PT Did Mace Windu really defeat Palpatine?

I'm not an expert regarding Vapaad, but from what I've heard, Mace's style wouldn't have worked against Darth Tyranus or Darth Vader. Tyranus favored elegance, and Vader went into battle like a cold machine, and neither of them would had enough rage or darkness for Mace to work against like Sidious did. However, I believe Sidious threw in the fight. He wasn't using the Force to do anything except enhance his agility and acrobatics, and he wasn't using it against Mace until after he had been disarmed. I think that he wanted to look like a victim, since he had already tempted Anakin and foresaw his arrival.

As to the prophecy, that's an interesting theory about him thinking of Anakin that way. I never thought of that way. It would go with his Sith philosophy. And that is true. Anakin/Vader always sided with those who trusted him, which Sidious did for his own reasons in ROTS, and Luke later did that for altruistic reasons in ROTJ.

 

You know I wonder WHY Palpatine didn't try to apply further Dark Side Force Powers that Darth Plagueis for the matter in the EU and novel had taught and done ... I mean like a Force Rage, Force Scream or incredibly Powerful Bursts of Force Lightning that are much much tougher to block with a Lightsaber ...

 

Mace Windu really defeated Palpatine.
Strongest lightsaber fighter was not Master Yoda,was Mace Windu.
Master Yoda was strongest using the Force,not strongest duelist.
Master Yoda had a very high concentration of Midi-chlorians,but what that have to do
with how good lightsaber user he was?
Anakin had highest concentration of Midi-chlorians,but he was not strongest Force user,
neither strongest lightsaber user. The midi-chlorian count only gave the raw power.
It is more than clear that Mace Windu is also using the dark side,but he is not falling to the
dark side.
I do not know things from extended universe and what people are speculating,
that Palpatine had a very high count of Midi-Chlorians.
Palpatine was arrogant and was getting so absorbed to the dark side,which made him
loosing attention to other things,than his hatred,desire for power and so on.
Look at what Anakin says about Obi-Wan:
""Obi-Wan is a great mentor; as wise as Master Yoda, and as powerful as Master Windu."

So strongest in battle was Master Windu ,not Master Yoda.
Palpatine was very arrogant and never knew how powerful Mace Windu was.
He can blasts with force lightning the sword from Master Yoda hand,since Master Yoda is caught
unprepared. Master Yoda can stop with bare hands the force lightning of Sidious.
Master Yoda do not runs because Sidious was beating him,but because he is too close to fell to the dark side.
If you watch with attention,when Master Yoda stops with his bare hands the force lightning,his eyes are starting to glowing yellow.
Why? Master Yoda was very attached to the Jedis,to the Jedi temple,to the padwans so he starts to deeply hate Sidious.
Remember what Yoda is saying: "A Jedi only use Force for defense,never for attack".
The Dark Force cave,from Dagobah, I guess is the place where Master Yoda stood and meditate and get over the loose
of his fellow Jedis and so on.This is why is so filled with negativity,that cave.
I care about what is said in the official movies and about images from the official Star Wars movies series.

 

Palpatine defeats and kills windu along with 3 Jedi masters in the 1 battle. An unarmed Palpatine kills an un-armed windu. Palpatine had to keep windu alive long enough for Anakin to chose his own fate, as is evident in the story telling in the lead up. Yoda is more powerful than windu in every aspect of the force as he was able to survive a fight with Palpatine and absorb lightning with one hand. A one handed windu is instantly and easily killed by Palpatines lightning after windu no longer needs to be kept alive. Yoda survives 1v1 against Palptine. windu and 3 Jedi masters are defeated and killed by palpatine 4v1. Palpatine is by far the strongest followed by Yoda then windu somewhere amongst the rest. As is shown in the movie of course

 

Well Palpatine was unarmed but that happened because Mace did disarmed him.
And Mace Windu had his right arm cowardly severed by Anakin Skywalker.
Watch more careful ,Palpatine force lightning is instantly throwing Master Yoda away,same with Luke Skywalker in "Return of the Jedi".
But Palpatine needs to use a significant time the force lightning on Mace to throw him on the window.
And I guess Master Yoda is partially on the dark side when be blocks the force lightning with his bared hands,in the fight with Palpatine.
Please watch with attention,Lucas is showing the expression on Yoda face and also,Yoda eyes.
Yoda eyes are having yellow nuance there and his face do not show serenity at all,as a Master of the light side of the force should be.
Anakin Skywalker dies from 2-3 rays of force lightning that hits him,from Palpatine,in Return of the Jedi.
Mace Windu is extremely powerful but he lacks wisdom. He trusts Anakin Skywalker and this proves to be his doom.

