Did Obi-Wan know that Anakin survived after ROTS?

How does Obi-Wan talk shop with Chewie? Where did Obi-Wan pick up Shyriiwook? Should we assume that Obi-Wan had some dealings with Wookiees during the PT era that the films didn't explore?
( Should it have been Obi-Wan who went to Kashyyyk in ROTS? )

In any event, it seems clear that Obi-Wan has been to Mos Eisley before:

BEN: Well, most of the best freighter pilots can be found here. Only
watch your step. This place can be a little rough.

 

You can get into trouble without instigating.

Anakin's already dead to Obi-wan after he's cut off his limbs and before he has caught on fire. That's why he speaks in the past tense. Anakin Skywalker is already dead to him. The fire just finishes the deed without having to do it directly and if he suffers, then it is retribution for his crimes. It may not be the Jedi way, but it is the only way to make sure that Anakin knows that he has paid the price for his sins. Obi-wan did care for Anakin, but not anymore. That ship has done sailed. He just stops caring. It's the only way he can have it both ways, as you said. He doesn't kill him with himself, but the fire will end Anakin's life. If not the injuries resulting from the fire.

 

That might be true..but i thought of it more as he was in trouble more than getting into trouble.Thats just the way i saw it.

 

Sinister your reasoning is flawed, on the one hand you say that Obi-Wan is so tender-hearted and kind that he can not bring himself to kill Anakin but at the same time you say that Obi-Wan is very cold and cruel in letting Anakin suffer terribly before dying.
These two views do not match.

Further, Obi-Wan DID try to kill Anakin, firstly by fighting him with a deadly weapon and secondly he cut off his legs and one arm and left him to burn.
If Anakin had tripped or fallen into the lava by accident that is one thing but Obi-Wan directly injures him and leaves him in a place were he will die.
Simply cutting off two legs and an arm would be enough to kill someone, perhaps they do not die directly but loss of blood will kill them or they will die from exposure as they will not be very mobile. If I cut someone legs and one arm off and leaves them on a beach with the tide coming in then I very much try to kill them.
If Palpatine had not turned up Anakin would have died and that would have been a direct result of what Obi-Wan did.

As the scene is in the movie, it is strange, Obi-Wan has fought Anakin very hard with a deadly weapon and he cuts off Anakin legs and arm and has him at his mercy but then he does not finish the job. Given Anakin injuries and were he is, Obi-Wan must be sure that he will die but this death will be slow and extremely painful. So why doesn?t Obi-Wan put an end to Anakins misery? Wanting someone to suffer greatly before he or she dies does not sound very jedi-like, they should not hate or take pleasure in the pain of others. If he does not want Anakins blood on his hands then he should rescue him because if Anakin does die then it will be Obi-Wans doing.
Perhaps if Anakin had fallen down a pit and there was no way for Obi-Wan to reach him would have worked better.

Nothing in the films suggest this. Obi-Wan clearly knows Mos Eisely quite well and the cantina too. It does not seem as he was acting on info 20 years old.
Besides Obi-Wan will need food and suplies and he does move around abit as Luke has met him at least once.

If Obi-Wan did think that Vader was dead then he would have said so, he tells Luke that Vader murdered his father and this could cause Luke to go after Vader in revenge.
So to prevent that he would add that Vader was dead as well and Luke would have no reason for vengence. No, as it is in the film Obi-Wan gives no indication that he thinks Vader is dead, he is vague but not that vague. He talks about Vader and describes all the terrible things t

 

They do match up. Before the duel, Anakin is his friend and brother. He cannot bring himself to confront him. After the duel, he no longer cares for this monster that lies before him. He realizes that Yoda is right and that the boy he knew is gone, killed by Darth Vader. In his mind, it is Vader he fought and maimed. It is Vader wearing the face of a dead man.

