Did Darth Plagueis create Anakin Skywalker?

Phoenix, The "Will of the Force" is mentioned many times in both the prequels (Qui Gon) and the OT.

It seems to my understanding, that Qui Gon believed the Jedi should follow this natural will of the Force. I think this is one of the things that Yoda and Obi Wan learn from Qui Gon.

I also believe that this is the power that Obi Wan and Yoda attain when they pass into the spirit world, they acn communicate effectively with both sides. THerefore they can directly communicate the will of the Force to those mortal Jedi still around. I think this is effectively what is happening when Obi Wan suggests that Yoda train Luke, Yoda is unconvinvced, but he listens to the wisdom of Obi Wan, who can communicate effectively with all aspects of the Force and he is telling Yoda that training Luke now, is the will of the Force.

The Sith fight against the will of the Force, the darkside is the opposite, it is commanding the Force and reshaping its will to what you want and desire yourself.

 

I think Darth Plagueis creates Palpatine using the midi-chlorians. I also think that Anakin is the original Skywalker reincarnated in order to kill him. It says in the Jedi order databank that one (if not the first) Jedi was a holy man called "The Skywalker" maybe Shmi was a distant relative or something.

 

Theres just one thing about this that does'nt make sence. If Plagus was real, and he could cheat death, and he tought everything he knows to his apprentice before his apprentice killed him (as palps tells anakin) . . . for palps to have been his apprentice he would know the secret of preventing death, instead of saying to anakin a little later . .

"only one ever learned to do this, and i know if we work together we can uncover the secrets"

Palps obviously was'nt plagus's apprentice, if indeed plagus actually existed and was'nt just a clever creation made up of hopeful stories to lure anakin to the dark side.

The wasy i see it theres a few simple answers.

1) Plagus did exist, he was a sith lord killed by his apprentice, and thats all. Palps adds the rest to lure anakin in with fiction and promise of saving his love.

2) if the story is indeed true, Palps was not this apprentice, otherwise he would know the secrets of cheating death as quoted by palps "he taught his apprentice everything he knew"

and 3) Palps knows that a jedi is the only one who can live on in the force through love and self sacrifice after death. He has senced qui-gone and knows he did not die (as such) and wants to reach this level of force understanding in life rather than death. He uses this knowledge to tempt anakin, stating "only one has ever achived this" . . meaning the disturbance in the force he has senced since yoda began communicating with qui gone.


These, to me, seem like the most logical answers to this puzzle.

 

Darthfara, I like that idea. It is by far the best, and most reasonable explaination. Props. =D

 

Why does everyone think Palps can't possibly have the power to cheat death because he doesn't really help Ani with Padme? It's in Palps' best interests for her do be dead...so why would he save/reserect/whatever? She is worth nothing to him alive and everything to him dead. If Palps taut Ani how to save Padme he would in turn be useless for Ani

 

I'ts probably left open that way just in case of an episodes 7,8, and 9. You do see Palpatine's soul or something release from the pit when he is tossed in. Still, after all that has transpired, it would demean the heroes struggles and efforts to reroot galactic problems after such a great victory.

 

Even if we assume (for some reason) that your Maul time is correct, there's no reason that Sidious couldn't train Maul while Plageius was still alive.

That's not allowed. Since Darth Bane, only when you become the master can you take on an apprentice. I think his theory and timeline are correct. If you read the books, Sidious trained Maul since Maul was a child. That means Sidious was already the master many, many years before Anakin was born. Hence, Plagueis couldn't have been alive. I was suprised this thread was created since, as was already mentioned, the timeline doesn't allow a "Plagueis creation of Anakin" to make sense.

 

see an issue with your timeline, but that's it. The movies make no mention of when Plageius died, or when Maul was trained.

Even if we assume (for some reason) that your Maul time is correct, there's no reason that Sidious couldn't train Maul while Plageius was still alive


It's called the rule of two, DS615. Something you fail to understand. There can be no more than two Sith at one time. If Maul joins in before Plagueis dies, it breaks the rule. And Maul has to join 10-15 years before Anakin is born.

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[i]The day after this is done, Sidious kills Plagueis and keeps tabs on the various girl-incubator's lives, until he can see far enough ahead to trigger one fertilised woman to come to term. Sidious 'knows' the conditions the child will grow up under and can use this to help turn the child to evil.[/i]

[b]Sentinel75[/b], read my response to [b]DS615[/b]. If the Sith were smart, why not train Anakin from birth?