EDIT:
Why do you think Lucas shows very clear the eyes of Yoda,when Yoda is blocking with his bare hands the lightning from Palpatine ? Also the expression on Yoda face?
Look more carefully first Yoda is afraid and Sidious is almost overpowering him with force lightning.
Remember what Yoda tells,fear is the path to the dark side.
After Yoda is afraid,he is angered,is clear he is filed with anger.
His powerful anger made him switch to the dark side and he is suddenly becomes extremely
powerful;
And Yoda anger makes him reflect the force lightning of Sidious back towards Sidious,with ease.
But Yoda neglects the fact he stays on the edge and he can fall down.
Neglecting defense ,for offense is clearly an attribute of dark jedis/sith lords ,not of a Jedi Master with 900 years experience,in using the force.
As for Mace,he is clearly cocky towards the end of the fight with Palpatine,he intentionally breaks the glass of the window with his lightsaber. He does that (break the glass) to humiliate Sidious,because it was clear he was already winning.
He is hitting Sidious with his foot in the head,just to humiliate Sidious more. Because he could have killed Sidious with his lightsaber,is clear Mace is on top of the things and Sidious is running from him.

 

Did you notice in the movie, windu wasn't even able to land a death blow on Palps while Palps was fighting 4 JEDI MASTERS at one time??? Palps fought windu with a lightsabre to keep windu alive long enough for Anakin to show up and make the decision to turn to the dark side. The lead up scenes in the film that Lucas created show Palps manipulating Anakin to turn to the darkside. Palps, easily would have killed windu without a lightsabre battle, If he didn't need Anakin, windu probably would've been the 1st of the 4 JEDI MASTERS killed. As the movie shows, Palp swas faking all along. Right before windu lost his hand, windu lifted his lightsabre up above his own head - Palps easily could've killed windu with lightning right there. But he didn't because he knew that Anakin had already made the choice to turn to the darkside. windu was nothing more than a puppet and palps was pulling all the right strings.

 

Well,Sidious kills fast 3 Jedi Masters,because he uses the surprise,in his advantage.
Killing Palpatine was not as even Anakin says,a Jedi way of acting.
The Jedi Masters came there to arrest Sidious,not to kill him.
Mace Windu only decides to kill Palpatine/Sidious after seeing how Sidious is twisting the truth,
not because Sidious uses force lightning.
He could have killed Sidious before,but he did not knew the way in which Sidious wanted to present
the things to the Senate.
First,Mace tells Sidious,that Sidious is under arrest.
After this,Mace Windu realizes Sidious/Palpatine will present the attempt of the 4 Jedi Masters to arrest him
as a try of the Jedi Order to take the power.
" Sidious : I told you it would come to this. I was right! The Jedi are taking over!!"
So Mace says:
"He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive!"

Mace is lacked of wisdom,he should have went to the Senate and present there,what he was thinking
about Sidious/Palpatine.
The way in which Mace decides to act brings the doom of the Jedi order.
So,the raw power in battle of the Jedi/Sith Lords was not the most important thing,neither
the ability to use the force,was most important thing,neither the midichlorian count.
Sidious was more cunning than all,he is neither too strong in battle,neither extremely strong with the force.
Sidious kills Darth Plagueis ,while Darth Plagueis sleeps,because Sidious would have been no match
in a fight against Darth Plagueis.
Obi Wan Kenobi is also extremely cunning,this is how he kills:
-Darth Maul
-General Griveous
-cripples Anakin Skywalker seriously.

Yoda is a very powerful force user,while Mace is most strong in battle,but none of them
is so cunning as Obi-Wan is.
But Obi Wan was not strong enough in battle,to be able to deal with even Dooku using of Force abilities.