First off, we know that almost every time a limb is cut by a Lightsaber, the wound is cauterized. So like with Luke and Dooku not bleeding to death, Anakin will not die from losing his limbs. Obi-wan fought Anakin but though he says that he will do what he must, he's still holding back. He's not trying to kill him and in fact gives him a chance to stop fighting twice. When he leaves Anakin to burn, he is accomplishing what Yoda told him to do; killing the Sith Lord named Darth Vader. But he will not kill him directly. He will not do the deed himself. He will let him burn because it gets the job done.

Second, Obi-wan is not a Jedi today. Anakin isn't a Sith either. When they fight it is as two friends turned enemies. The battle of the heroes. He is not gaining some perverted pleasure. He is saddened and dismayed at this turn of events. He looks away because it does bother him, but not enough to do something about it other than walk away.

Doesn't mean he will go to Mos Esiley. He can go to Anchorhead for supplies. And he has met Luke, because he has visited the farm to give Luke his father's Lightsaber, but is denied.

 

He still addresses him by the name Anakin. And by the emotional charge behind the speech, he still cares for the fallen Jedi. It's hard for him to walk away, but he doesn't do the right thing and simply end the suffering. I'm sorry, but the logic you present doesn't mesh; you said he can't kill his friend, but you're saying at the "moment of truth" he isn't his friend anymore. In Obi-wan's view, the living stump lying in front of him is still Anakin Skywalker, and he addresses him as such. He doesn't call him Vader, he doesn't turn away from him as a Sith. He's still Anakin, his friend, and leaves him to burn in agony. He left his friend to die in the most painful way possible.

It's still weak writing on Lucas' part. He put the characters in a position where the obvious must be done, and there is no reason why it doesn't happen..ie, running Anakin through. Even if Anakin was fully Vader, Obi-wan, a full-fledged "Sith-killer" should make damn sure Vader is dead. Even if he wasn't "fully Vader", he still should have run Anakin through at that point. The only reason it didn't happen is that Lucas wrote himself into a corner. Nordom's suggestion works in that it takes responsibility out of Obi-wan's hands by not putting him in an obvious position where he has to act.

 

I totally agree that Obi-Wan still sees the burning lump on Mustafar as his friend, which is pretty much the entire point of his impassioned dialogue there. Even after Anakin says he hates him, Obi-Wan says he loved him. He's not happy to be out there dealing justice to Anakin; he's doing it because he thinks he must, and the brief shot of him with his face in his hands when he leaves Mustafar is supposed to show that he feels terrible about it regardless of what Anakin has become. That's the Jedi way. Obi-Wan is blaming himself for having let Anakin down, not thinking "that motha deserves to burn!"

It's hugely un-Jedi that Obi-Wan leaves Anakin there to burn alive. I can accept the explanation that he couldn't bear to run Anakin through himself and wanted to just assume the inevitable would happen after he left, I suppose, but I still think it's really un-Jedi. He should have either done the humane (and safe) thing and put Anakin out of his misery or tried to rescue him. That halfway solution of walking off and leaving him for dead when Anakin was right there in easy sight and easy reach is just stupid, and I doubt it would have happened if Lucas hadn't needed to both include that final conversation between the two of them and retain the possibility of Vader surviving.

I've also heard the explanation that Obi-Wan thought he had to scoot because he knew Palpy (or a dark presence, or whatever) was coming, but I have trouble with that one too, since it shouldn't have taken him that long to lop off Anakin's head before leaving. Besides, since when have Jedi considered self-preservation that highly? Completing his mission should have been more important than saving his own skin.

 

That is from the novel, and in either context he wasn't as much concerned with "saving his own skin" as he was with getting Padme to safety.

 

Because his friend is evil now. A murderer. A traitor. He was not feeling merciful. He wants Anakin to pay for his crimes. He calls him Anakin throughout their confrontation, because he still believes that he still has a shred of goodness within him. But once the fight is over, he refers to him in the past tense. He's speaking to him, but he's also not speaking to him. He's talking to the memory of his friend.


OBI-WAN: "You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would, destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness. You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you."

Yes, it's obvious, but he cannot do it either. Obi-wan told Yoda that he will not kill Anakin and he kept his word.

OBI-WAN: "Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin."

