Darth Vader vs. Darth Revan

Darth Vader wasn't even trying...

Sorry Vader was trying it was Luke who was holding back... when he got serious we see how fast Vader loses.

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he?s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he?s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. It?s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn?t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what?s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost.." - GL, RoTJ.

Obviously Luke is the one who doesn't want to fight and Vader is trying to push Luke to fight. This is supported by both the movie and the Novelization.

Anyways onto Vader vs. Revan. This one is a really close battle and I don't really know who'd win.

I'd probably go with Revan 'cause he's badass.

 

It looks like Lightsnake has backed off... ah well.

 

1. Didn't the ESB novel have the impression he was testing Luke? And if Vader wanted to kill him-and he didn't- Luke's head would've followed his hand. Notice Vader is totally unsurprised when he contacts Luke via telepathy later

2. That calling Vader 'clunky and slow' is unfair because if Lucas had the technology, Vader'd be lightning fast...and for the record, Vader's a damn good swordfighter.

3. Perhaps you'd have noticed in ROTJ Vader wasn't trying against Luke. Luke left himself open about ninety times...no counterattack that Vader could've exploited like in ROTJ. And I can also make the case for Luke only being the mightiest Jedi, amplified even further on the Dark Side

4. Yadda yadda, yadda...Revan's a PC so the only info is what you make of him. He's easily a weakling as well as a powerhouse and for his personality? Sorry, nothing.

5. Because of self sacrifice...you may as well insult Arvel Crynyd for dying. He didn't defend himself or care if he died so long as he killed Palpatine and is, to date, the only person to resist Force Lightning and not be immoblized by it.

6. Umm, actually it was infinite from the Star Forge. Why don't you not play dumb and respond? Revan's whole reasoning behind the war was to put the Republic into shape...which involved wrecking it completely, doing damage to his own forces and helping NOONE

7. Prove Revan learned a single lightsaber technique from KOTOR, go on, go on, PROVE IT. Now, did he, or did he use a gaffi stick the entire time! Did he shoot Malak in the back? The wonders of gameplay, eh? Moreover, Revan;s a poor lightsaber fighter considering he never follows up on his attack and can't cut a vibroblade with a lightsaber.

8. So, where's Revan in the OT? Oh, that's right, dead. Prove to me he didn't die in battle, or screaming in agony. Or that Revan was male...guess we can't prove a damn thing until KOTOR 3 comes out, can we?

9. Have you read...ANYTHING with Vader in it? In Shadows of the Empire, Vader is painted as a cruel, subtle genius. In every book and comic Vader's in, he supplaments brute forc e with strokes of ironic, cruel genius...he organizes taking a string of planets with a squadron when a wing lost.


My SINCEREST apologies for not stapling my eyelids to my forehead, clicking 'reload' on my computer while staring at TFN boards my entire life and taking the time to forumalte a response that may take a few minutes to write

 

L_S I was reffering to ROTJ. I thought you were contesting that Padawan Luke didn't beat Vader aboard the DS II, if I was incorrect then I apologize.

In ESB, Vader is clearly toying with Luke.

 

No issues.

Here's an idea: Why don't we put both Vader and Revan at their top physical and mental prowess and put them against one another. Only way for this fight to be fair considering people boast of how Revan could win, yet ignore Vader is weaker than he would do, so the fight's unfairly balanced before it begins.

I'd LOVE to see Revan stand a chance, even against suited Vader.

In ROTJ, also, I doubt Vader's trying to actively kill Luke as opposed to Luke. He takes none of Luke's HUGE openings, clearly hopes he can still turn Luke and by the point? Luke's an incredibly powerful and gifted Jedi, the darkside only amplifies him

 

I am on the side of Vader being the chosen one.I also dont care for revan.I just wanted to say something about suited vader.


Vader after 20 plus yrs in that suit lost alot of skill....He was mostly Power.He was a complete shell no matter how much power he "thinked" he gained.


"Vader uses Djem So...which is incredibly effective and vicious in combat."



Which is very true,However vaders djem So, is more vicious than effective.Djem so is also based on athlectic ability and he lost so much of that after being put in the suit.The game mechanics of ROTS game helped me understand Vader More.He Clearly has Power,But he is clunky and a bit Unrefined.I loved hacking away,but preferred the combination of Power AND Grace that Mace Had.I am Lead to believe that vader can be beaten more easily with skill than power.




From my understanding Vader beat no Jedi of significance once he was in the suit...He didnt fight jedi with the skill set of a Mace or Yoda or Obiwan.Now that i look back at it,Luke beating Vader is really not that important to me....Its the fact that Luke Mastered himself to a point that he wouldnt let his emtions control him and kill vader.That to me is the defintive Point.