 

I believe that either Darth Plagueis or Darth Sidious / Palpatine created Anakin.

 

Okay...I figure there's TWO ways to look at the whole debate on Anakin's conception. And in the end...they both pretty much equal the same thing.
1)Sideious/Palpatine is just downright lying. We know that he has been grooming Anakin for this position since THE PHANTOM MENACE, gaining the boys trust. In fact Anakin trusts him SO much that he told Palpatine about his little trip to psycho land after his mother died. We ALSO know that Palpatine lies, cheats and decieves to get what he wants. This is the Sith way. And remember, George has more than once compared Sideous to the devil..who is the PRINCE OF LIES. So its not out of the realm of possibility for Palpatine to throw some disinformation Anakin's way just to confuse him and maybe even strengthen their sudo-father/son bond. So, in the end the FORCE created Anakin in an attempt to balance the incredible darkside power of THE EMPEROR, and THE EMPEROR was just trying to turn Anakin before he fulfilled the prophecy and destroyed the Sith. I give this theory 50/50 chance of being true.
2)Plageuis DID create Anakin. I say Plageuis cause Sideous came right out and SAYS he doesnt know how to create life after he turns Anakin. So if Plageuis DID create Anakin, one possible way to look at it is that while Plageuis DID create Anakin, the force was influencing his actions a bit. So, if you look at it that way, Plageuis DID create Anakin, but only at the will of the force. This explanation would satisfy BOTH theories and goes along with what little info GEORGE LUCAS has given up on this subject. The hard part to swallow of course is why would they leave this boy to rot on some desert planet where he could die at eithier his Masters whim or in a PODRACE? And I dont buy the whole Palpatine planned everything out to the last detail bit. I admit he knows alot and can forsee the future but not everthing is preordained. He just manipulates the odds in his favor but doesnt know EXACTLY how the future will unfold. He is not a GOD. I give this theory a 50/50 chance.

So for me ...eithier way...the force created Anakin. George has said this much. What it boils down to is...was it done with or without the involment of the SITH?

Which one I go with depends on my mood any given day....but I lean toward the whole Sideious lying theory most.

 

I believe that either Darth Plagueis or Darth Sidious / Palpatine created Anakin.

You obviously haven't read any of my arguments. Especially the one that was right above you.

 

Palpatine's claims:

-Saying Darth Plaguis could make life by influencing midichlorians gives palps no real advantage, so we must assume it is true

-Plaguis preserving life can be assumed from the first point, but, as a separate point, this is how palps controls ani, so it could be true or false.

-Palps claim to have that secret was more likely a lie to control ani. When time comes to share it, he falls back to "we can discover it together", again controlling ani. After this, ani almost immediately plans overthrowing palps (when talking to Padme, the next opportunity being with Luke in the OT).

Now, discussing this from the viewpoint that only the movies are canon, logic dictates that if 1) ONLY plaguis could alter midichlorians to create life, and 2) ONLY ani is concieved without a father, and 3) Immaculate conception is not defined as occuring any other way, then the most likely explanation would be that plaguis created ani.

This assumes that palps does not know the secret. The movie appears to portray him as not undefeatable, but simply in such an advantageous position and the jedi in such a bad position that he cannot lose. His fight against Yoda could hardly be described as one-sided. This suggests that he is not likely powerful enough to do something so drastic as create ani.

Further, the movies do not satisfy a rationale for palps making a force using boy on tatooine. As Darth Sidious, in AOTC, he appears annoyed that jedi have been dispatched to Naboo. This does not give much room for an interpretation that he knew the jedi would find the boy.

Assuming that plaguis was, as plaps says, the only one with that power, plaguis would be a powerful sith indeed. One would assume he could see his death coming. To avoid it, he might even seek a new apprentice that could kill and take the place of the old one, and, if such an apprentice is not available, plaguis could always make one as powerful as needed. Which would be ironic- ani created to kill the sith he eventually kills, but for completely different reasons. This would explain the symettry between plaguis' need to preserve those who he loved (breaking from canon and using the book here) and Ani's.

