Darth Vader is actually stronger after he gets the armor. Here's why.

This is when it gets touchy.

I don't feel that the cybernetics give him and advantage over force users natural limbs because as you said the force runing through those natural limbs would obviously be more useful to a force user.

In the Star Wars universe, cybernetics are used to combat force sensitive beings. I.E. General Grievous. He was made of cybernetics to enhance his speed and strength in order to combat the Jedi because he wasn't force sensitive. This worked very well seeing that GG was feared by the Jedi and known as a great Jedi kller.

With Vader, he is force sensitive. And with his cybernetics he can manipulate them with the force even though he doesn't have the force running through them. So although the loss of limbs may curb his force potential, his cybernetics almost make up for his loss of force potential.

With all the evidence of GG being a great enemy against force users due to his cybernetics, you have to look at Vader as General Grievous with Force powers. A very dangerous opponent indeed.

Even if the cybernetics mean a loss in force potential(which I still have a hard time swallowing), someone with Vader's unmatched potential means his lost potential isn't as much of a loss because he has that much more potential to give than anyone else.

So in closing. Suited Vader may not be the invincible demi-god of the force he "might" have been had he not been injured, but with his injuries he is still as powerful in the force as anyone plus he has all the advantages of cybernetic limbs. On top of the durability, strength, and speed advantages of the cybernetics, he can also manipulate them with the force to further enhance them. And remeber this is Anakin we are talking about. With his remarkable ability to fix and upgrade mechanical things, there isn't a better person suited to have cybernetic appendages.

General Grievous + potent Force power = Darth Vader. A frightening enemy to say the least for even the most powerful force users.

 

I don't really agree that the suit helped Vader. He was physically stronger, but unsuited Darth Vader would have been so powerful in the force no one in the galaxy could have touched him. In the Dark Lord novel Vader is severly hindered by the suit and clearly uncomfortable in it. I hardly think that the suit would be an upgrade in it a duel, or that Vader himself would think the suit an advantage. But apprently somewhere between the Dark Lord novel and the OT Vader got pretty comfortable in the thing. But of course he would have taken his old body back.

 

Well, by the end of the Dark Lord novel it states that Vader had become very used to the suit and that it felt like little more than a costume to him.

Obviously he would rather have his old body back. I don't know anyone who would say they would rather have thier arms and legs chopped off.

I'm saying that in Star Wars, cybernetics are used as an upgrade for people who aren't force sensitive. and they do a very good job at leveling the playing field between force sensitive and non-force sensitive beings. So even though Vader lost some force potential, he had so much force potential to begin with that just his torso and head contain more force potential than most other force users.

Cybernetics in the Star Wars universe are extremely advanced. There is deffinately more adavntages to having them then there are disadavantages. In fact the only disadvantage is in force users apparently because they lose force potential(which doesn't make much sense to me but Mr. Lucas says so, so I guess thats what we have to go with.) But even for force users, the advantage of durability with cybernetics is undenyable. They allow someone to take blaster shots, lightsaber strikes, or even lose the limb completely and still be able to fight while sentient beings would be crippled by this.

Cybernetics are also supposed to enhance your physical strength and give you computer like reflexes. When you couple that with Vader's force enhanced ability of foresight shouldn't that make his reflexes even that much better like it did with Grievous?

Force users can manipulate their cybernetics exactly the way that they would manipulate their natural limbs. The force runs through everything. Thats why GL's quote of force sensitive beings losing force power when they get cybernetics is ridiculous to me and I find it hard to swallow. Especially when he just said that to justify why the duels in the OT are inferior to the ones in the PT.

Even in the Dark Lord novel it says that Vader's problems are more psychological than physical, and that he still has the imense power in him but it is in hibernation(for lack of a better term) because of the trauma he has been through. And one of the main plot points of the novel is Sidious trying to awaken that power even at the demise of Sidious himself. Which says to me that Vader still has the power to overthrow Sidious once hes learned everything about the darkside that Sidious can teach him.

 

General Grievous + potent Force power = Darth Vader. A frightening enemy to say the least for even the most powerful force users.[/quote]

I agree with this part and your post is explained. I thought your argument was that Vader was more powerful after the cybernetic enhancement .