 

Mace and the 3 other Jedi masters confronted palps with their sabres ignited. They were ready for battle.
Palps told all 4 Jedi masters they had committed treason. In doing so the Jedi should have realised death was going to be their punishment.
It was no surprise attack by Palps, he was the other side of the room when he pulled out his lightsabre.
There were 4 Jedi masters against 1 sith.... Think about that for a moment............................. All 4 were killed by palps, which makes him more powerful than those 4 Jedi masters combined.
Yoda survives a battle against palps (only just, because he ran away). This makes Yoda more powerful in every aspect than windu.
The Jedi reflexes and ability to foresee events failed them on this occasion.
Palps is much more powerful than people say. All of the events that happened in ROTS, transpired according to Palps design. He battled 5 Jedi masters = 4 Dead Jedi masters and Yoda fleeing the fight Yoda was losing.
Palps also turned the prophesied chosen one into his new Sith apprentice.
Palps Didn't even have to fight windu with a lightsabre. He could have easily and quickly killed him with lightning. But he needed windu alive long enough for Anakin to arrive on the scene and make the turn to the darkside. windu was already defeated before the battle began. He just didn't know it yet

 

Palpatine was good in battle,but very likely he was not at the level of Count Dooku.
Palpatine was stronger with the force.In the use of the Force,
Sidious is extremely powerful,that is true.
However,Darth Plagueis was even more powerful in using the Force.
And according to wookipedia,were Sith Lords that were much more powerful,
in using the force,than Darth Sidious.
But,for a fight,the ability to use the light saber is much more important,
than the ability to use the Force.
This is how Count Dooku loose to Anakin,while Anakin abilities to use
the force were average,at best,in that moment.
The Jedi Masters there had their swords ignited but were not expecting for Palpatine to go attack them.
The only Jedi master that was expecting for Palpatine to attack was Mace Windu.
The main skill of Sidious was that he was very cunning,he was great at deceiving .
Sidious is deceiving Anakin,making Anakin think that Padme was also a traitor.
Master Yoda had advised Mace to not act like Mace did,to go take the power from
Palpatine hands,by force.
So,in direct fight,where speed and other not so brainy abilities were needed,
Mace is most powerful fighter.
Here is a problem,that a dark side user manages to outsmart Master Yoda
and whole Jedi Council.
But this happens because of the arrogance of Master Yoda and other members.
Now,arrogance was normally to be found at Sith Lords,but Jedis and especially
Jedi Masters should have been extremely humble.
Not the case with Master Yoda,neither with Mace.
Obi Wan is humble and he exploits the arrogance of Anakin Skywalker
and Darth Maul to kill Maul and seriously cripple Anakin.
Look at the fight between Yoda and Sidious,why is Sidious taking the
higher ground?
Cause Sidious is afraid of Yoda.
Were not Jedis trained to know that Sith Lords were extremely arrogant?
And that a Jedi should exploit the arrogance of Sith Lords?
But in the fight between the 4 Jedi Masters and Sidious,is Sidious who exploits
the arrogance of Mace and the other 3 Jedi Masters.
Look how Sidious loose to a much weaker Jedi,against Luke Skywalker.
This happens because Luke Skywalker actually respects much more the Jedi teachings,
than Yoda or Mace did.
Luke Skywalker have more brains and heart,even if his abilities to fight with the lightsaber,
are not by far closed to Mace Windu,neither his abilities to use the Force are closed to Master Yoda.
Sidious was also extremly arrogant and he never thought Darth Vader could turn back to the light side.
So actually is not Sidious that is so powerful but Yoda and Mace who are much more arrogant,
than a Jedi Master should be.This arrogance makes Yoda and Mace to loose against Sidious.

 

The sith are far more powerful in the force and in battle than the Jedi were. How else could a Sith Lord and his apprentice bring down an entire Jedi Order??? It's no coincidence that it took a Sith lord (Vader) to destroy the sith.

 

The argument on whether Mace could really take on Palpatine in an unbridled fight is pretty muddied by the circumstances of their encounter in ROTS.
Palpatine clearly knew Anakin was coming, and while Sidious was probably dueling at full-strength (albeit defensively) to hold Mace off until Anakin arrived, he was clearly confident that Anakin would stop Mace's death blow, or he wouldn't have held back on more lightning in the first place. It seems strongly (logically) implied that Anakin's intervention was just one of those things that Palpatine clearly foresaw. He needed Anakin to cross a point and choose, it is something he was willing to risk holding back with Mace for.