After ESB Vader was bound to lose.He lost to a Luke that still at that time was not at the skill set of Mace,Yoda,Obi.

I feel the Jedi that vader killed werent that much of a threat at all.I know vader did alot of slaughtering in his early yrs in the suit...but of what skill was his foes?.

I am not convinced Vader could handle Elite foes in that suit.

 

Vader killed Ranik Solusar, The Dark Woman, butchered MANY Jedi on Hapes, the Guardian of Nespis VIII...in the suit.

Vader didn't lose skill in the suit, he kept himself very in shape and if Crimson Empire is any indication, he was rather agile and fast.

 

Your 'arguements' are so full of fallacies that I wonder if I should even respond. But I'll do so anyway.

1. So, even though Vader was evidently using his full strength, he still wasn't trying to kill Luke? Vader just fed off his temporary weakness of losing a hand to try to turn him.

2. Actually, Vader could well have just been a guy who was not in a suit in the first place... Lucas did choose to stick him in the thing... Good swordfighter? Yeah right. If it hadn't been for the suit, Luke's wild swing to his shoulder would have sliced him in half.

3. 'Open'? How do you define 'open'? Vader knew the whole 'only two' rule. I think he deduced that Palps intended to replace him with his son. He would have been trying his hardest to kill Luke so he could stay alive, and as a Sith.

4. Hell no. He has an incredibly detailed backstory that cannot be changed. Have you even played KOTOR?

5. What the hell does Arvel Crynyd have anything to do with this? And how many people have you seen hit by Force Lightning? And if we're bringing the books into this, I can say that a Vong shrugged Jacen's Force lightning in the NJO; does that make Revan any less powerful?

6. The value of 'infinity' is impossible, by the way. Just in case you forgot, no matter can be created or destroyed. They have to bring in the raw materials somehow. This isn't Star Trek. And besides, there is no logic at all in your assumption that Revan was blowing up the whole Republic to 'put it into shape, as you say. If he wanted to help it, why would he blow it up?!

7. This statement has cemented in my mind that you embody one of two options: One, you've never played KOTOR, or two, you weren't listening. Alright, you aren't forced to use the saber at all. That's the point of RPGs. But, the overwhelming majority of us have used it sometime or another. You can learn how to Flurry, Critcal Strike, Finesse, Two Hand Weilding, and on. You forget that KOTOR is turnbased. And also, within the first ten minutes of the game, you are told about cortosis weave, a material that stops lightsabers, and is something that Bioware devised to make it so that the lightsaber would not end a fight by cutting the other blade in half. You've never played KOTOR...

8. Saying that Revan is dead in the OT is the very embodiment of obviousness. We know that he is dead. No one lives forever. Saying what you said is like saying that Hercules (who didn't exist, just like Vader and Revan), is dead, so his achievements don't matter.

9. Actually, yeah. I try very hard to read all the EU I can. I seem to remember an incident where Vader had to kill some planetary governor. Instead of sending in assassins in the night, he bombards half the planet from orbit. Nice and subtle, huh?

This is getting boring.

 

What part of his body did he keep in shape his torso???? the rest was robotic, there is nothing to keep in shape.Vader lost plenty skill Dont even sit there and convince yourself that he didnt.

He lost plenty skill from his unsuited days.The novel States he is Half the Man he Used to be.


And none of the Jedi you mentioned are on the level of Mace,Yoda,Obi.

The Pooka Jedi that vader Killed are not impressive.

 

1. Whoever said Vader was fighting at his best? Every source states Vader toyed with Luke in ESB.

2. Luke's attack would've done no more damage than Dooku's first strike to Obi-wan in AOTC. Luke still would've lost the hand. And by the by, Lucas put Vader in the suit at first because it was more menacing and made him more a symbol of fear.

3. Open? Open like pulling the saber back, giving Vader a perfect chance to spit him if he so desired? No way, no how could Vader have missed if he desired to kill Luke there. And hello? Hello? "Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as Father and Son!" Lucas has said Vader was trying to get rid of the emperor and rule with Luke as well. If they turned together, you think Palpatine could've withstood them both?

4. Revan has a backstory, big whoop. Doesn't mean he has a personality or any skills.

5. Vong aren't effected by the Force as a whole, besides JAcen didn't even KNOW how to use Force Lightning.
People who've been hit: Ani in AOTC, Luke in ROTJ, Yoda in ROTS, Mace in ROTS...certainly hurled Yoda back. Vader's the only to person to keep moving WHILE he's being hit...by the most powerful Sith ever, no less.