Regardless, the most likely explanation is plaguis created Ani, assuming the info at hand is accurate. If Palps is lying, anything could be true, since we don't know which way his lies fall. My personal opinion is that palps is not as powerful as he is sly. He is careful to befriend ani, then reveal himself to ani only when ani cannot kill him without watching padme die, and, ultimately, encasing the disfigured and diminished Vader and using him as a leashed dog, to paraphrase Leia. The movies do show Vader as politically naive, or, more appropriately, politiaclly brutish. Such men are easily controlled by those with political savvy. Since I see Palps this way, I cannot see him powerful enough to create life. He is not creative, he is illussiory, everything about him is false, and so I can't see him creating anything as real as Anakin.

 

Saying Darth Plaguis could make life by influencing midichlorians gives palps no real advantage, so we must assume it is true

Sure it does. It's a great segueway (sp) into cheating death. If you could create life, then you can cheat death.

 

Maul only has to join 15 years before Ani is born if one considers the timeline as valid. If one only considers the movies as canon, Ani is a sith half an hour and already has great power. Maul is, in the end, a sith apprentice who could not beat a jedi padawan in a seriously disadvantageous position.

 

Okay, while I think the midichlorian comment is more likely true, it could be false. However, if it is, the story of Darth Plaguis ceases to be tragic. So there must be some truth, simply because without that truth, we have no explanation for the reverie that palps visibly displays at the retelling of it.

 

I cant believe this topic is still being discussed. Anyone realise that everything Palpatine said was a lie?? Read the all the interviews

 

The tragedy is that he could cheat death for others, but not for himself. Hence the tragedy. Palpatine said so.

 

When anakin first knelt before Palps (after helping in Mace's demise) Palps told him that "to cheat death is something that only one has achieved. But, I know that if we work together, we can discover this secret". Palps told him the truth. darth Plageuis knew how to achieve this. he simply held back the info. That Palps killed Plageuis before discovering how. Had Padme not died (mainly at Vader's hand) and Vader not been F'd up by Obi, they probably would've discovered the secret.

 

Okay..I think, after reading other people theories and adding a dash or two of my own, I have come up with THEORY that satisfies me..if no one else.

Darth Plageuis is one hell of a powerful Sith lord. He has an apprentice by the name of Darth Sideous. As with all other Sith throughout History, they are constantly plotting against one another. To his apprentice, Plageuis has passed on nearly ALL of his secrets save maybe one. Using his mastery of the Darkside Plageuis manipulates the midi-chlorians to create a SuperSith, and keeps the existence of this SUPERSITH a secret from his apprentice. Perhaps he even set up Shmi(pregnant with Anakin)somwhere where he could be sure she and his SUPERSITH could be kept an eye on. And what better way than making her a slave, so she will never be able to wonder far from where she is supposed to be? At one point, Sideious decides to overthrow his master and murders Plageuis in his sleep. Then Sideious some how becomes AWARE of the creation of this SUPERSITH but not his identity or location.

So Palpatine begins his plot to overthrow the Republic and take revenge upon the Jedi, all the while knowing, and wondering, just what happened to that little Sith Bastard Plageuis created.

Now, without Plageuis to watch over her, Shmi wanders around the Outer Rim, being passed from Slave owner to Slave owner, and to eventually end of up on Tatooine.

A few years later, Qui-gon Ginn stumbles upon this boy by accident. The boys conception and unusually high midi count point to him "being the one who will bring balance to the force" and was concieved by the Midi-chlorians.

He brings the boy back to Coruscant and when Palpatine see's his exceptional abilitis he KNOWS this is the missing SUPERSITH Plaguies created and decides he will "watch his career with much interest"

So I am force to conclude that Anakin WAS created by the Sith but by Plageuis, NOT Sideiouis. Sideious admits that power was out of his grasp.

And this theory does NOTHING to discount the "Balance of the force" prophecy because all the prophecy says is...

1)The Chosen one will be concieved by the midichlorians. Which he was....but at the behest of Plageuis.

2)The Chosen one will bring Balance to the force..which he does. He just takes awhile to do it and murders a bunch of innocent people in the meantime.

Now in answer to those who feel the whole immaculate conception theory of Anakin's creation is the truth...then your right. In part.

Anakin's birth was Imaculate. He had no Father. You cant really even think of Plageuis as Anakins father..more like some mad scientist who create him in a lab..like Frankestien. Hence, I think, Darth Vader walking Frankenstien like at the end of the movie.

So Anakin was concieved by the force. He was DESTINED to bring balance. It just happened in a way none of use expected but in a way that I think you have to give credence to.