 

The Siths are very good,because there are only 2.
If the apprentice is not good enough,he will die when his master send him to execute killings.
If the apprentice is strong enough with the dark side,he will kill his master.
However,Sidious was not strong enough with the dark side to kill Plagueis.
He gave a lot of wine to Plagueis,until Plagueis fall asleep and after,Sidious killed Plagueis.
So Sidious killed Plagueis being very cunning,not in a battle.
How people here know that Sidious did not realized that he was not match for Mace and he
deceived Anakin to make Anakin help him ?
He made Anakin to believe that Anakin will have a word to say in leading the Universe;
Remember what is saying to Anakin: "I know what’s been troubling you... Listen to me.
Don't continue to be a pawn of the Jedi Council!
Ever since I've known you, you've been searching for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi..
a life of significance, of conscience."
And before:
"They don’t trust you Anakin. They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. You must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the force."
"If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the force. Be careful of the Jedi Anakin.. only through me can you achieve a power greater than any jedi! Learn to know the dark side of the force and you’ll be able to save your wife from certan death."
and that Anakin will obtain a much greater power,than being a Jedi,including of saving lives?
If this is not pure deceival,than what it is?
Since because Anakin turns to the dark side he causes Padme's death - because he strangles her,while she is pregnant
- Anakin dream was a warning of the Force,so Anakin would not turn to the Dark Side.
Because Darth Sidious do not even teach Darth Vader/Anakin to use force lightning,not to mention other things,
like teaching Anakin to not be arrogant.
Anakin do not know to proper use the dark side,he loose to Obi Wan and this causes him to become much weaker.
Because actually Sidious was afraid of Anakin power.
So Sidious is actually a coward but also a master of deceival.
And actually Sidious deceive Anakin to help him to defeat Mace.
As for Sidious loosing to Luke,yes he lost to Luke.
Luke could have killed Sidious,using his lightsaber,but he preferred to save his father from the dark side.
Sidious was cunning but not wise.

 

I haven't read Plagueis, but that sounds more a display of Palpatine's slimy character than an indicator he wasn't strong.

He needed Anakin to help him so Anakin would have a hand in the death of a Jedi Master, hence Anakin being kind of stuck with the consequence of his decision. Sidious was holding back from continuing the lightning because he could read Anakin like a book, and was confident Anakin would intervene and cross a point of no return, if Palpatine timed it right. A lot of the events of ROTS can be traced back to Palpatine's foresight. He wants Mace to get angry, and is likely glad Mace didn't bring Anakin along initially. Mace and Anakin are basically just his puppets here.

Interesting. But in the context of the saga, it doesn't seem (to me) premonitions are caused by something that isn't already possibly destined to happen. But yeah, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, Padme probably would have survived if Anakin didn't turn.

Yeah. Sidious seemed pretty arrogant about the Sith himself; "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!" And Anakin's arrogance surely wasn't something Palpatine necessarily wanted to quell.

Darth_Nerdling speculated that Palpatine knew of the prophecy, and a major motive for his turning Anakin was to subvert the prophecy and cause a loophole by making Anakin a Sith. Even if one Sith kills the other, the Sith continue to rule.
Personally I think Sidious could take Mace one on one if Palpatine didn't have sneakier plans.

Luke didn't defeat Sidious, except perhaps by metaphorically triumphing over him with a moral victory, due to his passiveness prevailing. The reason Palpatine goads Luke into making a strike at Palpatine with his saber, is that Sidious knows Vader will block it. Just as he knew Anakin wouldn't let Mace kill him on the spot. It was to initiate a fight between Luke and Vader essentially, adding fuel to the despair Luke is already experiencing with the Rebels' plight and his currently fruitless efforts to redeem his father.

Sidious was wise, he had just gotten complacent by ROTJ, and foolishly underestimated the strength of Luke and Vader's bond.

 

A big yes to all of the rebuttals

 

I can't believe this debate is STILL going after 10 years.

