Did Palpatine Care About Anakin/Vader?

When I watch this scene again, it shows me the reality of the Sith "triumph". Behind all the bs and posturing, it comes down to these two on a riverbank in hell. Seeing the charred lump of the Sith who was going to become "more powerful" than anyone else, unable to even crawl; reduced to waiting for his Master to save him, reduced to eternal servitude. Despite all the damage they will manage to do, that moment on Mustafar shows me the pathetic, hollow nature of their victory.


And later on, maybe Sids "wanted more" from a new apprentice when he'd seen Vader fail over the years. He saw Vader as a failed project, and wanted a new model, a coffee mug without a broken handle. Maybe because of the circumstances of Vader's turning, he never totally, 100% adopted the Sith philosophy; his flaw being the tiny buried remnant of his former self that Luke was able to ressurrect.

 

I don't buy that. I see something completely different. Though burned alive on Mustafar, Vader's peerless strength through the Force kept him alive. To me, Vader trying to crawl up the slope is amazing. Nothing can keep the guy down, nothing at all.

Again, I can't buy it. To me, it shows that they took the Jedi's best shot and they stood firm. Far from hallow, galactic domination and the eradication of the Jedi Order, the 2 main goals were accomplished. It wasn't a perfect victory, but Vader learned a powerful lesson on Mustafar and instead of dying he became the most feared man in the galaxy.

Seen Vader fail? When/Where/How? It's not a slight against Vader that Luke was stronger. Apprently, according to GL, Luke equals Vader's unsuited strength. Vader got hurt BUT STILL BECAME 80% AS POWERFUL AS PALPATINE. Palpatine is always looking out for that next great apprentice to further the Sith and their legacy. Vader new what he risked by being a Sith, if a more powerful one came along, than Palpatine would want him. But I never believed any of this crap people talk about that Palpatine was specifically displeased with Vader. Vader did a great job for Palpatine, he was Palpatine's greatest apprentice.

I don't think he saw Vader as a "lost project". He basically kept the galaxy in line. Palpatine prefered Luke to Vader because he could be stronger but as you see in ROTJ, he was content with Vader back as his right hand man.

I really can't argue this point, because in Shadows of the Empire, Vader says not being able to get rid of all of Anakin was his greatest flaw, so your right.

 

Seen Vader fail? When/Where/How? It's not a slight against Vader that Luke was stronger. Apprently, according to GL, Luke equals Vader's unsuited strength. Vader got hurt BUT STILL BECAME 80% AS POWERFUL AS PALPATINE. Palpatine is always looking out for that next great apprentice to further the Sith and their legacy. Vader new what he risked by being a Sith, if a more powerful one came along, than Palpatine would want him. But I never believed any of this crap people talk about that Palpatine was specifically displeased with Vader. Vader did a great job for Palpatine, he was Palpatine's greatest apprentice.

Well Vader failed to stop the rebellion and failed to turn his son to the darkside. I wouldnt exactly call those success stories. Also 80% against Palps is not enough you need 100-120% to stop him. Well Palps did want another apprentice and luke presented that opportunity. Palps was displeased with Vader. If Vader did a great job for Palps there would be no need for luke and understand Dooku did a great job too huh LOL.

 

Palpatine? Care about someone or something? No, I don't really see that. Why would Palpatine care about Darth Vader. He was moments away from replacing him with Luke! He obviously did not matter to him. The only thing Palpatine "cares about" is the Dark side, his precious empire, and power. Nothing more.

 

Yay! We agree on something!

 

I agree he was Palpatine's right hand man for far to long, but hardly a slave.

Interestingly, wouldn't you agree that the rebellion would have been destroyed at Endor if not for Luke Skywalker? The destinies of the Rebellion and Skywalker became one. If the Skywalkers had never lived honestly, I don't think anything could have toppled the Empire. Darths Sidious and Vader would have ruled for a very long time.

I'm starting to get the feeling your not a big fan of Darth Vader? What exactly were the plans Sidious had for Vader? He said that together that they would unlock every secret of the Force. Yes, I don't think that they did that together. Honestly, what big plans did Sidious have for Vader besides that? Sidious wasn't going to live very long after ROTS if Vader had not have been injured. But Sidious gained an Empire, with the help of Vader and they ruled for 25 years. Sidious also figured out how to cheat death so what does he have to complain about? the rebellion? I never really thought that Sidious thought much about the rebellion but maybe I'm wrong. Like I said before, I don't think Sidious was specifically displeased with Vader. Like, if I had such and such for an apprentice, I would have crushed the rebellion by now. Vader did a good job for Sidious. I'm sure Sidious thought Vader did a good job. Except that if he could get someone stronger, he would. Don't you think Dooku did a good job for Sidious? Maul I'm sure did pretty good. But Sidious just wanted someone stronger and stronger. It doesn't have anything to do with who did a good job or not, just who is stronger.