This isn't as weak as you think it is. There's a reason for this. It shows the difference between Obi-wan and Luke. They are similar in that they both won't kill Vader, but the difference is Obi-wan gives up on Anakin, but Luke doesn't. Obi-wan doesn't look for another solution, but Luke does. Both were sent to kill Vader, yet they refuse on the grounds of their relationship to him.


As I've said, he cannot bring himself to kill. It has to be Obi-wan's responsibility to justify Vader's hatred of him in ANH and Obi-wan's willingness to see that he dies in the OT. That Obi-wan made a choice that would get the job done, but his hands wouldn't be as soiled if he did as told.

As I said, Yoda vs Palpatine is about the Jedi vs Sith. Obi-wan vs Anakin is about two friends forced to fight.

And the novelization said that Obi-wan was not feeling merciful that day. Meaning he wanted Anakin to pay the price for his folly, even though he didn't enjoy it. He's stuck in his moral quandry as well. A Jedi is not supposed to kill a helpless person and Anakin was helpless. Just as Dooku was helpless and in Anakin's point of view, Palpatine was helpless. See, it's a

 

No they do not match because we are not talking about before the duel, we are dealing with the moment were Anakin is lying legless and minus one arm and burning to death.
You say that at this point Obi-Wan still cares so much for Anakin that he can not bear to end his life but at the same time he thinks that Anakin is gone and an evil monster is before him and this monster does not deserve the mercy of a quick kill.
It is not in a jedi's character to want to inflict needless pain and suffering even on creatures they view as evil. So being a good jedi Obi-Wan should end Anakins suffering. Also he has a job to do, kill Anakin so why not make sure? Then if Obi-Wan still cared about Anakin in some way, the humane thing to do would be to put him out of his misery.
No it is bad writing, Obi-Wans actions does not make sense, he has many reasons to end Anakins life, his orders, his code as a jedi and him caring about Anakin.
He has no good reason to just walk away.

First off, Obi-Wan DOES kill him directly as it was Obi-Wan that DIRECTLY cut off Anakins arm and legs and left him to burn alive. Had Anakin died it would have been a direct result of Obi-Wans actions. So this weak excuse does not wash, Obi-Wan killed Anakin when he cut off his arm and legs and left him to burn. The ONLY reason that Anakin survived is Palpatines doing.
Second even if lightsabers cause wounds to cauterize, cutting of someones arm and both legs will kill them unless they can get help. This person will not be able to move very far and will die from exposure eventually. In this case the enviroment is very dangerous so that makes a death even quicker. So by cutting off Anakins legs and arm Obi-Wan did try to kill him directly. Is there much difference between shooting someone in the head, killing him direclty, or shooting him in the stomach and him bleeding to death over 5 hours? Either way you would have killed the person, the only difference is how long it took.

Yes but you argued that Obi-Wan was a hermit and thus never went anywhere and did not meet with anyone over 20 years. The need for food and supplies and the movie shows this as wrong so there is no reason why Obi-Wan could not have visited Mos Eisely over the years and given his familiarity with the place it is strongly implied that he has done so.

What happened AFTER Obi-Wan told Luke is not the issue here, is wheter Obi-Wan feared that

 

He does have a good reason. He cannot kill Anakin. It's that simple. He tells Yoda he will not do it and he doesn't. He's not a Jedi here. He's just a man who is broken by his friend's betrayal and his own precieved failures. He disobeys orders just as Luke does later on. But he finds a solution in letting him burn. No, it is not the Jedi way, but it is the only way that will keep him from being a murderer in the most direct sense.

It's not the same as walking down and cutting off his head. Looking him in the eye and doing it. Obi-wan chooses a method that will prevent him from doing that. He knows it will kill Anakin, but it is better to him to do it this way, than more directly.

The difference is Obi-wan doesn't want to kill a helpless person. He will not help him, by being merciful nor by pulling him to safety.

So even if he did go to Mos Eisley, that doesn't mean that he watched the news or interacted with people, other than to get his supplies and go home.