Mace defeated Palpatine. Accept it. Deal with it. That is what we see on screen, that is what the movie shows us. Don't "invent" an alternate reality, based on guesswork. Accept what you see on screen. Accept what the movie actually SHOWS you.

1. Mace Windu is portrayed in the prequels as the equal of Yoda. He is a legendary Jedi, so it is not surprising that he is able to compete with, and in the end, defeat Palpatine in their duel (until Anakin intervened.)

2. The argument that Sidious planned the whole thing to the exact nth degree that we see on screen is ridiculous. Can Sidious plan his farts 8 years in advance too? Yes, Sidious has a grand plan to destroy the Jedi, by virtue of Order 66. This plan to destroy the Jedi is with or without Anakin. He doesn't know for certain that Anakin will join him. He has planted the seeds and manipulated Anakin, but in the end, the choice is Anakins. Sidious did not "plan" for four Jedi to walk into his office and duel him. For all he knew, 100 Jedi could have walked in there. Sidious did not plan for Mace to have a lightsaber pointed at his throat, while lying on his back. If that was his plan, then Sidious is an idiot. I'm sure Sidious didn't plan for Darth Maul to be killed either. Things DO go wrong in Sidious' rise to power. The moment where Mace defetats Palpatine prompting Anakin to make a choice is THE moment where Sidious was nearly defeated.

3. The argument that Anakin is the chosen one, and therefore Sidious "KNEW" that Mace couldn't kill him, because it goes against the prophecy is a ridiculous argument as well. Firstly no one knows for sure if the prophecy is true, or has been mis-read. If the prophecy is true (as it turns out to be in Return Of The Jedi), there is no wording in the prophecy of "Darth Sidious". It is simply prophesized that a chosen one will bring balance to the force. If Sidious is killed by Mace, it doesn't change anything. A future Sith Lord could emerge, and propel the galaxy into darkness. There was no "timeline" for the prophecy, and Anakin can fulfil it at any time in his life.

The only thing certain is that Anakin will fulfil the prophecy. HOW he fulfils it is unknown. He can still make choices which can propel his life into any one of a million different tangents.

4. The argument that during the duel, Sidious had his lightsaber pointed at Mace's chest at one point and could have killed him, is ridiculous as well. That is nothing more than the choreography of the fight by those making the movie, and has no plot bearing on Sidious' motivations. It's nothing.

5. Sidious was faking weakness at the end. Yes, he was. He had to. He was defeated, and was about to be killed. He was playing to Anakin's sympathy.

Sidious did not know for certain that Anakin was going to come into the room. He could probably sense Anakin coming in, shortly before he did, but when the four Jedi walked into Palpatine's office, Sidious didn't plan at that time for Anakin to come and save him. You can't plan something that exact. Upon duelling the 4 Jedi, Palpatine's plan AT THAT TIME would be to kill all four of them. Then, if Sidous managed to kill Mace during the duel (which he couldn't do in reality) he would have told Anakin that the 4 Jedi tried to kill him (which is true from a certain point of view), and the only way to save your wife is the dark side, blah-blah and he executes order 66 and everything goes to plan, anyway. Anakin sides with Palpatine because he will do ANYTHING to save his wife. Anything. Mace could have been killed by Palpatine initially, and Anakin would still want to do whatever it takes to save his wife.

Sidious' plan OBVIOUSLY was to kill Mace straight away if possible. What kind of idiot, would want to lose on purpose, have a lightsaber pointed at your throat on purpose, in the hope that Anakin would walk in at that exact time, and save him. In the end, Anakin was too late anyway, because Mace could have killed Palpatine before Anakin could even walk across the room. So if it was a grand plan by Palpatine, he didn't execute it very well, because he got it wrong by several seconds.

The reality is that Mace, legendary Jedi that he is, had Palpatine legitimately beaten. Palpatine did not orchestrate for himself to be lying on his back with Mace's lightsaber at his throat

TRUST WHAT THE MOVIE SHOWS YOU.