 

Note: When Vader was burnt, Sidious put his hand on his forehead to keep him alive, some Sith Power.

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-=Assasin Droid=-

 

I don't think Palpatine cared about anyone. Not even Darth Maul or Count Dooku. Anakin was a means to an end for him. The only reason he saved Anakin's life on Mustafar was because the Sith was finally ruling things and since Anakin was already trained, he didn't have the patience or the time to train another Sith apprentice. So, what better alternative to saving energy and time for himself than by saving Anakin?

In the end Sidious tries to influence Luke to kill Vader so that's proof that Palpatine never cared about Anakin.

 

the problem with your argument is that if and i assume there is, if there is any additional training to becoming a Sith Anakin wasn't trained at all.

Dooku insinuates to Yoda that he has learned a lot by going to the dark side, he never admits to being a sith in AotC, but if Dooku isn't just talking **** then your argument doesn't hold up.

Let's make no mistake, Dooku is a bad dude, he wipes the floor with Kenobi, destroys Anakin and fights Yoda to a draw in order.

That is no small feat and i don't think Mace or Yoda could do the same.

Anakin had learned absolutely nothing from Palpantine at the time of the duel, no training what so ever.

if he is just a means to an end, but Sidious decides to save him anyway, why didn't he even think about saving Darth Maul who he had trained for at least a decade?

this to me is contradictory.

 

Palpatine is RUTHLESS. He doesn't give a crap about anyone but himself, except if others are helping him accomplish his goals.

 

Gosh, am I that transparent?

I actually have the same regard for DV that I hold for Shakespeare's Macbeth and Richard III. Which is quite a compliment to Vader. This type of character is fascinating - you don't like/dislike them but you can't stop watching them as they go to any length to get what they want, then are destroyed by the very qualities that drove them on.

 

I think that is fanon. I've never seen any actual proof that Sidious was using Sith powers.

I think the reason he saved him was because he needed someone right away. Finding and then training any apprentice would take longer than it would have training Vader. Sidious needed help restoring order to the galaxy. I agree that Vader still had a bit of Sith training ahead of him no doubt. As for not saving Maul, it would have been difficult to run out and do it. Plus, Maul wasn't even strong enough to risk it.

 

Thanks LordVader66. This was precisely what I was saying. We all know that Vader was deep into the dark side, but a Force choke was the only evidence from the OT that was saw of any dark side power displayed by Vader. Palpatine/Sidious may have schooled him about Sith history and all, but his being able to tap into the dark side wasn't really hard to do once he already turned.

 

Lucas does comment on it in the commentary track of ROTS. He says its the only time we ever see any form of attachment, affection etc from Palpatine when he comments on Anakin being alive and kneeling and putting his hand on Vaders head to help keep him alive.

Of course he is back to his old self when Vader wakes up in the suit as we see him smiling at Vaders misery and hate.

 

Even this, I think, is more or less just Palpatine's way of showing that he doesn't want to have to start all over with another apprentice. I think he wants to save Vader purely for what Vader can help Palpatine accomplish and NOT because he cares about the general well being of Vader.

 

I think there is a general misconception out there. Yes, Palpatine saved Vader because he didn't want to start over, but he also wanted Vader. A lot of this is covered in the Dark Lord novel. Palpatine needed Vader alive because he knew no other possible apprentice could be found in the galaxy. Further, he still believed Vader could become as powerful as he was destined to be as a Jedi. Through the dark side of the Force, your will plays a much bigger role in power. The stronger your will, the stronger you hate something, the more powerful you can be. Destroying all of what remained of Anakin would have boasted Vader's power greatly.

 

I think the whole "Palpatine was dissapointed with Vader" thing is overstated much of the time. Palpatine did eventually become dissapointed with Vader but I think it was a slow process that culminated in ROTJ. By the end of ROTS Palpatine is still very pleased with Vader. IMO it was Luke that showed the Emperor that Vader wasn't what he hoped he would be. But prior to that I think he was still content with Vader (as Vader was still the best apprentice he could possibly have).

 

I would agree with this Tarados. Sids had no one else to draw from in terms of potential Sith stock until Luke came along, but you can see that Sids and Vader were becoming a little testy with one another by the time ROTJ comes along. Vader is more and more obsessed with Luke and Sids even looks annoyed with him, when it becomes obvious Vader has his own agenda and starts to not fully comply with Sids direct orders, "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear?..."

