Dialogue of AOTC, good or bad?

Brodie 123

I didn't say you said she was an excellent actress. I said that. I said you should retract your comment that she was "rubbish" because it was a blanket statement about someone you found to be a "good" actress. Having seen her in more complex roles (Yes, I feel safe in saying Chekhov is a tougher run than Lucas) I can safely say she floats back and forth between stage and screen effortlessly, certainly more so than other actresses of her age.

Back on topic:

The dialogue serves its purpose for the most part. It's only when Lucas needs to draw emotional blood out of it that it fails. Other than the scenes on Tatooine, the personal interplay never rises above theatrical and stiff, especially disappoiting given how winsome and appealing these actors have been in other movies. To me, that's the crucial difference between the OT. The personal interplay in those movies were funny, quick, and warm, due, in no small part, that Gloria Katz and Willard Hyuck did a dialogue polish on ANH focused on the Han and Leia dialogue, and Kasdan was given orders to do just the same on ESB. As a writer, Lucas does well with the militaristic, political mumbo jumbo. THAT is on par with the OT. It's the personal stuff he suffers from and, it appears, so does Hales. Personally, I don't think Harrison Ford could have done much better with lines like "I'm haunted by the memory of the kiss that should never have been." Yuck.

 

Foxbatklr...

I think what he said was,"Not like you. Soft." But any way you slice it, it's a grating line.

 

Yup. Brodie, that second paragraph sums it up nicely. George Lucas just doesn't have the skills for the dramatic load placed on the dialogue in the romantic scenes, and it crumbled under the weight.

We can only hope someone other than Hales was invited to help Lucas with the Episode 3 script. Unless Lucas intends to portray the tragedy entirely through action sequences (possible, given the subject matter) he is going to have dramatic scenes that are even more critical to the saga's story arc than those in Episode 2.

And it's crystal clear that Lucas doesn't have the talent to write those scenes himself.

 

This is a Sci-Fi movie. Not Shakespeare. Shakespeare was good for his time. A form of entertainment. I do not care for it one way or the other. It is just mumbo jumbo. I preferr the Sci-fi stuff. Who cares about the dialouge anyway. It fit well with the rest of the SW dialouge. Of course it is not Shakespeare. Why was he even brought into this? Brodie123 you are obvious a Shakespeare fan and that is fine. And it is your opinion to say whatever you want about AOTC. But whatever you say is your opinion. do not make it as Shakespeare is the only way. Do not know why everyone(not this forum but in general) acts as if Shakespeare is THE way of writing, or acting,or story telling. IMHO it is boring. Why as an actor you need to do Shakespeare in order to be look upon as serious. Shakespeare bleh!!!

 

I agree, Ekenobi, I don't know how Shakespeare got pulled into this, and I also am not a big fan of his work, but i do feel that as a film with a script and dialogue that needs to be delivered in a believable manner it should be held up to very high writing standards. I see no reason for it not to be. The mediocre dialogue will translate onto the screen in a mediocre manner, whereas superb dialogue will translate in an interesting and pleasing manner. I feel that AOTC dialogue was one of its low points.

 

hey Darth Sapient, how come you locked my thread! im new here and my first thread was just getting off the ground! Big bully!

*runs away, crying*

 

Quite frankly, I don't really know what constitutes good dialogue or bad dialogue, AND I DON'T CARE!! I enjoyed AOTC and rank it as my favorite SW movie of all time. I'm not a critic, I'm a fan of the series. If the dialogue was SOOOO bad, it sure didn't take away from my enjoyment of the film. Personally, my guess is that too many people here are actually listening to what critics have told them. They should realize, imho, that a critic's OPINION is no better than their own. And personally, I don't think dialogue is that important in a SW movie. Maybe it is in a Lifetime original movie, but not in a SW movie.

 

Could not have said it better myself, SWfan2002!!! Here here!!