 

He's right everybody trust what THE MOVIE shows you..... It shows in 1 battle Sidious being confronted by 5 Jedi, resulting in Sidious killing and therefore defeating 4 Jedi masters including your precious windu. With the 5th jedi becoming the new Sith apprentice. whilst Sidious was ridiculously outnumbered. The greatest (lol) man to ever wield a lightsabre (windu) couldn't touch a weak old man, while weak old man was fighting 4 JEDI MASTERS at the same time. The argument has ended twice already but I can keep going. In the scenes leading up to Sidious' victory, some were all about Anakin needing to turn to the darkside in order to stop people from dying (Padme). Now, with the seed been planted and he knows Anakin will soon be his new apprentice. He reveals himself as the Sith lord. Sidious trusts that Anakin will run along and tell windu. (perfect time to do so don't you think, especially with Yoda and several other Jedi absent... Palpatine wouldn't think of that would he?) Because he revealed himself as the Sith lord, he knew the posse was coming. Sidious also knew windu would be an arrogant prick to Anakin by telling him to sit this one out.
The fight then starts 3 Jedi masters die quickly.... Sidious keeps windu (he chose windu due to the fact windu had been a .... to him more than any other person) alive long enough until Anakin (with the seeds planted in his head by Sidious) arrives on the scene at the exact same time Sidious throws his lightsabre out the window after a kick by windu [face laugh]. At this point Lucas states the bleeding obvious in the running commentary (fanboys hold onto for dear life). Then Sidious starts faking weakness, because he wanted Anakin to join him as a Sith.
Palpatine then uses lightning... windu deflects it back at Sidious... Sidious lets the lightning disfigure him because he knows Anakin will have more sympathy for him.
Palpatine then stops the lightning and is really putting on the fake weakness.
Then comes the crucial part in the fight. Just as WINDU LIFTS HIS HANDS HOLDING HIS LIGHTSABRE ABOVE HIS HEAD..... THIS GAVE SIDIOUS A PERFECT OPEN TARGET TO KILL WINDU WITH LIGHTNING RIGHT THERE. HE DIDN'T KILL WINDU AT THAT POINT BECAUSE THE ENTIRE FIGHT WAS TO LURE ANAKIN TO THE DARKSIDE. SIDIOUS WAS ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN ANAKIN HAD CHOSEN TO STOP WINDU,WHICH MADE HIS TURN TO THE DARKSIDE COMPLETE. NOW THE PLAN WAS COMPLETE, SIDIOUS THEN KILLS, THEREFORE DEFEATS WINDU THEN THROWS HIM OUT THE WINDOW BECAUSE HE IS DONE WITH HIM.

TO SIMPLIFY WHAT HAPPENED.... GEORGE LUCAS THE CREATOR OF STAR WARS CREATES THEN FILMS SIDIOUS KILLING 4 JEDI MASTERS INCLUDING WINDU IN THE ONE FIGHT. IT'S A FIGHT TO THE DEATH, WINDU DIES, MAKING WINDU A LOSER. THAT IS WHAT THE MOVIE SHOWS YOU
BOOM
THIS DEBATE IS OVER

 

That's not what the debate is about. The debate is about whether mace Windu legitimately had Palpatine beaten before Anakin intervened. And, yes, Mace Windu DID have Palpatine legitimately beaten.

That's because of plot necessity. Obviously Windu couldn't strike down Palpatine while Plapatine was battling the other Jedi, because it would ruin the story. DUH! You realise it's a fake movie, right? The plot requires Palpatine to kill the other 3 Jedi, so that he is left in a one-in-one battle with Windu, which is a more convenient plot circumstance, because it allows to writers of the film to put Anakin in a situation where he has to make a choice - side with Windu, or side with Palpatine.

The argument ended when the movie came out. Mace Windu legitimately defeated Palpatine BEFORE Anakin intervened. Palpatine did not plan for a lightsaber to be pointed at his own throat. Why would he? Why wouldn't he just plan to kill Mace right then and there? Why take such a huge risk, by losing a fight on purpose and gamble on Anakin making the right choice? Anakin was always going to seek the dark side to save his wife, anyway. Palpatine didn't need to lose on purpose for Anakin to turn to the dark side.