Well as we see in ANH, Luke isn't concerned with Vader and revenge. He's concerned with becoming a Jedi. So Obi-wan had nothing to fear. If he sensed that Luke wanted revenge, he would tell him that

 

In what way is it better? He still is responsible for Anakins death, he has Anakins blood on his hands and on top of that he let Anakin die a slow, horrible death.
To me it would be worse to kill someone in a slow and very terrible way than giving them a quick kill. Which is worse, shooting someone or hitting them on the head and then burying them alive? In both cases you kill the other person but one way is quick, the other very slow. Obi-Wan has killed before, we know that and he has killed up close and personal. Why would he choose to be cruel in this instance?

You still miss the point, Obi-Wan HAS killed Anakin by cutting of his legs and arm and leaving him to burn. The only difference is that ending Anakins life quickly would spare him much suffering. You are trying to claim that Obi-Wan somehow can't kill Anakin, the movie shows this as wrong. He can and he did try. Cutting of both legs and one arm in the place where they were is death and Obi-Wans knows that. Obi-Wan does talk to Anakin after he cutting of his legs and he says that he loved him and that he failed him, so obviously he does still feel something for Anakin/Vader. If he did not care at all, why waste his breath?
Lastly Obi-Wan is not a murderer, he and Anakin were fighting and he inflicted deadly wounds on Anakin when Anakin was attacking him. So Anakin would die, it was just a matter of time and Obi-Wan would have killed him. So from the point of view of killing Anakin, being mercifull and ending his life quickly would make NO difference. Anakin is still dead, Obi-Wan still killed him, the only difference is that Obi-Wan did not let him suffer.

He still kills a helpless person, Anakin is where he is because of what Obi-Wan did and leaving him there will mean his death. So either way he kills him.

We do not know what Obi-Wan did or did not do but even you have agreed that is not unreasonable for Obi-Wan to go to Mos Eisely from time to time. There he might come across news from the galaxy and in those news Vader's name might come up.
Also Obi-Wan still has an interest in what happens in the galaxy, he wants put an end to the empire and he thinks that Luke might be the key to that. But why would he not keep up to date on news from galaxy? If Luke could be trained then he would have to go up against the empire and Palpatine so why not listen to what is going on?

Luke has no idea how his father died, he could have been killed in an accident, illness or any number of ways so he would not be thinking about revenge anyway. He DOES still have an interest in his father and Obi-Wan is aware of this. So by telling Luke that his father was murdered and giving the name of the murderer a

 

According to EU Obi-Wan did know...I think. It was in that book, "Dark Force RIsing" or something. HOw bad is that, that i can't remember the title. WEll of course he knew because he knew Darth Vader was Lukes father.

 

It seems safe to assume that not everyone in the GFFA had heard of Vader, since Luke apparently hadn't before the conversation in Ben's house. So if in fact Vader was mentioned on the Holonet as Dark Lord depicts, I'm thinking that probably wasn't still happening later on, up to and including the time of ANH.

 

It's better because as I said, he doesn't take his saber and kill Anakin directly. It's not about the best way to kill Anakin, but the best way not to do it directly. As to why he would be cruel, because he's been betrayed by his friend and brother. Obi-wan has no problem killing men who he cared nothing for at all, like Maul and Grievous. But this was different. He cared for Anakin. Fought with him, lived with him, grew with him. They bonded in a way that should not have been unbroken, that the bonds they shared were all they had in the universe. And Anakin choose to break their bond. Their trust. Their friendship. Obi-wan wanted Anakin to know that the path he took lead to this and he wants him to be punished for it. And he cannot bring himself to be merciful to a monster.

Obi-wan cut off Anakin's limbs to stop the fight. As he landed, Anakin started to slide down. He starts to reach for him, but then stops himself. His speech is his way of venting his feelings. Telling Anakin that he let him down. That he let them all down. That he blew it. When he sees Anakin catch fire, he knows that this will kill him and thus it saves him from having to do the deed. And he wants Anakin to pay for his crimes.

It may seem cruel, but right now, he didn't give a damn.

But not with his Lightsaber blade. He lets the fire finish Anakin off. Anakin made his choice and so did he.