Did Sids care for Vader? In a way he did, so much invested after all, and that scene where he puts his hand on Vaderkin's burnt forehead is touchingly macabre, and before that, the way Sids looks of wistfully in the distance as he says, "I sense Lord Vader is in danger..." But as the saga progresses we see that Sids might have cared more for the next big thing, and in the case of ROTJ, it was Luke. After Dooku, it seems that Sids had a thing for younger Sith potentials anyway. When he says to Grievous about Dooku, "Soon I will have a new apprentice, one FAR younger and MORE powerful..." it seems important that it be someone less seasoned, less set in their ways, exhibiting raw power but perhaps more malleable mentally and emotionally. Or maybe Sids just had a thing for young blond Sith potentials.

 

Palpatine, like all criminals, child molesters, and abusing parents, is capable of the emotion of genuine caring

when and only when

it does not interfere with what he thinks he needs to be and remain happy, satisfied, and comfortable.

For Palpatine, this results in a glimmer of genuine sentiment ... on occasion. The occasion of finding him on Mustafar is the incident that most readily stands out.

I forget what SW book it's in, where the author describes exactly how "the dark side clouds everything." He says it's like interference. Yoda, or whatever Jedi, meditates in the Force, tuning into whatever he is attempting to see or sense, when suddenly -- BZZZZZZZ! Something cuts in, and blocks out whatever it was they were listening to.

Palpatine's problem is a lot like that. When an emotion of genuine caring doesn't get in the way of anything important to him, it can come through. He probably made a lot of sincere-sounding political speeches that way. But let an emotion of genuine caring arise on a collision course with what he's told himself is important and -- BZZZZZZZ! It doesn't make it.

Palpatine's ability to care is greatly impeded and handicapped by what he's been taught, what he's been through, and what he believes is desirable for a Sith.

 

Palpatine only cared about ruling the galaxy and being drunk with power and his usage of the dark side. Vader/Anakin is just a tool to accomplish this heavy task in order to keep the Emperor in power. It's all about power!!!

 

LLL wrote, "Palpatine, like all criminals, child molesters, and abusing parents, is capable of the emotion of genuine caring"

Palpatine's caring for Anakin is similar to the emotion the accused John Mark Karr's expressed when he said he "loved" JonBenet Ramsey: a feeling that is self-referential and not directed towards the supposed object of one's love but rather reflected upon oneself. It is artificial and only serves to further the desires and aims of the perpretator of such false caring and love. The object(s) are but means towards feeling that one would not otherwise have in order to advance in one's objectives.

 

Palpatine's caring for Anakin is similar to the emotion the accused John Mark Karr's expressed when he said he "loved" JonBenet Ramsey: a feeling that is self-referential and not directed towards the supposed object of one's love but rather reflected upon oneself.

Most of the time, this is true. However, in situations where the self is not involved, or the aims of the self are not at odds with a glimmer of genuine emotion, that glimmer does in fact slip through.

It's all situational. Since Palpy is a pretty sick puppy, those "situations" are about as rare as hen's teeth. But -- as evidenced on Mustafar -- they can and do occur.

I've known a Palpy or two in my time, and stand by my original assessment.

 

I don't agree with his wanted to test Vader's loyalty to the dark side. He tested that against Count Dooku when he had Anakin cut his head off. It simply came down to not having any time.

I never got the impression Palpatine felt that Vader was in danger throughout his duel with Yoda. The movie seemed to portray it as a spur of the momment feeling. After Yoda had been defeated, Palpatine watched over the clones as they searched for Yoda. To search the entire senate, it had to have taken a while. After the clones were dismissed, he ordered his shuttle ready because he sensed Lord Vader was in danger.

 

Palpatine cared about Vader's physical well being because he wanted a strong apprentice to help him dominate the galaxy. However, as is plainy shown, he didn't care at all about Vader emotionally. At the end of ROTS he intentionally lies to Vader to create emotional turmoil to fuel his strength. Vader was a weapon to Palpatine nothing more IMO. He cared about Vader because he wanted to be able to use Vader to his own ends. On Mustafar I think Palpatine's gentleness with Anakin is more out of relief, seeing that his weapon wasn't damaged beyond repair.

As to why Anakin was more important to him than Maul or Dooku, it's because in the scheme of things they were replaceable. Palpatine, Yoda, and Mace were leaps and bounds ahead of their peers when it came to mastery of the force and Anakin had the potential to exceed them all given his midichlorian count. Now Maul and Dooku were no pushovers, but in the grander scheme of the Jedi and Sith Orders they were still far from the best, which is what Palpatine could've had with Anakin had it not been for the Mustafar fight.