For all Palpatine knew, there could have been 100 Jedi coming, not four. He would rather have avoided that confrontation and just had them all killed via order 66, so as to not get his hands dirty. His true plan was obvious. Execute all the Jedi via order 66, and entice Anakin to the dark side via a lie that he can save his wife's impending death. If Mace did bring a few jedi to his office to arrest him, his plan would be to kill all of them. That was his broad plan. Palpatine didn't "specifically" plan to kill only three jedi, leave Windu alive so that Anakin would walk in at the exact moment he needed to, whilst mace Windu's lightsaber was pointed at his throat. That is an idiotic plan. Who the hell who make a plan like that? Why not just kill Mace? He DID try to kill Mace, but he wasn;t capable of doing it(until Anakin intervened.) Mace had him beaten. Legitimately.

Palpatine didn't need to have himself lying on his back with Mace's lightsaber pointed at his throat for his plan to work. "If" he was just capable of killing mace straight away (which he wasn't), the plan works anyway. Order 66 still happens, Anakin still joins the dark side (because he will do anything to save his wife). So why in the name of God would Palpatine deliberately lose to Mace and risk his own life? It's stupid and makes no sense. He can't plan things to that exact degree. No one can.

Yes, he had planted the seeds for Anakin to join him, but in the end, the choice was Anakins. Anakin still had a choice.

The scene of Windu lifting his hands above his head ready to strike Palpatine is shown for plot necessity, because that is the moment Anakin is about to make his choice, and it is meant to convey drama to the movie-watcher. Windu is about to kill Palpatine. It has nothing to do with Palaptine "not taking advantage of an open target." This is fake move, remember. Palpatine was beaten at that point. That is what the movie SHOWS you. Trust what the move shows you, instead of inventing utter crap that the move doesn't show you.

We know that Palpatine eventually ended up, killing all 4 jedi. No one is debating that. That's what happened. That real debate is what happened BEFORE Anakin intervened.

1.) Did Palaptine deliberately lose to Mace (before Anakin intervened)
2.) Did Palpatine legitimately lose the fight to Mace, and was legitimately about to be killed before Anakin intervened

The answer is number 2. That is what the movie SHOWS us. There is no evidence shown in the movie, that Palpatine deliberately lost to Mace (before Anakin intervened.) The movie shows Mace with his lightsaber pointed at Palpatine's throat. Trust what the movie SHOWS you. The movie does not show Palpatine deliberately losing a fight. So stop inventing fictitious stories that were not shown in the film.

Number 1 doesn't make sense. Why lose on purpose when you could just try to kill Mace straight away. If Palpatine had killed Mace before Anakin came to the room , Palpatine could still have told Anakin the same thing with the same dialogue. "The Jedi are taking over, they are trying to kill me, so I had to defend myself and kill them"

Why lose on purpose when it means you have to risk your life with a lightsaber at your throat with your entire life in someone else's hands. Only an idiot would make up that plan!

Why use a fight with Mace Windu to lure Anakin to the dark side? Anakin was already well on the way to the dark side, because it is shown that he will do ANYTHING to save his wife. Anything. Anakin would clearly have joined Palpatine, irrespective of anything related to Mace Windu, because Anakin thinks that Palpatine is the only one with the power to save the one he loves.

Palpatine didn't need to orchestrate and deliberately lose a fight to Windu for this to happen.

 

Palpatine let Mace win.

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My Thoughts Exactly.

 

1) He goofed off.
2) He telepathically "asked Anakin for help" during that meditation scene, while sitting confidently in his throne - if he had any doubts about winning, he'd flee the scene, or wouldn't be fighting with such conviction.
He had no doubts, but asked Anakin for help. => Either.he had no doubts about Anakin saving him, or about winning.
1+2) He lost on purpose.

It's plain and simple: he bluffed. Everything that happened was according to his design.

There is no "high ground", Obi-Wan meant "I'm stronger than you", he'd been holding back until finally deciding that Anakin was "lost".

Yoda had been below Sidious all the time he's been throwing discs at him, and that wasn't a problem, and he didn't need his weapon then. Whatever the reason he didn't return and fled, the "high ground" wasn't it lmao

 

Mace beat Sidious. Lucas said it himself.

 

Mace didn't. Lucas did it himself.

 

This thread is epic,has almost 50k views now.

 

And I still don't entirely know where I stand on it

 

???