6. And the Star Forge could keep making the ships with no end. Umm...KOTOR 2 states Revan was trying to prepare the Republic for a greater threat with his war. KOTOR 2> Your opinion

7. Oh, I've played KOTOR. So, everyone awnd their mother has cortosis weave, even the sand people. Prove to me Revan learned Critical Strike, Master Flurry, Power attack...and if you do, I can say Revan was dumb enough not to follow through on his attack and let his foe take his turn. Or that destroying a droid suddenly allows him to learn how to heal someone *Rolls eyes* Gameplay, gameplay...

8. In the end, Hercules's accomplishments meant very little. Now, we'll have to see if Revan died of natural causes or not.

9. What planet is this, I'm curious? Balmorra? Falleen?
I advise you to read Vader's Tales stories, where his dueling strategems are beyond compare, Dark Empire and Empire's End, when Sedriss and Nist are in awe of his power and his brilliance, Shadows of the Empire, when he manages to conduct clandestine operations under Palpatine's nose and discredits and kills Xizor? In the X-wing comics where Baron Fel marvels at some of the plans he concocts? Hoth, where he turned Ozzel's stupidity into a devastating route to the Rebels? Empire, where he makes it through everything they throw at him, adapts to primal life instantly, or crimson Empire where he destroys the best of the Imperial Guard like it's nothing?

Effortless: You'll notice the 'half the man he used to be' is just as metaphorical.

You'll notice GRIEVOUS was robotic and he was a fearsome Jedi killer.

Ranik Solusar was known as one of the best Jedi of the old Order, the Dark Womanw as one of the mightiest in the ENTIRE Order, the Jedi on Hapes weren't weaklings...Darth Maul? Tales story Ressurection?

If all you're accepting is Jedi on the levels of Obi-wan, Mace and Yoda who, are the three of the top Jedi ever, then you'd be sorely disappointed. Lower your standards

 

Light snake now your going into infinties?? man....


And i will not lower my standards for Vader.He was the choesen one.I am not arguing the fact that vader is not talented and skillful.I am saying that Vader before the suit With out question could have killed those three.But After being in the suit i cant see it.If he Killed a Jedi of that Skill set in the suit then i wouldnt question if he can handle the elite of the elite in saber to saber combat.Force ability he wipes the floor with most...Saber skill inside the suit is a differnt story.

 

1. I don't think that toying with someone entails the fact that your brutal swings are any less deadly. What if Luke had missed one block? He would have been cut in half.

2 & 3. Well, actually, Dooku used a technique not unlike fencing to slide his saber across his limbs, creating shallow gashes that disabled him. Luke's saber somehow (I still have no idea how this happened) bounced off his shoulder armor. Should that have not been there, the saber would have kept going. Vader would have been a strangely shaped wreck on the floor.

4. Personality? What does personality have to do with skills? He had a brain wipe. His personality is what the player makes of it. Just because he has no personality doesn't mean he has no skills.

5. Jacen can't use Force Lightning? Ever read Star by Star? He shocked up Vong left and right. They embraced the pain, as always, but they died soon enough from their CNS being fried to a crisp. And it isn't Force Lightning anyway. The Force makes the lightning, which is comprised of electricity, which is compelled into a closed circuit by the... alright, you get it.

6. Actually, what it says depends on what you, the exile, says happened. When you talk to Atton early in the game, you choose how the past played out.

7. For once, I agree with you. Gameplay, gameplay...

8. We have to wait and see. However, he hasn't died yet, has he?

9. I can't remember the name of the planet, but I know it started with an 'R'. I am not very familiar with Balmorra besides the fact that it is a large droid foundry planet. Falleen was neccessary; a virus escaped, and it had to be eradicated. What would you have done? Let people get contaminated, and have them flee the planet to others, where they contaminate more people, who go to another planet and contaminate more, and so on? And the Red Guard use Force Pikes, not lightsabers. No real contest.

 

Effortless: those stories I am siting were written IN continuity, stated as in continuity by Leland Chee. And inside the suit, he wipes the floor with anyone. Like Grievous, considering the same technology was used for Vader...only improved upon. And by the by: you've failed to respond to how I said what suited Vader's Done.

Zar:
1. His swings aren't less deadly, but Luke blocking them? Vader was toying with him there as he was trying to take him alive from the start.

2/3. All that may've accomplished was a deep lightsaber cut in Vader's shoulder from the angle. Prove now, that unsuited Vader would have let Luke hit him.