 

C'mon there are plenty examples in the OT of "less than steller" dialog. Give me a break! I honestly did not see much of a difference (more OR less) "bad dialog" in AOTC as I saw in previuos installments.


The ONLY thing I WILL say is that the CHEMISTRY between Harrison, Mark, and Carrie, seems stronger than the chemistry between Ewan, Hayden, and Natalie. I will admit to that and admit to the fact that SOME of the delivery from some of the actors in AOTC is certainly worse than some stuff seen in the OT. But to say the dialog has gotten worse? No, I disagree.

For every example of poor dialog you can find in the New Trilogy, I could easily find a similar example in the OT.



I think a big part of the problem is when you compare the OT with the PT one is always comparing MEMORIES (Fond ones at that) to the PRESENT


When you attempt to do this, MEMORIES will ALWAYS seem better!! That's human nature



I GUARENTEE you if ANY of the OT movies were released today, people would have some of the SAME gripes about them (regarding dialog/acting/etc



Just my 2 cents

 

I see the problem here. Everyone seems to be comparing Lucas' work to stuff like Shakespeare that has turned into an art form. Yes, you can read the play of any Shakespearean (sp?) work and enjoy it and appreciate it as art. You can't do the same with Lucas.

You have to see the film where the dialogue, acting, visuals, music, imagination, action, suspense, etc. all come together for one great entertainment experience. We should all quit banging on Lucas for just doing things his way. Its HIS story afterall, and he doesn't HAVE to do it!

I love the dialogue in all Star Wars, not because it beats the pants off of Shakespeare, but because it is true to itself and never pretends to be anything it isn't. It gets the job done, and if you can dig it you can really learn to appreciate it and recognize its relevance.

Just because its an ORIGINAL (gasp!) or NEW method doesn't mean its a bad method, and just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean that others don't. Personally I wouldn't want my Star Wars any other way...

 

The dialogue was horribly stuffy, boring, slow, mind numbing and wooden.

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Did i mention that I loved the movie!

 

C'mon there are plenty examples in the OT of "less than steller" dialog. Give me a break! I honestly did not see much of a difference (more OR less) "bad dialog" in AOTC as I saw in previuos installments.

Honestly, I can't recall any dialogue from the OT that is as bad as people claim they are. Please offer forth a few examples, and we'll see just how bad they are. Right away I'd like to say that the OT dialogue is far less clumsy and more direct than the PT dialogue. From what I've seen so far, PT dialogue is often encumbered by the static of unnecessary prepositions and clauses. Whatever that line is about the "kiss that should have never given" is exhibit A, Your Honor.


For every example of poor dialog you can find in the New Trilogy, I could easily find a similar example in the OT.

This is too good to resist. Let me first offer forth the clumsy "kiss never should have given" line and also the "sand is course" thing. You give me the OT analogies, and I'll tell you exactly how they're better. It will be a day, they say, long remembered. Peter Cushing, please don't look at me like that.


I think a big part of the problem is when you compare the OT with the PT one is always comparing MEMORIES (Fond ones at that) to the PRESENT.

This explanation, heard 'round the world, fails to account for many SW fans that have only recently seen the OT (yes, it's possible), and share similar criticisms about the PT. The thing about memories, is that they're forgotten. When you watch a movie later in life, many years after you first saw it, your opinions rarely remain constant. One of my favorite movies from my youth was Tron, which I recently watched again. It was actually a far better movie than I ever remembered! A movie that I didn't enjoy so much as a child was Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. I saw it last year on the big screen, and I laughed the whole way through at jokes that were way over my head as a youth. The editing and timing of that movie are superb. WarGames has also improved. Can't say the same for Cloak & Dagger.

Of course, the OT remains just as good every time I see it, and I'm a much harsher critic now. ROTJ is the weakest of the lot, but that's still a pretty cool saber fight at the end. SW and ESB have gotten much better actually.

 

I don't think anyone who criticized the dialogue of AOTC has said: "How can you like this crap, it's not even CLOSE to Shakespeare."

