Darth Vader's New Look (Rebels)

He's just very happy!

 

Vader looks hardly anything like Dr Doom painted black --- I see almost no resemblance. Ezra and Aladdin not only look alike but share the exact same backstory of orphan street urchin, "gotta steal to eat, gotta eat to live". With only one of those similarities (story OR look), it may have been subtle enough to escape sharp criticism. Sharing BOTH those similarities makes it blatantly obvious and a prime target for dissent.

That's fine --- how about for criticizing the choice and wishing that a different team, one that had never made such "legitimate" artistic choices, had been given the chance to carve out the new Star Wars canon. As I've said previously, in my humblest of opinions, anyone that puts out a product like Ziro and Stinky the Hutt deserve to never touch Star Wars again with a 50 ft pole, be it Filoni or Lucas himself. It indicates radical judgement --- a little too far on the fringe. Give them the reins for a handful more years and we get the "legitimate" art choices of scowling Vaders, pink mandalorians, Aladdin lookalikes and emaciated wookies.

That's the look he was going for, and he got it. We knew it was coming after we let him stay onboard after the 2008 Snips/Skyguy, Ziro/Stinky debacle. Some people on here even love THOSE decisions. I'm happy for them, even though I wish their opinions weren't the majority view of the fanbase (and I still hope that that is not the case).

While they are legitimate choices, I still contend that less than 1% of the fanbase would gripe at getting a more traditional, less one-dimensional / caricature Vader art style. From this thread alone, I see that at least 40-50% of the fanbase dislike the scowling Vader look. It may not be deal-breaking to the point of not watching or enjoying the show, but it still is a small bother to a reasonably large percentage of the fanbase (based on the % of posters in this thread alone).

So while legitimate, is it wise to make art style decisions at 40+ % of the fanbase will mildly to strongly dislike, when a different art style, already established and loved by 99% of the fanbase, is already available for you to use?

 

Assuming the 'he' was me (a bit confusing with the page break! ) @ darskpine is absolutely correct in his phrasing. I am NOT saying that scowly Vader is the 'right' look and the only right choice. I am ONLY saying that it is just as valid an option as a Vader who looks identical in every detail to the film version. Stylised and photorealistic are just two of many options available, all of which would have their fans and their detractors. That's been my argument all along - that saying you don't like Vader's look is absolutely alright by me. Saying his look reflects in any way on the series' objective quality (the plot, the characterisation, the thematic choices) and Filoni's personal competence is not. You could dislike Vader and ALSO the plot. Fine. You could like Vader's look and not the plot. You could like both. But linking them and saying the one is intrinsically linked to the other is fallacious and incorrect.

Darth Saxman, please provide some actual sources for your statistics there because I refuse to acknowledge any figures you can't provide an independent source for, as otherwise you or I could conjure up any hypothetical figure and prove nothing whatsoever.

I must also take issue with your insistence that Aladdin and Ezra are exactly the same. I acknowledge the visual similarity. But I can't remember Ezra running around the streets with an animal sidekick, and I must have missed the episode where he discovered a magic lamp and befriended an all-powerful genie. Was that the same one where he romanced a princess? Because that slips my mind also. Though Aladdin wielding a slingshot and later on a sword that is also a gun doesn't ring any bells. I am tempted to wonder what similarities beyond 'thief with dark hair' there actually are. Heaven forfend two different characters should happen to be based on a common enough archetype.

 

Vader always looked evil , his skull and gas mask with an over stylized Nazi helmet. Tarkin and other military figures were modeled after Fascist/Nazi military officers.


Dooku traded in his Jedi robes for a military style uniform typical of far left and far right military dictatorships of the 20th century and other imperialist style dress of the ages before. Dooku may of been more subtle but his outfit was always supposed to be proto-Imperial in-universe. The Count Dooku persona was supposed to be his public figure as this political idealist and revolutionary, a tyrant and supreme commander of Separatist forces. The colors he used, seemed more for show, to install a false sense of him still being a Jedi Master which was to add to his legitimacy for those that actually believed in the Separatist cause that we have a Jedi on our side, it gave them some assurance and credibility and the more sinister meaning was that Dooku never left the Jedi but was acting under the Jedi Council's edict the entire time.

 

When we say "fan base", what we're really talking about is revenue. So the real question is whether Filoni should make artistic decisions based on money.