 

Maybe Vader's armour, or at least his shoulder/torso armour is made of cortosis...you know, that stuff that can deflect lightsabers...it's the right color...plus he would be physically stronger too...after all, all of his limbs are cybernetic...

 

I would like to point out some differences between Grievous and Vader.

Grievous was entirely cybernetic, he was a full-blown cyborg. Vader was not, he had prosthetic limbs grafted onto his own flesh. The grafts would likely be weaker, by comparison. Additionally, all that lightning speed that Grievous displayed was never emulated by Vader. His brain still had to send signals through his flesh, then to the prosthetics. I would argue that his reaction times were not increased as a result of the prosthetic limbs.

I think Vader's armor made him physically more powerful, and it increased his durability. I don't believe it aided him in any other way, aside from acting as a mobile ICU/Iron Lung/vision & hearing aid.

As for the issue of Obi Wan getting weaker or having lost to Vader on the DS: the fight doesn't indicate that on-screen, and Obi Wan gave himself over to the Force. If Vader won, it was a pyrrhic victory.

 

He is stronger before the armor, except physically.

 

Yeah...Grievous had his own flesh grafted onto cybernetics...

ROTS Anakin didn't hate himself though...
Vader did...after losing Padme and being reduced to a respirator on metal legs...

 

I agree with this part and your post is explained. I thought your argument was that Vader was more powerful after the cybernetic enhancement . [/quote]


The only way that Vader is less powerful after the cybernetics is in his force potential.(Even though, I don't fully agree with this. George Lucas has said so therefore I have to go with it.)

But after the cybernetics, Vader is deffinately more powerful than Anakin was in RotS. Just not as powerful as Anakin would've been had he not been injured.

I do believe that the humbling he took at the hands of Obi Wan on Mustafar made him more of a focused less arrogant and frankly more deadly opponent.

What is a full blown cyborg? A cyborg is someone who is part man part machine. GG and Vader are both cyborgs. GG is more machine than Vader is. This is the only difference between the two. Vader has more flesh to him and that allows him to use the force, but they are still both cyborgs.

The cybernetics in the Star Wars universe are so advanced that there is no reason to beleive that cybernetics used by GG are more advantages than the ones that Vader uses. Especially when Vader can manipulate his with the force.

You can argue that Vader's reaction time wasn't increased with the cybernetics, but I argue at the very least his reaction time stayed the same.

 

Careful, you may get your wish with the next round of tampering.

 

If we could only be so lucky. If I see a partial CGI Vader I would die a happy man.

 

Well that's true that's what I said, but I also said the fight would really depend on Anakin. If he can keep his head together, Vader's toast! No matter how wicked and cunning Vader is. He can't hold off a stronger version of himself who is controlled and channeling his powers in the proper way.
MasterYoda5

 

Thats the thing, Anakin is not a stronger version of himself at this point in his training. There is much more training and experience needed for Anakin to be on the same level as Vader was in the OT.

All the potential in the world means nothing if you can't focus enough to tap into it. This has been Anakin's problem from the get go. Only after Mustafar did he finally understand. Like I've said before the biggest change in Anakin after Mustafar was psychologically not physically.

 

DarthJuggalo makes a very good point about why Vader's reaction times should at least still be the same. If the the prosthetics did slow his natural reactions (and there is no actual proof of this), then his force powers should have cancelled out the problem. After all, Vader IS extremely powerful, even if he does possess "only" 80% of Sidious' power, that is still faaaaaaaar more than most Jedi/Sith can say for themselves. Even 60% of Sidious' power would make that particular Jedi/Sith extremely powerful. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense for the cybernetics to be so ineffective, we're talking about a VERY advanced galaxy here.

It also makes sense that cybernetics would eliminate (to at least some degree) the problem of highly distracting pain resulting from the loss of a limb or slash wound if that particular limb (or any part of the body) happens to be cybernetic. Grievous proved as much in ROTS when he lost two of his hands to Obi-Wan, and was merely surprised, not incapacitated by severe pain/shock. That could easily make the difference between victory and defeat. It also eliminates the problem of things like bones (which break far more easily than durasteel) pressure points and arteries in limbs etc.

