowly erodes someone until they can justify killing anyone in their family

 

But what kind of potential did he see? "Aw man, I hate this boring pacifist Jacen. Which storyline has the most potential of getting him killed...?"

 

Touché.

 

While that might be true, there's enough evidence to suggest it. We all know that Anakin was supposed to be the big hero in the NJ, and that Jacen was supposed to die in Star By Star, and the reason it was switched was because Lucas Books thinks those who read their stuff are the biggest drooling idiots in the world. (Apparently, they think that we're dumb enough to confused Anakin Solo with Anakin Skywalker, despite the fact that they lived generations apart and have different last names.) At the time, it was a dumb justification of an otherwise pointless situation. Obviously, given what happened in the decade since, one has to wonder...

Pitching an idea is one thing. Making it work is another. Fact is, neither he, nor Allston, nor Traviss managed to do it. (Though in her case, that's not surprising. Anyone who isn't either one of her OC's or a Mando should expect to get the shaft when it comes to characterization.)

He might have had potential to be a badass, super-duper evil guy. But in the hands of those who did it...no, siree, Bob. No chance in hell.

That's fine. You can disagree with me if you want. All I'm saying that, for all the intentions Denning had to make Jacen cool evil, it didn't work. Not in Allston's hands. Not (in the greatest non-surprise ever) in Traviss'. And, sadly, not in his.

 

Keep reading...I actually did say it was the exception among the other indicators in having dark potential.

I hope there was more to it than that...

 

Ok, i was just referring to the bolded part below

I would say it has more than dark potential
It is a dark act, no question about it

I liken it to Anakin Skywalker slaughtering the Sand People in AotC
It was a dark act, but not what sent him over the edge as after that, he was a powerful light Jedi again
As was Jacen, in helping end the DN crisis

 

I don't think killing Ta'Chume in those circumstances screams "dark" as much as slaughtering an entire tribe of people-woman and children included-out of pure revenge does. Its "dark", but its not that "dark". And thats pretty much the darkest thing he does, and it just doesn't establish Jacen as someone who is particularly dark that well.

 

I think its more the way he killed her that makes it definitely "dark"
I agree, its not as obvious and in your face as killing an entire tribe of people, women and children

But it was in revenge for her trying to kill his daughter

It's cold blooded murder
That's pretty dark
I dont know what you consider "dark" vs "not that dark"


I dont think it was supposed to establish him as dark though
He hadnt fallen completely at that point, it was more a foreshadowing of things to come
Thats the comparison to Anakin in AotC
It foreshadowed the line he was on, and would someday cross

 

It wasn't cold blooded murder - Ta'a Chume didn't die. It was cold blooded brain botching tho... It was dark - like when Kyp took the memories from Qwi. But what I meant by it being hard to see as dark - was from a personal viewpoint because she was an established horrible individual that I don't recall ever hearing one good thing about - and lots of evil deeds. However, in terms of Star Wars, I think it falls on the dark side of the line.

 

If anything, it was an act that lead Jacen down the "Dark Path" that much is clear because it wasn't something a Jedi would do, plain and simple IMO. He had to start somewhere, we can argue that it was during NJO, but this instance might be it.