 

I think I don't understand your argument then because in post 192 you brought plot and characterisation into this, making disparaging remarks on ANH.

 

Only in reference to plot and characterisation remarks being made (disparagingly) regarding Rebels. I have been defending Darth Vader's look as a valid choice and the argument got broadened. I am merely reacting as such.

 

But what has rebels simplistic plot and characters to do with ANH? How are they even comparable (not that agree with your view of the OT characters)? One is a tv-show spanning lots and lots of episodes, providing lots and lots of screentime, the other is a two hours movie which almost bursts at the seams from the amount of actual content it contains.

It smells a bit like prequel apologists logic. "But the OT did the same thing!" And "the same" in this case is of course only something superficially similar, details that would distinguish them from each other get ignored. I find it pretty annoying.

As for Vader's look: It came to my mind that it can't be called original for a simple reason. It is derivative, derivative by definition in fact. It derived from the Darth Vader look in the movies plus the McQuarrie design.

 

You keep refusing to discuss my comment that Filoni could have and should have gone with a traditional view that 99+% of the fanbase would appreciate strictly because I can't actually produce statistical numbers as to how to fans would like/dislike the traditional and like/dislike the scowling Vader. Use your common sense --- there is no doubt that significantly more fans would like traditional Vader vs scowly Vader --- there is no need to get the exact number via an independent poll (although one could be done......maybe I will start a thread based on that, if ability to create a poll exists on here (I'm not too experienced of a poster on this board).

You acknowledge the visual similarities and then say that it is only the dark hair. Let me repost the image of Aladdin and his father compared to Ezra and his father in order for it to sink in.



It goes way beyond the dark hair. Just because they are not the exact same characters with the exact same sidekicks, weapons etc. doesn't get Filoni and co. off the hook for producing an incredibly unoriginal, uninspiring, bland, dare I say insulting-to-the-viewer protagonist for the ONLY Star Wars show available and for some of the very first new Star Wars canon material being put out in the crucial and valuable time period between Episodes III and IV.

I stand by my opinion that a different team could have produced so much more vibrant, original, fresh, and exciting new characters and storylines for Star Wars canon in the Episodes III and IV timeframe. That team likely would have been smart enough to cast Vader as he has always been cast, and there would have been no serious complaints.

How can we take this seriously and praise the team that gives us this:



when it looks more like this:



and this:



than this:

 

This is why typing sarcastically doesn't work: I was simply referring to the fact that guess what, cartoon, computer generated Vader for some weird wacky reason doesn't look exactly the same in minutiae as live action costume Vader... and that's fine. Why should he? Cartoons are supposed to look realistic. That's what I meant by 'original' - not a point for point reproduction of the movie Vader look. Which as I've since found out, is blasphemy and heresy and for some reason NOT a valid choice a phrase which I must keep repeating until people realise I am NOT saying Vader must NOT look just like film-Vader, simply that it's an option amongst many for them to alter his design to suit the show. I am not advocating film-Vader being altered to have the scowly brow. I am not saying film Vader isn't one of the most iconic and intimidating screen villains in history. I am just saying that fiddling with his brow line is hardly a sin, it's a minor variation on a famous and beloved design and the majority of fans aren't going to notice nor care because most 'casual' fans aren't going to follow Rebels anyway... whatever the heck Vader looks like.

And you also completely missed my point regarding the plot of the films in comparison to the show. It's not about complexity or depth of writing or number of characters, it's the fact that the films and the show both draw on pretty standard character and plot arcs. In different ways, yes, because they are different mediums and aimed at different audiences and are in different formats. But archetypal characters and plotlines are as fundamental to the films as they are to Rebels, and the examples I used illustrate that.

@ Darth Saxman... Dude. Ezra's father has not even appeared in the flesh in the show. He may not ever appear in the show at all, and if he does may well look different given that picture shows him around ten years before the show even begins. And Aladdin's dad? Appeared in one film that not many people have seen. Ezra is a street rat with dark hair (which appears blue in strong light). He has that backpack thing, a jacket, trousers and boots. Aladdin is a street rat with dark hair (which remains black, always), who wears a vest, baggy pantaloons things and that fez-type hat. They have being orphans in common but there's a few of those around. They DO look similar, I am not denying that... but they are completely different characters and they go in different directions and there are far more differences than similarities as CHARACTERS. What they look like will not change that fact. They are different characters who look similar. The horror! Filoni is a hack who could not contrive a character who looks totally different to any other character in any other medium ever. Except Sabine the Pink Mandalorian and Scowling Vader, but those are horrible because they look different. Which way around are the Rebels artists supposed to go?