Yes, Luke could be trained. If the Force wishes it. He's not going to want to listen to the same crap over and over. Best to not pay attention and get bothered by what's going on. Instead, he'd just rather focus on

 

The last scene is very powerful, but also strange. OBW didn't think clearly. He acted somewhat Anakin-ish. OBW should either have killed Anakin once and for all, or he should have decapitated Anakin as he did, and then brought him back - it seems an impossible task, but not necessarily - as we know Anakin had still good in him.

The only way it works now is for OBW to have recognized his victory over Anakin as Anakin is lying defenseless and then leaving him to the will of the force. The way you describe the book (I haven't read it) things doesn't make sense. OBW would not leave Anakin suffering just to let him suffer - it isn't the Jedi way. The point of that duel is not just hero vs. hero, or good guy vs bad guy. It is also about a moral highground. OBW had the high ground both morally and in the fight - he chose to take it. He didn't kill Anakin like Anakin had slaughtered younglings. And ultimately, the moral high ground wins. Had Anakin/Vader died, so would the hope for the Jedi die - he was the key to getting close to Palpatine.

 

Again, Obi-Wan DOES kill Anakin directly, he cuts off his legs and arm and leaves him to burn. If Palpatine had not come then Anakin would have died and that would be the direct result of what Obi-Wan did.

Secondly, according to you Obi-Wan on the one hand feels "ohh I can not kill Anakin, he is my friend, my student" while at the same time feeling "ha, Anakin you ******, burn you evil ******, feel the pain, taste the flames, suffer you ****, I hope it takes you a real long time to die".
This seems totally conflicting. When Yoda ordered Obi-Wan to kill Anakin he resisted but when we get to Mustafar he seems to have accepted that he must to this. And he does TRY to kill Anakin so he is able to do it.
So that does not wash. It is possible that Obi-Wan felt that Anakin was a right evil monster and deserved to suffer horribly before he died. But this firstly conflicts with the jedi ethics and second it does not fit with Obi-Wan's character.
He has never showed himself to be cruel and wanting people to suffer.
And it seems to be a huge and not very belivable leap in his character to go from "oh I care about Anakin, I can not hurt him" to "Anakin you *****, die horribly!!!".

Again you miss the point, what happens after is not relevant as Obi-Wan could not have know this when he told Luke about Vader and his father.
Luke is capabe of feelings of anger and wanting payback so if Obi-Wan somehow can read Lukes mind he could see that.
Again Obi-Wan has NO reason not to mention that Vader is dead if that is what he belived.

In closing, given that Obi-Wan could have heard news from the empire and that Vader was not a secret and that he never mentions Vader death to Luke very clearly indicate that Obi-Wan knew that Vader was alive at the time of ANH.
Add to that the lack of suprise when Obi-Wan meets Vader on the DS, Vader feels somehting and is confused and uncertain what it means at first. Nothing like this happens with Obi-Wan.

Regards
Nordom

 

I am Obi-Wan, the ultimate Jedi! I shall henceforth bring this here headless corpse back to the light! There is still good in him!

What the **** are you talking about?

 

It's the fire that kills Anakin, not Obi-wan. Obi-wan just injured him.

You keep ignoring that Obi-wan is not being a Jedi when he does this. He's being an ordinary person. A human with feelings that were just trampled on because his friend betrayed him. He fights Anakin because he knows that he has to, not because he wants to. And he doesn't want to kill him. That's why he tries talking to him before they fight and later, before the fight ends, he gives him two chances to stop fighting. He doesn't want to kill him. And when Anakin comes at him, Obi-wan reacted as he felt best by cutting off his limbs. If Anakin asked for his help, he would've helped him. But he doesn't. He doesn't show signs that he can change. That he wants to change. Obi-wan's very conflicted. He wants to help Anakin, but knows that he can. He wants Vader to die, but he cannot bring himself to do it directly. It may be indirect, but it's far better in his mind that he didn't slice his head off or run him through, as opposed to letting him burn to death.