Let Shakespeare rest in peace for a bit.

The point is, that, on it's own, AOTC's dialogue fails most of the tests of good writing and convincing spoken language.

"Perhaps with merely your presence this mystery will be revealed."

On its face, that is poor writing. "Revealing a mystery" is not what Padme means to say, since of course, we already know there's a mystery. What we want is for the mystery to be solved, for the person or persons behind the crime to be identified.

Then there are all the extra words thrown in to no positive dramatic effect. Then there's the convoluted word order, as if she had been taking lessons from Yoda. Then there's the passive voice.

If Lucas is going for a "formal" effect, he could have done it without undermining his writing.

"Perhaps your presence alone will help solve this mystery."

"Your presence gives me hope that we will solve this mystery."

"Your presence alone will help us learn who is behind these crimes."

I submit that improving AOTC's dialogue is like shooting fish in a barrel (choose your own analogy here). I can significantly improve any line of AOTC dialogue without thinking about it for more than 25 seconds.

Virtually any sixth grade English teacher in the U.S. could have improved the script with about 4 hours of solid work.

 

You can hate 2001 if you like, even though Lucas admitted the spaceships in that movie inspired the white, burned out look of the spaceships in the OT.

I don't hate 2001, and even if parts of it inspired SW, so what? SW was also inspired by bad 1950s sci fi movies. Does that mean I should regard them with awe?

Courtly love hard to show? Sure. Movies are hard to make. But when you take the task, your job isn't to say, "Oh I didn't do very well because it's so hard." No excuses here, pal. Look at Zeferelli's ROMEO AND JULIET,

Wait a minute, I thought you said it was unfair to compare SW's dialogue with Shakespeare.

or even look at more contemporary movies like AGE OF INNOCENCE and BRAVEHEART, which achieved all the courtly passions without dialogue that was fingernails on the chalkboard.

That's a matter of opinion. I liked neither one of them and thought that the love scenes in AoI, especially, were just as awkward as in AOTC.

Yes, he shafted her on the dialogue. Not on purpose, mind you. But Lucas and Hales seem incapable of writing dialogue for a female character. Even Hayden struggled with silly lines, but he had fewer of them to say, and he had the crucial descent into anger that many people feel makes up for idiotic moments like "I hate sand. It's rough and coarse. Not smooth, like you."

Get the line correct. He said: "I hate sand. It's rough and coarse and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."

And yes, that's a wince-worthy line. But it's written and spoken with utmost sincerity. Hayden pulled it off.

Deal with it, Shelley. Lucas is not a God. He makes mistakes.

Once again, I'm accused of thinking Lucas is a God and doesn't make mistakes. Since when is defending someone akin to thinking they're a God and don't make mistakes? Get some new material, please.

And when I support him by saying he doesn't get ENOUGH credit for the things he does right (story, imagination, effects, visuals, music, etc.) you consider it "funny". Get real.

Because you spend 98% your other time bitching and moaning about his mistakes and act like his triumphs aren't due to him but to the people he worked with.

 

Bad dialog in the OT? Sure here are some examples:


"But I was going into Toshi Station to pick up some power converters"

"Why you overgrown, half witted, scruffy looking NERF HERDER!"

"I'm sure Luke got off that thing before it blew"....(Han) (which is not the bad line, this next one IS

"Yeah, I'm sure of it, I can feel him" (Leia)


"...Like a thousand voices suddenly cried out in terror... I feel something terrible has happened"

"Threepio, you tell that slime ridden piece of filth, he'll get no such pleasure from us"


I have to go at the moment...I thought of all the above from memory, but there are more I can list.


All I'm trying to point out is that there has always been some cheesy dialog in Star Wars movies... You gotta admit that!


And the notion of comparing dialog written by Shakespeare to George Lucas is just ridiculous!