Those other two pictures of Vader are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, or at least the argument that I am making, because FILONI HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE DESIGNS. What you or I or he thinks of them doesn't have any bearing on the design he chooses for the show he does actually have an input into. If several people all think that a more exaggerated cartoony Vader works better in an actual cartoon maybe it's because they know a bit about the business and what works in this medium. Or perhaps they are merely doing it to spite a random percentage of Star Wars fans.

You claim that significantly more would like traditional Vader than scowly Vader - it seems evenly enough split on here, hardly overwhelming either way (which is the point I have been making - people like different things, there is not a right or wrong about that) and outside of here? No-one cares. There is no mass outbreak of protest. People don't care about a small change to a design in one show.

 

When you are the only show available to the fans, and are going to be the only show that incorporates Vader for at least a few years to come (and the only show that has done so since 2005), in a crucial time period to the series, and will be telling a story that is considered canon to the Star Wars universe and not a comedy show or something that could be deemed as legends, then you have the responsibility to not fiddle so noticeably with Vader's look. Yes, it is a "sin", when you are the only team that is given the privilege of creating new Star Wars canon in a TV-show format.

We don't have a vast arrays of shows and movies with Vader to choose from (other than comedy shows made in farse from time to time like the Family Guy series that accentuate Vader's features as ridiculously as the permanent scowl, and usually exactly by doing that --- putting a big, silly scowl on his brow). This is all we've got. I would be a lot more lenient on Filoni and his team's choices if there were more products to choose from.

 

Filoni DOES have the privilege of creating the new Star Wars canon, yeah. And do you know why that is? Because he is successful. Because enough people like his work enough that he continues to get work, that is generally positively received by the audience as a whole and the number of viewers and audience share back that up - otherwise he'd be out of work. He is under absolutely NO obligation to choose a Vader design that you like, any more than he is obliged to choose one that I like. He is under the obligation to choose one he thinks will work for the show and make it a success; thus far, the evidence is that he's succeeded. Once the audience numbers start bleeding away and viewing figures drop and the show struggles to be taken seriously by the audience AS A WHOLE, then he's failed. Until then he's simply doing his job.

Your 'lenience' for Filoni, or lack thereof, is totally irrelevant. He owes you nothing. He is not making decisions on the basis of will Darth Saxman enjoy this Vader design? Will Jakobitis89? He is making decisions that he thinks will keep the show in business, currently successfully. That is it.

 

Dr. Filonilove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying And Love The Scowl

 

This thread is about artistic style [of Vader] and we've brought the other controversial artistic style choices into the mix of discussion as well. We're not talking about their characters and how Ezra won't end up beating Snake Jafar in the end and freeing a genie in a lamp. You've acknowledged that they look similar. They look VERY similar. So do their Dads. This deserves to be called out as unoriginal, uninspiring, bland etc. when you are talking about the main protagonist of the only Star Wars show available.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head even though you said it sarcastically. Filoni and his artistic team do deserve to be called out as unoriginal, untalented hacks for putting forward such a character profile as that. You took it so far as to say that Ezra would have to look different to any other character ever created, and that is illogical hyperbole. It's not a matter of not avoiding any similarities to any character ever created, it's making sure that the look is original enough such that at first glance, you are not reminded of any glaringly obvious similarities to pre-existing characters, in-universe or out-of-universe but well-known in pop culture, especially ones that share a similar backstory. When you go and make the Dad look so similar to the other character's Dad, then you are just making it that much more obvious that you uninspiringly and confusingly ripped off artwork from another universe.

You also put forth the strange logic that criticizing the Rebels artists for ripping off Aladdin's look ends up justifying them for "being different / original" and creating pink mandalorians and scowly Vader.

Can you really not see the failed logic there? It's possible for Filoni's team to fail when they are being uncreative and bland and to fail when they strive to be original. IMO, these are examples that prove that they fail on both accounts, considering that they bear the responsibility of being the only canon Star Wars show on TV.