You cant watch the movie intelligently and not come away with this or some similiar conclusion.

Trust me...I denied it at first and have come to see the truth, the beauty and the irony of it all.

You see, the Sith were an instrument of their own demise.

And THIS...WAS THE WILL OF THE FORCE.

Nothing happens by accident.

Except Jar Jar Binks.....HIS father really should have used a raincoat THAT night.

 

Cant anyone accept the truth that Anakin was created by the force? Everything Palpatine told anakin was a lie, even Ian said it himself in a recent interview

 

Show me WHERE you got this information and I will take it into consideration.

But dont just throw around these things without at least a quote or two.

AND KEEP IN MIND...JUST BECAUSE PLAGEIUS MAY HAVE CREATED ANAKIN THAT DOESNT MEAN IT WASNT THE WILL OF THE FORCE.

 

I first thought Sidious created Anakin back when I first saw Phantom Menace. The clue I was following was Aurra Sing. I read that Lucas had rushed to include Aurra Sing into that podrace shot last minute and I always wondered why. Why would Lucas make such a fuss to include a 5 second shot of a Jedi bounty hunter in TPM?

My best argument for that was that Sidious raped Shmi Skywalker either physically or through the Force, and used Sith Sorcery to make Anakin so strong in the Force. Then he sent Aurra Sing to keep an eye on his prodigal son. She would be the perfect person for the job. Since Anakin is basically a Force anomaly, she could easily use the Force to find and keep an eye on him. Being a Jedi bounty hunter she's already skilled at tracking and hunting Jedi, so tracking a young Jedi hopefull would be a piece of cake.

The books say otherwise, but the books on Aurra Sing are based solely on these 5 seconds too. I was hoping Lucas would expand on this role in the other films but alas he never did. We're just left to ponder why that 5 second shot was so important. It didn't add anything to the scene and if you blink you miss her. But if she was meant to be Sidious's watchdog so to speak, then it would at least make a bit more sense.

Revenge of the Sith does shed a little light on this and at least add's more credibility to my Sidious as Father theory. Although I guess we'll always debate whether Anakin was born of the Force or Sidious or Plagues. Unless of course Lucas comes right out and says exactly what happend. And don't give me that 'He said it was the Force' crap, because if Plagues or Sidious used Sith Sorcery to create Anakin, then the tool they used is 'The Force' so it still qualifies as correct by Lucas, from a certain point of view.

 

Oh yeah, for all you people that are so convinced that Sith lie so everything he said was a lie, you are being just as blind as the Jedi in AOTC.

I believe that Dooku, a DARK LORD OF THE SITH, told Obi-Wan Kenobi during his bondage the complete truth behind the corruption of the senate and of Sidious's intentions. But the Jedi didn't believe it since they thought lies and deceit are the ways of the Sith.

So the precedence for Sidious to be telling the truth is in the previous film. The truth may just be so absurd that no one believes it and that is the Sith's true intentions.

 

Show me WHERE you got this information and I will take it into consideration.

But dont just throw around these things without at least a quote or two.

Read the recent Star Wars magazine. LIES

 

IMO, I doubt the power to create life/cheat death ever existed.
It is just a ruse.
The Sith are power hungry.
The power to create life is the ultimate power - for me, the saga only really has a moral if the Sith never had or will have that power.

Anakin is not created by the Sith, Darth Vader is.

I thought that was a key theme - Join the Sith and take the easy path. You will get instant rewards. But eventually, the guilding will rub off on your hands. It is a hollow promise of power.

The flipside of the coin:
QGJ: "Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith."
YODA: "Eternal consciousness."
QGJ: "The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

The tragedy of Darth Plagueis works on many levels.
But I see it as a total fabrication (maybe even one that Sidious himself was fooled by many years ago - he is still searching for "the power").

The punchline is that Sidious does create a life, in a fashion.
His Frankenstien like creation - Darth Vader.
Like all mad scientists, he gets burned - you cannot play God and get away with it in the movies.
Vader has no soul - that is something you cannot replicate - he is just a jumble of wires and cybernetic parts.
An empty shell.
Housing the dormant soul of Anakin Skywalker.

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Sidious the Wise?:
He became so powerful... the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he had underestimated the true power of the human spirit, and his apprentice killed him to save his own son. Sidious never saw it coming. It's ironic he could save others from death, but not himself.