 

About that sand line, I thought it was brilliant. It was thoughtful and ORIGINAL (again, gasp!) and it was said quite well. I love how before Ani says "smooth" he sort of trembles and swallows a bit, hesitating to touch Padme. THAT is acting! He is totally convincing as a young man driven by lust and hormones. I believe that most people who don't like the dialogue simply don't agree with it. Most criticisms of the PT I have heard are that some people just didn't like it, nothing wrong with the quality, they just didn't like the subject matter. Chew on that a while .

 

Excellent point!

What Darth_SMITTIUS said!!!

 

TokyoXtreme,

Here's one for you

"I know... Somehow... I've always known..."
Leia, ROTJ.

 

Ewan Guinness:

"The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet!"

I agree, I loved this line. The first time I heard it I even loved the sort of condescending tone in James Earl Jones' voice. He says "Jedi" with a little bit of disgust.

Some art is visual, some art is audio, and some art is written. Filmmaking includes all three of these forms of art, and to say that it can only be held to the standard of one type is, IMO, completely ludicrous.

I agree because, in my opinion, my ears have been more impressed with the OT dialogue than the PT. This isn't some "nostalgia" thing or some "rose-colored glasses" thing. I think it's a simple quality thing. You guys think we'd still be watching the OT films to this very day if it was so crippled with the awful dialogue you guys are saying? I thought Yoda's ESB pearls of wisdom were classic.

jabba:
The attempt to give the AOTC prose a lilting, archaic quality was intentionally, and markedly different from the dialogue of the OT, and it failed its intended purpose. All it accomplished, ultimately, was to tarnish the dramatic impact of the dialogue, make it halting and incoherent, and impose another barrier between the characters and the audience, preventing them from connecting emotionally.

I'm with jabba. Others dont have to agree with this, but I personally felt the "bad" dialogue in the PT wasn't so much in the small throwaway lines like "Yippee" or the "This is SO wizard..", but more in the important chunks of plot. The central story is plagued and bogged down with the most boring, convoluted lines. That's what bothers me. It's boring, and not to mention it may likely turn off casual viewers since they have enough trouble understanding the complex plot as it is.

Someone perfectly described ANH's script as "lean and sharp." I wholeheartedly agree. I couldn't imagine paring that script or changing it around much. But for TPM or AOTC, I could easily run a huge laundry list of lines that should be changed or thrown away. Not out of malice, but because I think the many lines simply suck. Would I miss that "You are in my soul" speech? Would I really miss Natalie's thrilling delivery of "We used to go there to swim.." (Or whatever the heck she mumbled) Would I miss these amatuerish lines. Nah.

As for the OT, it may have it's share of cheesy lines (which I think are still more fun to hear regardless), but at least it's central plot isn't written and delivered like we're watching C-SPAN here. Like in ROTJ, the Endor mission briefing scene with Mon Mothma and Mon Calamari. That scene was clear and to the point. We understood the mission, and thats all we needed. I wonder if that scene were written today there would be more added (and useless) adjectives to make them sound more "intellectual" and more weighty technical jargon added that would drag that scene down into another C-SPAN style scene.

Oh yeah, the Corsucant scenes on Tatooine (the Jedi Council moments) = snore. I never watch these scenes anymore. It's an example (in my opinion) of a deadly combination of cardboard acting and convoluted dialogue. And unfortunately, the badly acted/badly written moments in TPM that I detested the most still crept back into AOTC. It's not as rampant, but it sure sucks the life and fun out of the film.

 

"People have fallen in love with Star Wars because it is down to earth and doesn't plague itself with trying to have good acting or dialogue."

I was unaware that good acting and/or dialogue constituted a plague of some kind.

 

"Quite frankly, I don't really know what constitutes good dialogue or bad dialogue, AND I DON'T CARE!!"-SWFan2002

Frankly, I must admit to being like this myself. I admit that some of the dialogue I could have done without in AOTC, that it indeed seemed lackluster compared to the other four films, and if that is Hale's doing then I hope we only have Lucas for Ep3 and he doesn't write any love scenes, or at least scenes like the fireplace scene.