4. And Revan's only good as whoever's controlling him. He just as easily has no skills as many.

5. Jacen did it out of the blue with no training or experience in it, was what I meant. And Force Lightning is just the term for it: Plus, by that point, Jacen'd got a lot further into the Vong than most any other Jedi. Besides, Jacen's lightning was different than Palpatine's.

6. You choose how the past played out, but that's vague. The events themselves? Shrouded in ambiguity.

7. Indeed.

8. We don't know if revan's alive or dead...he went to fight the 'True sith' and vanished, Carth even says he think Revan failed. For all we know, Revan is indeed dead...it'd beat having to cover ALL the bases in the next KOTOR game, wouldn't it?

9. When Vader fought the Royal Guard, he also used a Force pike in Crimson Empire. He only used a lightsaber at one point to discpline Kir Kanos. When he fought Danid, he faced him with the same weapon and utterly destroyed him, 'toying with him as he would a child' to use the exact quote. I was just checking with you what the planet was. When you find the name, please get back to me on it. And yes, Vader was right on Falleen.

I'm only siting stories that were written in continuity, btw...Ressurection was written in

 

1) since when was resurrection written in? Sure it doesn't breach any continuity and just requires a stretch of the imagination, but as far as I know, the return of Maul in Visionaries is closer to being canon than resurrection. It's jsut I was checking a thread where it was mentioned that the visionaries story and resurrection might be canon later on, but hadn't been done yet

2) Force Lightning is of the Force, it is not a technique used to create lightning. Funnily enough, it's called Force Lightning, because the lightning is the Force

 

i didnt fail to respond to it....The dark woman is nobody impressiveh .Mace would have cleaned House with her.The other feats vader did also entailed help from Storm troopers.So what you mention vader did not act alone,it loses luster in my eyes...and again those jedi are not the elite of the elite you named.

 

The Dark Woman was hailed as one of the STRONGEST JEDI OF THE ORDER.
So ****ing WHAT if Mace could have beaten her?! Mace could have beaten most anyone! All the elite of the elite were DEAD in Order 66 and the Dark Woman was possibly the most powerful Master of the Old Order left besides Yoda. Like I said, lower your damn standards. If all you can say is 'Oh, she wasn't impressive, Mace would've beaten her', than you forget there's maybe three or four people Mace CAN'T defeat. Period.

And it was directly stated Vader killed the Hapes Jedi, Nespis VIII Guardian AND Ranik in a one on one each time. And the royal guards, and Maul, and Trachta's ambush...
Charlemange explained it real well in the Darth Maul thread...And I have a direct link where Chee said 'Old Wounds' isn't canon if you want it

 

"4. And Revan's only good as whoever's controlling him. He just as easily has no skills as many."

Regardless, whatever his talents and skills are, they're enough to...

A. Destroy wave after wave of Star Forge droids (considered more than a match for any "mere" Jedi)
B. Defeat dozens of elite Sith soldiers and Dark Jedi
C. Defeat Jedi Knight Bastila Shan while she is being empowered by the Star Forge's power
D. Defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith Malak (He's the Vader of their time)
E. Slay three Terantareks (or whatever those Dark Side Jedi killers are called)
F. Redeem Sith Lord Ajunta Pall
G. Kill Mandalore
H. Defeat the Mandalorian armies
I. Turn many, many loyal, dedicated Republic officers who had sworn to give their lives for the Republic into starting a war of aggression against the Republic

The only thing that stopped Revan from crushing the Republic (it should also be noted that Revan purposely avoided destroying or damaging important military production sites because the Star Forge was only a limited source that would eventually destroy its users, as the Rakatan show clearly) was Bastila's Battle Meditation, and the only thing that allowed him to even be captured was Malak's betrayal.

While Revan defeated many, many Jedi, Vader lost to Luke twice, first when Luke was barely an apprentice (Splinter in the Mind's Eye) and once again in ROTJ, in which Luke clearly beats him.

 

I am not lowering nothing.Vader is not the sumpreme fighter in the suit.Nothing you say can change that fact.You mention dark woman Again??She was one of the strongest after the 20 before her were killed off.Dark woman Couldnt handle Shaak ti or Depa when they were all in the order.And you also Forget at least 90% of the order Used form 6 the diplomats form at the time the order fell.Vader's Djem So would have easily taken them out.How many other Djem So users did he fought?????.According to SW insdier very few jedi could even handle the power of Djem So.So i doubt many Jedi even knew that skill.Once again Showing that vader fought the weaker jedi.