I posted those other pictures of Vader to show just how similar the Rebels scowling Vader looks to those ridiculous comedic versions of Vader. They are completely relevant because Filoni has made his Vader scowl just as ridiculously as those other Vaders that were made to scowl specifically to fit the ridiculous caricature look that was needed for a comedy show.

 

What's actually wrong with Pink Mandalorian armour? It's not like the haven't been every other colour.

 

IMO, Filoni is successful because he is the only person graced with the privilege of putting out new canon animated Star Wars. He's been the only guy given that chance for 10 years. People love Star Wars. Filoni does Star Wars. Thus, people love Filoni no matter what he puts out, be it english-speaking Hutts, Stinky/Skyguy/Snips nicknames, pink mandalorians, scowling vaders, aladdin lookalikes, emaciated wookies, the list goes on. Why? Because it is the only Star Wars available and people want Star Wars. Filoni gets a free pass and credited with the success, despite proving time and time again that he and his team have questionable judgement and mediocre talent.

Of course there is no way to prove this, because there is no competition, but with healthy competition, I'll bet Filoni would have diminished in popularity and influence LONG ago. He should have faded into obscurity after the 2008 Clone Wars movie bomb.

Young kids will line up in droves for Star Wars no matter how questionable the quality. I'm an old fogey that saw the quality of Star Wars from the 80s up through the prequels and the decline that has happened since. One could say that some thing in Star Wars along the way were silly and out of place, like some characters in the Dark Forces or Jedi Knight games, the XWing series, etc. Also, some plotlines in the extended universe books were sometimes a little out there. But there was plenty of material to choose from, and for the most part, the quality was excellent. People took the source material seriously and tried to live within the universe that George created for them with the OT. The look and feel were all reasonably authentic. The new material also managed to be reasonably original (nothing that came close to mixing universes like Ezra's Aladdin look or Ziro the Hutt's truman capote louisiana-speaking caricature) and maintained a feel of Star Wars authenticity. Filoni and co. keep giving us examples of how they just don't care about maintaining such quality and staying true to the look and feel of the Star Wars universe that many of us grew up loving and loving. The Star Wars universe that made it possible for Filoni to ride its coattails in the present day.

 

Hey, it may be a decline for you, but to me TCW is the pinnacle of Star Wars. But that's just my opinion, who am I to argue with you, etc.

 

Well if making characters that do look different is wrong, and making characters that don't look different is also wrong... what is the argument? I mean you can simply say either/both are wrong at the same time. The point becomes literally impossible to debate. A still frame of Ezra looks like a lot like a still frame of Aladdin, okay fair point. But when I think of associations with Aladdin, I think Abu, the Genie, Agrabah, Jafar, Jasmine, the indeterminately Middle-Eastern setting. When I think of Ezra I think Hera, Sabine, the rest of the Ghost crew, Tarkin, adventures in space. The fact the two characters look similar doesn't remotely mean they ARE similar, personality wise. I am perfectly capable of spotting the difference and I daresay anyone with an IQ in the double digits is probably able to work out that Rebels doesn't literally feature Aladdin with a lightsaber. His looking like Aladdin is not coincidence, we see him and right away we get the idea he is supposed to be a street rat, lives by his wits, thief but heroic (none of which are exclusive to either character of course)... and then he becomes his own character. Who, yeah, does look like Aladdin.

Sabine is pink because that is HER CHARACTER. She is Mandalorian - she enjoys a fight and is handy with explosives... but she's also got a creative streak, a rebellious side, she's artistic. This is shown by how she acts but painting the grim intimidating armour bright pink and dying her hair is an expression of her personality visually. She is not supposed to be like the mercenary business like Mandalorians we've seen before - the armour is shorthand for that right off the bat. She IS an original character (unless you or anyone reading can provide another artistic Mandalorian Rebel) but this is ALSO wrong. All Mandalorians in their armour must look just as much like Boba Fett as Ezra LOOKS like Aladdin. A character looking like another character is a bad decision. A character who doesn't look like another character is also a bad decision. You simply judge them on whether you happen to like the character they look like, not as independent characters in their own right. You criticise the creators for being original, but also for NOT being original based purely on whether you like the choice they came up with.