Obi-wan is surprised when he sees Vader. He slows down and as a look on his face. Because he's surprised to know that he is alive. He left him to burn. Obi-wan could've heard, but then again, he might not have. There's nothing definiative.

As to telling Luke, no he doesn't know what happens. He just tells Luke and when he doesn't sense feelings of revenge, he doesn't tell him that he left Vader for dead. Again, Lucas said that Obi-wan left him for dead and there is nothing in ANH that points to him knowing that Vader is alive or dead.

 

A little fun place called the editing room has this interesting take on Mustafar. Since this is a fam-friendly-forum, I have taken the liberty to exchange the bad words.

***
HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN

(comically) Liar!

He chokes her.

NATALIE PORTMAN

(collapsing)

Urk!

HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN

Oh baby, I?m sorry. I only force choke you because I love you. Come back to me baby.

EWAN MCGREGOR

Hayden! What the hell, your whole reason for turning was to save her.
That was completely stupid.

HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN

Bah, the Jedi are stupider! They didn?t know I was married to Natalie despite the fact that we live together, which Ian figured out in seconds. They didn?t know Ian was a Sith. They asked me to get close to him, knowing full well I am confused and that he?s manipulative. God, the assassin from Attack of the Clones allegedly couldn?t be sent by Christopher Lee because ?it?s not in his character.? Face it, it?s a miracle the Jedi survived this long.

EWAN MCGREGOR

Anti-Jedite!

They DUEL. Then they DUEL some more. Afterwards, they do some more DUELLING. Then there?s another DUEL, a little DUELLING, and finally a DUEL.

EWAN MCGREGOR

It?s over, Hayden. I?ve got the high ground, just like Darth Maul did in Episode 1 right before I killed him successfully. Ignoring that, if you jump over to me, I will cut your JUNK off.

HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN

You underestimate my power to decide not to jump to the low ground in front of you where I will be able to safely continue dueling, but to instead try to jump all the way over you and get my JUNK cut off!

He JUMPS and gets his JUNK cut RIGHT THE HECK OFF. Then he is COMPLETELY BURNED.

HAYDEN CHRISTENSEN

#%#$%&^$*&!!!!!

EWAN MCGREGOR

I?m leaving, Hayden! Even though you are writhing in agony, I won?t do the humane thing and put you out of your misery. You?re the JERK, though.

He leaves. IAN arrives shortly thereafter...

***

No matter how it gets sliced, Kenobi looks really bad for leaving AnaVader the way he did. If he was truly Vader to him, why did he call him Anakin. (And I could care less about addressing him in past tense)

 

In the ANH novel Obi-Wan refers to Vader in the present tense during the conversation in his dwelling. Then again, that's the novel. However, in light of the PT, it stands to reason that Qui-Gon would tell the Jedi that Vader was alive, if they could not sense this on their own.

 

Well, to be real Fenn, Vader wasn't Father Skywalker when ANH's dialogue was written. As for Qui-Gon, I agree. There is nothing to suggest that Jinn WOULDN't tell them Vader survived. Yoda knew, and last I checked, there weren't any cantinas on Dagobah.

Maybe Qu Rahn told him.

 

Two things.

1. Why do you assume that Qui-gon would tell them about this, when he didn't tell them that Palpatine was a Sith and that Anakin killed in retaliation for his mother's death?

2. Obi-wan isn't supposed to be looked upon in a flattering light. He made a choice and one that he could live with. It gives Vader a reason to hate Obi-wan and makes Luke's impact all the greater, because he doesn't turn his back on Anakin.

 

"Assume nothing" but I don't see how QG could possibly benefit or be somehow morally restricted from telling the Jedi about Palpatine or Anakin/Vader, or Vader being alive. It's just another plot hole. The force ghosts in the OT have absolutely no such dilemmas. They guide and inform Luke as much as they can. What's stopping QG, being a sadist??

And I don't read OBW's actions as horrific or turning his back on Anakin. Had he really done that, he would have killed him. IMHO, he left him to the will of the force.

 

OMG. If Leia knew of someone called "Vader", then the Jedi knew as well in ANH.