Vader slaughtering form 6 users is like fighting padawans.Before the suit he could hardly break Kneobi's form 3 defense,he had way more ability then.

Again Vader Hasnt Beaten anyone on the level of those three.So what he beat captains and majors...he didnt beat Generals.....Thats my point.he could hardly beat A padawan Luke in ROTJ....Once again those three skill sets are higher.

 

Ranik Solusar was a man who valued the saber qand knew how to fight.
The Nespis VIII guardian would've known Soresu.
Dark Woman despised the complacent nature of the Jedi and she and Tholme were two of the greatest, acknolwegded by T'Ra Saa, who was older than YODA. Emmisaries of Malastar and Jedi: Aayla secura went to lengths to describe how strong she was...she was too much a maverick to accept a spot on the council and she was better than Ki-Adi Mundi. the younger Jedi used Form VI...the more experienced ones did not.
And Obi-wan was his, y'know, teacher, giving him a gargantuan advantage.

Gee, could it be Vader never beat anyone on those skill tiers because noone but those three was ever ON those skill tiers excluding maybe Dooku?

 

nope.

Once again I love Vader.But he Is not the End all to Combat in the suit.Everything you speak of i know already.I am not convinced vader beat a worthy Foe.DW's POV does not equate to Fighting Prowness.And most used form 6 since the galaxy was at peace and no jedi were fighting blade users at the time.


Hopefully Dark Lord will change My view on Vader.

 

Considering T'Ra Saa fought in the Sith Wars and Ki-Adi was a fighter on the council, I think they know what they're talking about..

 

Yeah Anakin kept loosing his limbs,he lost his right hand alone a total of 3x,twice as a Sith Lord,always needing a new mechanical one,lol!

Vader is a loser,that looks great in the suit,but was a sadcase cyborg.

Vader in ESB was barely able to keep up and handle the poorly trained and inexperianced LUke,this alone was the only real reason why he won. Luke was stronger and much faster,he did the Jedi leep,which surprised the Helmeted one,and fought on holding his own against the Vader, who resort to force throwing objects to weaken Luke.Then Vader needed re-newed strenght through the darkside after he got hit on the shoulder,to beat down Luke finally.



You also seem to forget that his plan failed,he didnt intend to fight Luke in prolonged duel,he wanted to only push him towards the trap and freeze him.A prolonged Battle with the young jedi,wouldve killed him,his robotic lungs probably would have exploded.You could see and hear that he was under a lot of strain.

(If you go by Splinter of the Minds Eye which comes before ESB,Vader got beat very badly,and lost his hand)

In ROTJ,it was Luke that held back,cause he didnt want to kill his father,he wanted to save him..But once he let go,he litteralty owned Vader in a matter of seconds.

 

Luke didn't hold back at the end when Vader mentioned Leia. It's confirmed Vader held back in ESB completely and in Splinter, it was Obi-wan fighting, not Luke.
Nice try

 

"Luke didn't hold back at the end when Vader mentioned Leia"

Yeah, that's what he said.

"in Splinter, it was Obi-wan fighting, not Luke."



Okay, so Vader lost to a Force Ghost

 

Jacen can't use Force Lightning? Ever read Star by Star? He shocked up Vong left and right. They embraced the pain, as always, but they died soon enough from their CNS being fried to a crisp. And it isn't Force Lightning anyway. The Force makes the lightning, which is comprised of electricity, which is compelled into a closed circuit by the... alright, you get it.

Just wanted to point out that you combined about three different events, here. It was Jaina who used Force lightning on the Yuuzhan Vong in Star by Star. Jacen used it in Traitor, but it was unable to affect them. (That, coupled with the fact that Jaina's lightning apparently blew a huge hole in a Vong's chest, makes me wonder if what she was using was really classic Force lightning, but that's neither here nor there.) Then in Destiny's Way, Jacen shoots green lightning which he doesn't consider to be of the dark side because it doesn't electrocute them, it just puts them to sleep. Uh-huh.

Actually, what it says depends on what you, the exile, says happened. When you talk to Atton early in the game, you choose how the past played out.

Yes, but that's just another example of gameplay mechanics. The canon ending of KOTOR is light side male.


(If you go by Splinter of the Minds Eye which comes before ESB,Vader got beat very badly,and lost his hand)

Whoa, not at all. Luke was able to cut off Vader's arm only when after Obi-Wan possessed him, and even then Vader just pried his lightsaber out his own severed hand and kept on coming. Luke would have been utterly screwed if Vader hadn't fallen down that conveniently placed well.