Scowly Vader is the only Vader we're going to see on screen for a while, because Filoni made that choice. He thought it correct, you think otherwise. Time and viewing figures will tell who was right. Personally, I don't care much either way. I actually prefer classic Vader's look. But I don't see him having a scowl as some horrific design aberration. If it works in action and animation then I am more than fine with it. Those other Vaders? I don't know where they're from. Or care - because I don't watch those shows, I watch and enjoy Rebels. What Vader looks like on any other show won't change that.

You keep on harping this point that the show is WORSE because Vader looks (in your opinion) silly/clichéd/cartoony/whatever. I am just repeating that subjective taste about art is in no way indicative of objective quality of product.

 

Numbers by NO means are the only measure of merit, J89. It's a rather hollow one in fact. Numbers don't reflect reception. People are allowed to disagree with you and the creatives behind SW. Just because there dare be a few dissenting voices doesn't mean we should be muzzled or ridiculed non-stop. There are REASONS for why we feel as we do just as much as you hold your own. It isn't a HORRID thing to be different and liking and caring about the Saga doesn't have to mean swallowing or condoning everything ever done in it.

 

Man, this post is about as on-target as you can get. Too many people think that they are somehow "owed" Star Wars material that conforms only to their views or opinions. Star Wars is nothing more than a product. Just like the NFL and cat food.

Aside from polls on a forum populated by SW super-nerds, is there any hard evidence that the design of Vader's helmet is disliked by the "fan-base" enough to affect revenue? Because that's the only thing that ultimately matters.

 

On page 7 of this thread, you asked what a Nerfherder was and defended Snips/Skyguy as being a better style joke than the scruffy looking nerfherder joke from ESB.

With that in mind, and if TCW is the pinnacle of Star Wars for you, then

1) You are a very, very lucky person presently

2) We have incredibly different tastes in Star Wars.

I'd love to know what generation you are from, what order you watched the movies, your favorite SW movie etc. in order to understand how such a stark difference in taste, understanding of quality, appreciation of humor can arise.

 

Well, you were critizising the naysayers as "not wanting innovation". But there is no innovation in this Vader model, it is inherently derivative to a high degree.

Guess what? Indiana Jones and The Last Airbender both draw on archetypal characters and plots too! That's why they are archetypal, they are at the base of most stories. What is the important thing is what you do with those archetypes, how you change them up etc. This is why defending rebels by drawing this comparison to ANH falls flat. It's like saying the sky is blue, to which I can answer: "Well, duh, what else is new?"

 

17, order was 6,1,2,3,4,5 fave is ROTS.

Happy now?

 

Well said, Saxman. I echo your curiosity genuinely. I genuinely found TCW very dull and flat on the whole but wiring and perceptions do differ with cause and I enjoy gaining insight regarding them when it does NOT involve name calling and insults to intelligence as unfortunately oft happens for daring be individual.

Thank you, darkspine. I too started with 6.

 

As I said previously, it's possible for Filoni's team to fail when they are being uncreative and bland and to also fail when they strive to be original. IMO, Aladdin Ezra and scowly Vader are examples that prove that they fail on both accounts, considering that they bear the responsibility of being the only canon Star Wars show on TV.

You even acknowledge the liklihood that Ezra's artistic similarties to Aladdin are not coincidence and are meant to spell out to every single dumb audience member that yes, he is a street rat, just like Aladdin. Just as the scowly caricature of Vader dumbs down the fact that he is evil and a meany for the audience, so does making Ezra look like Aladdin. It doesn't treat the audience with respect, whether they are 3 years old or 30 years old.

IMO, making a central character wear goofy-colored mandalorian armor in a canon Star Wars show cheapens Boba Fett as the character we all got to know and love in ESB and ROTJ. The only reason why mandalorian armor is loved is because of that character. For that very reason, having anyone show up in a pink mandalorian outfit, no matter how much the character's story fits that profile, ends up cheapening the iconic character of Boba Fett, at least as much as scowly Vader, and just about as much as having someone show up in a white and pink Vader outfit (like someone posted a picture of earlier in this thread).

No, time and viewing figures WON'T tell who is right, because it is the only choice that we Star Wars fans have. If we want to see any Star Wars canon, then we'd better tune in to Rebels, whether they make Vader scowly, make mandalorians pink, make wookies emaciated, make the main protagonist look like Aladdin, or whether in the finale of Season 2, it's revealed that Darth Maul is really the Inquisitor's cousin twice removed from a cross-species romantic fling and now needs to return to seek vengeance on Ezra and Kanan.