I feel very sorry for anyone who has studied film as it obviously reveals the faults in Star Wars. But let me tell you this. I have seen many a "good" movie in my day from Citizen Kane, to Casablanca, to Spartacus, to E.T. (and yes that was the special edition)... etc. You may not like those films, it really doesn't matter to me for I can appreciate those films for what they are and what they are trying to accomplish. I can do the same with Star Wars as I know what it is trying to accomplish as well.

I refuse to quote OT lines and try to make them balance out the bad lines in AOTC. Why? Because in 5 years I will no longer have much of a problem with the lines in AOTC as I do right now. Just like the little things in the OT that bothered me, I will simply get used to those same things in AOTC.

One of the unhappy results of discussing things such as dialogue and acting in AOTC recently, in this forum, is that I have been quite harsh on other films trying to find their faults as well to, dare I say it, boost SW. All throughout "Windtalkers" I kept on thinking to myself, "Sheesh, Nicolas Cage has bad lines, sheesh John Woo's direction style sucks, sheesh the acting is poor in this film." I should have been enjoying the film, not overanalyzing it or being overly critical of it. I guess you can say, that for this reason, you won't see me in this thread again and I'm going to stick to "favorite vehicle threads" or "fett family discussion threads" because Star Wars is meant to be fun, and if it is no longer fun for me, why am I even posting on this board? And that, my friends, is why I can't understand the mind of a basher.

Sorry for the rant. Exeunt Luke_Clone.

 

"And that, my friends, is why I can't understand the mind of a basher."

I think AOTC had its ups and downs (I'm a little harsher on TPM), but personally, the reason I'm here is that discussing a film with as many merits and flaws as this one helps me to get a clearer picture of what works, what doesn't, and why. You seem to have studied film a bit yourself, so I'm sure you can relate.

 

"The Force is with you young Skywalker, but you are not a Jedi yet!"

Good glorious God, that is the best line in the whole trilogy, and this is my absolute favorite shot in all of the Star Wars. Luke stumbles into what appears to be the very pit of hell itself, and who should he find there but Darth Vader, Lord of the Sith, looking completely evil and awesome surrounded by swirling yellow lights and smoke. This is the bar that all future SW moments would be measured against.

And don't forget that Vader takes a few breaths after the word "Skywalker". WOW.

 

Some of it's ok, but mostly, the dialogue in AOTC is teh suck.

Good for pantsing, however.

 

Luke_Clone:

All throughout "Windtalkers" I kept on thinking to myself, "Sheesh, Nicolas Cage has bad lines, sheesh John Woo's direction style sucks, sheesh the acting is poor in this film." I should have been enjoying the film, not overanalyzing it or being overly critical of it.

You have every right to analyze it. To simply let visuals wash over you without thinking about anything, we'd might as well be robots. All the challenging, complex films out there wouldn't be necessary. Art (in its many beautiful forms) would wither away, unneeded and uncared for, because we became complacent with simplistic, vacuous, shallow entertainment. A painting of an old tree, bent under a gloomy sky, with its bare branches stripped naked by the harsh wind....without penetrating these images with analysis, this would simply be a painting of a tree, and we'd miss the genuine meaning that this is really a pure symbolic image of old age and desolation, of anguish and melancholy, of life ending in death.

Oh yes, you and I have every right to analyze. We shouldn't feel bad about it. It's the film that has to responsibility to hold up. Of course, we don't want to have unrealistic expectations and OVER-analyze everything.

Btw, Windtalkers looks horrible. Trailers are supoosed to make you excited, but the trailer for Windtalkers made me want to stay home badly. I'm of the opinion that John Woo's talent, sadly, has declined bit by bit the moment his films stepped onto American soil. He has more freedom, money, and resources than he ever did but his latest films have lacked the potent thrill, flux, and energy of his earlier work.

Hey, that sounds like George Lucas! Lighten up, I was kidding. Well, sort of.