I don't really buy into the idea that he lost most of his potential. Remember what Yoda said? "Luminous beings we are, not this crude matter!", there seems to be yet another contradiction here, just like the "old men are slow" claim made by Lucas even though several old men fought VERY fast in the PT.

Vader DID defeat a Jedi Master - Roan Shryne in 'Dark Lord' who was one of the few Jedi to be considered for a position on the Jedi Council during the war, and unless I'm mistaken, not just anybody is considered for a position on it.

Vader also displayed considerable skill with a lightsaber in the book, with his moves described as fast, precise, economical, unpredictable and with overwhelming power to back it all up. One of the Jedis' thoughts went as follows; "His style borrowed elements from all forms of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable,". He also gave ground to the Jedi he was fighting, merely defending himself and lulling them into a false sense of security, then striking when an opening presented itself or when he simply wished to end the fight. This tactic of giving ground while merely blocking/parrying until an opening appeared worked well enough for Obi-Wan, so why not Vader? He also leapt from a bridge with apparrent grace and agility. All of this just weeks after Mustafar. Imagine then, how deadly he must have been 10 - 20 years later, even though his fighting style was already held in high regard and his mobility had improved drastically so soon in his career.

Vader, if not more powerful than Anakin, was powerful in a different and arguably deadlier way, from his fighting style to his intimidating appearance.

 

Well, there you have it. I couldn't have said it better myself. Great post!

 

Thanks.

 

Only after Mustafar?? What about the fight with Lord Tyranus on the invisible hand??????
If he fought the same way: controlled, chanelling his powers, knowing that his adversary can be threatening (remember he was able to go from a 6 to a 9 in a time span of only three years, he did that because he knew he had much to learn after the fight with Tyranus in AOTC), not arrogant and being in the here and now. Believe me my dear friend if he fought the same way Vader is gone, badly gone like in 30 seconds.
(I'm a big Obi-fan, but I admit that Obi-Wan would be a goner if Vader wasn't controlled by his emotions, and that was because he had attachments to him)
MasterYoda5 [face_alien_1]

 

I think what Jedi Prime meant to say is that Gen. Grievous is 99% machine while Vader is 50% machine which means that Vader isn't as mobile or fast like Grievous is.

 

I'd agree-if Vader didn't have the Force. Grievious' fighting parts, ie his limbs, are independent of biological interfaces; unlike Vader, which means they can do things that a human body couldn't physically withstand.

However, Vader isn't a normal person, and ergo, his body can do things normal people would die doing-at least, IMO.

As for Force Lightning & cybernetics-it's electricity. They're mechanical parts. Of course it's not a good thing to run high-current blasts through them-we see this in ROTJ, when his suit goes kaput after catching a blast-he has to depend on Luke to even walk.

 

First off, no disrespect but Tyrannus is no Darth Vader suited or not.

Second, If it was even possible for Vader to fight Anakin, Vader would have to say one phrase to Anakin in order for Anakin to lose his cool and go crazy losing his focus.

Like Obi Wan, suited Vader would know exactly how to push Anakin's buttons, in fact even more so than Obi Wan cause Vader knows more about Anakin than even Obi Wan does.

 

I think it's time to agree to disagree. you have your opinion and I have mine. I respect yours, but I really believe a focused Anakin (like against Tyranus) would pawn Vader.
Masteryoda5 [face_alien_1]

 

But Vader's body is too damaged to do the things that normal people couldn't do and just because he has the force doesn't mean that he's immune to the restraints being put on him by his robotic limbs.

 

Exactly what restraints? Cybernetics in the Star Wars universe are so advanced that they are used to enhance sentient beings or give them very lifelike replacements if they lose a limb. Anakin and Luke didn't seem to be restrained by their artificial limb. In fact it appeared that their respective limbs aided them.

I understand that Vader has all of his limbs replaced but I still fail to see how the adavantages of cybernetic limbs decrease as you get more of them. It doesn't really make sense.

 

Physically, to deflect a blow or whatever he may be stronger, but
he is weaker in the force.
GL has already stated somewhere that Vader is weaker afterwards b/c of midi
loss from losing blood/limbs etc..and is no match for Sids anymore.